X-wing vs. ISD

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-27 01:10am

Okay, so I know the games are to be ignored in terms of mechanics, but I've been playing XWA again recently and today I did a little mission where I single-handedly (in an X-wing) took down an ISD and its wing of fighters. Now, I'm fairly certain that everyone here would cry, "Bah, what a load of crap. Couldn't happen." I don't mean to challenge or anything, but I'm just kinda curious why. I did a search but didn't come up with any threads on the topic...

So what's to say a sufficiently skilled pilot couldn't single-handedly take down an ISD? Just curious, not looking to start any fights or anything.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-27 01:16am

Okay let's look at this in the ultimate simplisitc form.

The X-Wing could never pump out enough energy EVER to lower the ISD's shield at the rate they would dissipate the incoming blasts.

Literally there is nothing the X-Wing could do unless it was armed with Exaton ranged missiles.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-05-27 01:17am

It wouldnt work because an X-Wing would be firing kiloton range shots and megaton level protorps at a capital ship that has teraton level shielding and hundreds of weapons, not to mention 72 fighters that are more than powerfull enough to shoot the X-Wing down in a few hits regardless of how skilled the pilot is.

Even if the pilot somehow dodged every shot the ISD and all its fighters took at it, it still just doesnt have anywhere near the firepower to do anything to it.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-27 01:17am

I don't think a single X-Wing's torpedo ordinance could overwhelm the shielding of an ISD and then inflict enough damage to incapacitate it without gross incompetence (intentionally lowering or not shifting shields; not activating the secondard bridge if the main observation deck gets a pair of protons).

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-27 01:27am

Okay, that's pretty straight-forward enough.

Out of curiosity, do we know how fast ISD shields can dissipate energy? My thinking here basically follows the line that perhaps, though the X-wing's individual shots are relatively meager, they could wear down the shields over time. Ghost Rider, you stated that the ISD would dissipate the shots too easily.

I guess, in general, my reason for asking comes from a false premise: that the behavior of modern game programming AI is even remotely parallel to the behavior and proficiency of a trained, hardened Imperial pilot or gunner, thereby coloring my base-level conception of the difficulty of this feat, firepower not withstanding.

The strategy I followed in the game was to simply exhaust the fighters (i.e. shoot 'em all down, 'til there were none left), then head in and shoot the vulnerable "weapon system" clusters on the ISD (which, of course, aren't covered by the shields

), thereby rendering the ISD totally incapable of retaliating. Following that, I shot out its engines, rendering it incapable of escaping (although it wasn't inclined to try anyway). Then, it was a matter of hammering away until it blew up.

*sigh* Game mechanic brainbug, I guess.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-27 01:35am

Given the Queen's Yacht for an inkling of how bad it would be for the X-Wing.

The game mechanis have to be skewed to your favor.

Look at the mechanics they programmed for Crusiers.

Literally they wallow there with firing only minor guns, have as much range as you do...perhaps a bit better with some gun but not nearly the ranges the movies have shown, and none of which do any more damage then at most your heaviest shots. In fact all the battles are determined by who's side has better pilots.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-27 01:48am

Ghost Rider wrote:Given the Queen's Yacht for an inkling of how bad it would be for the X-Wing.

...huh? What do you mean?

The game mechanics have to be skewed to your favor.

It's too bad, too. It'd be nice to see what a "real" SW flight sim would be like.

Look at the mechanics they programmed for Crusiers.

<snip>

Yeah, I see your point, of course. Add on top of that the simple fact that everything moves too damn slow. Standard X-wing speed in the games is 100 MGLT, which works out to roughly 378 km/hr. Given that Star Destroyers can pull thousands of Gs...

Although, to be fair, they do seem to move pretty slow relative to each other in the films as well...is there any speculation as to why this is?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-27 01:54am

McC wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Given the Queen's Yacht for an inkling of how bad it would be for the X-Wing.
...huh? What do you mean?

Her shield disspation.

Seriously if that's for a vehicle of that size, and if we just upgrade it to an ISD size disregarding power generation factors or military hardware improvements. The X-Wing is hard pressed against that vehicle, let alone the ISD.

McC wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:The game mechanics have to be skewed to your favor.
It's too bad, too. It'd be nice to see what a "real" SW flight sim would be like.

Would be pretty cool...mostly because would mean much more dogfighting and that all sorts of battleships and crusiers would be insanely deadly when they go nuts with the guns.

McC wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Look at the mechanics they programmed for Crusiers.

<snip>
Yeah, I see your point, of course. Add on top of that the simple fact that everything moves too damn slow. Standard X-wing speed in the games is 100 MGLT, which works out to roughly 378 km/hr. Given that Star Destroyers can pull thousands of Gs...

Although, to be fair, they do seem to move pretty slow relative to each other in the films as well...is there any speculation as to why this is?

Likely POV. Much more concentrated on the fighters. Think of seeing a plane way up in the air vs looking at a car close next to you. Most of the perspective is up close with the fighters and very rarely centered around the larger ships

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-27 02:00am

Ghost Rider wrote:Her shield disspation.

Seriously if that's for a vehicle of that size, and if we just upgrade it to an ISD size disregarding power generation factors or military hardware improvements. The X-Wing is hard pressed against that vehicle, let alone the ISD.

Oh, you mean given the Naboo Royal yacht as an example of shield dissipation! I got it now.

