How Canon is KOTOR?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2004-05-09 11:45pm

How canon is Knights of the Old Republic?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-09 11:51pm

The story itself like much like most the games is deemed low level official.

It's essentially in the same boat as X-Wing and TIE Fighter and their ilk.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-05-10 01:21am

I'd say that the events in that 4000 b.r. year really happened, but a person can't take 20 blaster rifle shots before going down, nor have they really crappy ranges or thermal detonators that can't kill a wamp rat.

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » 2004-05-10 08:12pm

The plot and general events would be low level official, just like Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. KotOR is complicated by how it can end light or dark.

The mechanics however, you can just throw right out. =)

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-05-14 12:01am

Actually, Light Side/Dark Side endings go 'Light Side wins, Dark Side is a vision they have IF they'd choosen the dark side'

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2004-05-14 12:28am

Solauren wrote:Actually, Light Side/Dark Side endings go 'Light Side wins, Dark Side is a vision they have IF they'd choosen the dark side'

Where's this from?

To my knowledge, the way to know which ending really happened is to see what the sequel says happened.

I think cutscenes are generally admissable, as well, since they follow the story and tend to avoid the game mechanics.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-05-14 03:45am

Mad wrote:
Solauren wrote:Actually, Light Side/Dark Side endings go 'Light Side wins, Dark Side is a vision they have IF they'd choosen the dark side'
Where's this from?

To my knowledge, the way to know which ending really happened is to see what the sequel says happened.

I think cutscenes are generally admissable, as well, since they follow the story and tend to avoid the game mechanics.

Not sure about that policy, but in Jedi Knight, the official line is that Kyle took the Light Side path, and this has been established in several books and also later games and comics.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2004-05-14 04:31am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Mad wrote:
Solauren wrote:Actually, Light Side/Dark Side endings go 'Light Side wins, Dark Side is a vision they have IF they'd choosen the dark side'
Where's this from?

To my knowledge, the way to know which ending really happened is to see what the sequel says happened.

I think cutscenes are generally admissable, as well, since they follow the story and tend to avoid the game mechanics.
Not sure about that policy, but in Jedi Knight, the official line is that Kyle took the Light Side path, and this has been established in several books and also later games and comics.

At the same time, some of the Jedi Outcast literature mentioned that Kyle gave up using the Force because of visions of the damage he could do if he fell to the Dark Side. It was vague enough that I wasn't sure if this referred to the Dark Side ending of Jedi Knight, the events of Mysteries of the Sith, or both. MOTS probably wouldn't have been described as a vision, though.

So there is likely a precedent, but a single case may not be enough to argue a policy per se.

-- Joe Momma

Edited because I'm a spaz who hits the submit button too soon.

Daltonator · Post by **Daltonator** » 2004-05-14 05:12am

Video games have no canon or official status in and of themselves.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-05-14 06:09am

Really? I tought the story had *some* canon level.

So things like a rogue admiral Zaarin (TIE-fighter) is non-canon?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-14 06:13am

Dalton, what the hell? Most of the stories that don't contradict and the light endings DO have Low Official status...

You flip out or something?

Daltonator · Post by **Daltonator** » 2004-05-14 08:03am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Dalton, what the hell? Most of the stories that don't contradict and the light endings DO have Low Official status...

You flip out or something?

I generally go by Wayne Poe's rules of canon. Unless something's changed; then of course I would like a source if you have one.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2004-05-14 08:30am

Daltonator wrote:I generally go by Wayne Poe's rules of canon. Unless something's changed; then of course I would like a source if you have one.

Been changed for a long time.

From the Jedi Council:

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'

Returning to the question at hand. Yes, Star Wars Gamer is part of continuity, though as game material, there is room for interpretation.

Bolded some of the relevant parts. Basically, games have official status. But the gameplay itself is considered "interpretation," and doesn't really hold much status. But since the games are a part of continuity, the overall events hold official status (except where contradicted by higher-level materials and no rationalization can be found, of course).

So the overall story (and cutscenes) of the games are pretty reliable, but "Ace" Azameen in X-Wing Alliance probably didn't take out a Star Destroyer all by himself (gameplay considerations), or perform any exact maneuvers you may have pulled, nor did he fly the Millennium Falcon at Endor (contradicted by the movie).

And while Kyle in Dark Forces put a halt to Dark Trooper production, I'm pretty sure he didn't personally slaughter the entire stormtrooper complement of multiple Imperial bases in the process.

Daltonator · Post by **Daltonator** » 2004-05-14 09:04am

Wow, news to me. Thanks, Mad.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-05-14 09:46am

I'd disagree in saying that as a hard rule the events are offical while the 'gameplay' is not. Both are possibly valid in terms of the universe as both effect the other. For example you might say Zarin's warlording is offical, but the missions of Style are not. Fine then, but then the question becomes if the missions are not offical how do we know Zarin did what he did or do you just make it up?

I generaly leave Games the WAY out of it unless real offical sources explictly refrence them and then only that. Quite a few of the novels and TM's do refrence events in their own way, we can leave it at that.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-05-14 12:52pm

Actually, the missions themselves are good, just not as depicted

i.e Steele did fly a Missile Boat into battle and nearly shot down the Rebel Flagship, just probably not nearly as easy as depicted in the game play

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-05-27 12:51pm

I think the basic light side story is official and dark side is a vision since if star forge survives the sith will overun the republic.

"I'm the dark lord reborn, bow to me " Darth Revan.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-27 02:24pm

The story of most games (some are more or less irreconcilable, though that won't stop ultra-completist TFN fanboys from trying) is equal is canonical weight to any other comic or novel.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-27 02:26pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:I'd disagree in saying that as a hard rule the events are offical while the 'gameplay' is not. Both are possibly valid in terms of the universe as both effect the other. For example you might say Zarin's warlording is offical, but the missions of Style are not. Fine then, but then the question becomes if the missions are not offical how do we know Zarin did what he did or do you just make it up?

The Steele Chronicles. And besides, say the story necessitates that a certain facility was raided and a Star Destroyer was taken out. Fine. You just don't include stuff like flight mechanics. Maybe the "how" was different then what was explicitly in the game.

Chris OFarrell wrote:I generaly leave Games the WAY out of it unless real offical sources explictly refrence them and then only that. Quite a few of the novels and TM's do refrence events in their own way, we can leave it at that.

Not LFL policy, and thus irrelevent.

Joe Momma wrote:[snip]

It was because of MotS.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-27 02:46pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:I'd disagree in saying that as a hard rule the events are offical while the 'gameplay' is not. Both are possibly valid in terms of the universe as both effect the other. For example you might say Zarin's warlording is offical, but the missions of Style are not. Fine then, but then the question becomes if the missions are not offical how do we know Zarin did what he did or do you just make it up?

The best way is to treat it like you would historically based computer game. Accept the basic facts occurred and try and sort the details as best can be by reference to other sources.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-05-27 03:57pm

As I recall from KOTOR 2 preview material, the Jedi have been pimped by the Sith and you're runnin for your life. That doesn't sound like the cuddly sweetness and light ending of KOTOR to me, which is all good news. Peace and cuddlyness are dull, plus it'd require that I cuddle Yoda.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-27 03:59pm

White Haven wrote:As I recall from KOTOR 2 preview material, the Jedi have been pimped by the Sith and you're runnin for your life. That doesn't sound like the cuddly sweetness and light ending of KOTOR to me, which is all good news. Peace and cuddlyness are dull, plus it'd require that I cuddle Yoda.

Have they distinctly said that?

YOU can be on the run...and the flow of logic is still relativly the same.

Given that at the ending of the dark side you're all but invincible...not much of game.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-05-27 05:10pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
White Haven wrote:As I recall from KOTOR 2 preview material, the Jedi have been pimped by the Sith and you're runnin for your life. That doesn't sound like the cuddly sweetness and light ending of KOTOR to me, which is all good news. Peace and cuddlyness are dull, plus it'd require that I cuddle Yoda.
Have they distinctly said that?

YOU can be on the run...and the flow of logic is still relativly the same.

Given that at the ending of the dark side you're all but invincible...not much of game.

Like I already said.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-05-27 05:12pm

They're not allowing char imports, so I'd say it's a good bet you don't play the same character, unless someone's gone over your memory with white-out /again/. I'll find the source material for this and post it up later, I'm at work now so my gaming-site-browsing has to be at least somewhat curtailed, yes?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-27 05:22pm

White Haven wrote:They're not allowing char imports, so I'd say it's a good bet you don't play the same character, unless someone's gone over your memory with white-out /again/. I'll find the source material for this and post it up later, I'm at work now so my gaming-site-browsing has to be at least somewhat curtailed, yes?

Actually from what's given they already have stated that you were a Jedi with no memory and a lacking of the connection of the Force.

They also stated that within the E3 show that Revan himself was out there on the Outer Rim on an unknown mission.