Ghost Rider wrote:Would be pretty cool...mostly because would mean much more dogfighting and that all sorts of battleships and crusiers would be insanely deadly when they go nuts with the guns.

I wonder if there's enough interest here on the boards to develop something like this...I do modeling/animationg/surfacing stuff, so the content side isn't hard, but I don't know shit for coding...

Ghost Rider wrote:Likely POV. Much more concentrated on the fighters. Think of seeing a plane way up in the air vs looking at a car close next to you. Most of the perspective is up close with the fighters and very rarely centered around the larger ships

Hm...what about the shots in ROTJ when the fighters are right near the ISD trenches and the like?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-27 02:03am

McC wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Likely POV. Much more concentrated on the fighters. Think of seeing a plane way up in the air vs looking at a car close next to you. Most of the perspective is up close with the fighters and very rarely centered around the larger ships
Hm...what about the shots in ROTJ when the fighters are right near the ISD trenches and the like?

Think of a car in the perspective with the planet Earth when thinking along these lines for those scenes.

The car doesn't move as fast the Earth but get a close enough shot the ground can look perfectly still while the vehicle appears to definitly be moving extraordinarily faster.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-27 02:07am

Well, sure, that makes sense if the fighters are flying in the same direction as the ISDs -- that's just a matter of relative velocity. But one shot in particular stands out in my mind -- the one where the Y-wing flies around the lateral trench heading towards the rear of the ISD. Still seems to be moving slow. Or, alternately, the scene where the TIE fighter is shot apart before ramming into the ISD's shields.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-05-27 02:08am

X wing alliance should have had Starlancer style capital ships. There fighter weapons dont even scratch capship shields only torpedoes launched from bombers can destroy capship.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-05-27 03:40am

How about the ISD's turrets? In all the games (i would even say most of the games) you can always take them out easely (so the shield doesnt protect them. I guess in "real life" it wouldnt be impossible right? Or not?

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-05-27 05:43am

wautd wrote:How about the ISD's turrets? In all the games (i would even say most of the games) you can always take them out easely (so the shield doesnt protect them. I guess in "real life" it wouldnt be impossible right? Or not?

It makes some sense that the turrets would be unprotected. If it wasn't, then it would be kinda useless since the shots would just be blocked by the ISD's own shields.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-05-27 06:25am

Drooling Iguana wrote:
wautd wrote:How about the ISD's turrets? In all the games (i would even say most of the games) you can always take them out easely (so the shield doesnt protect them. I guess in "real life" it wouldnt be impossible right? Or not?
It makes some sense that the turrets would be unprotected. If it wasn't, then it would be kinda useless since the shots would just be blocked by the ISD's own shields.

i was thinking something like that yes but i wasnt sure.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-27 08:09am

wautd wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:
wautd wrote:How about the ISD's turrets? In all the games (i would even say most of the games) you can always take them out easely (so the shield doesnt protect them. I guess in "real life" it wouldnt be impossible right? Or not?
It makes some sense that the turrets would be unprotected. If it wasn't, then it would be kinda useless since the shots would just be blocked by the ISD's own shields.
i was thinking something like that yes but i wasnt sure.

The shield can provide openings or it would be damn useless not wouldn't it.

Actually they QUOTED this in the EU constantly that the shield can form precise opens and closings.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-05-27 08:17am

Perhaps the shield allows things to exit and not come in. If holes were used the ISD must have a huge shield breach where the ion engines are.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-05-27 08:25am

I wouldn't go against an ISD with only a single X-wing. I would 12 X-wings plus the same mumber Y-wings and/or B-Wings. Have X-wings take of the fighters and support the main assault that might work even in cannon SW With only single X-wing the had to be jedi (and/or nuts) just to survive.

BTW did ISD shoot back?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-05-27 08:33am

To answear most of the threads in this question

1. An ISD by record, has six diffrent shield sections each at a minium being able to absorb 16 Teraton worth of destruction(Based on minium estimates I put up on the board just over a year ago
For, Aft, Venteral, Dorsal, Port, and Starboard, basicly front, back, top, bottom, left, and right

The 16 Teraton figure is based of the fun assumpition than a twenty year old transports medium guns are just as powerful as a Cruisers LARGE guns and that its medium guns are half that
And thats 16 Teratons PERSHIELD SECTION which as has been noted in the past, as long as the emitters are not destroyed(The shield emitting things on the hull) then the shield's power can be redirected at will and all sections can be focus along a single front say venteral if the ship is being attacked from below that 16 Teratons becomes alot more as its mutipled by other sections to be 6x16=96 Teratons of damage

Keep all that in mind considering the highest know weapon a X-Wing can carry weight in at the low gigaton level and the lasers themselves are only Kiloton level and you see the practicle impossiblity of a single X-wing taking down a cap ship

2. Want to know what a battle with an ISD would be like?
If it went all out your talking at any one time between ten to thirty six light guns firing at you good enough to drop your shields in a hit or two, between eight to fourty medium guns firing beams roughly half as big as you that could carve you in half the instant they hit you

And ten to thirty large guns that the mearest fringes of the beam would be enough to vaporize you as they deliver several hundred times the nessary damage to kill you instantly

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-27 02:27pm

wautd wrote:How about the ISD's turrets? In all the games (i would even say most of the games) you can always take them out easely (so the shield doesnt protect them. I guess in "real life" it wouldnt be impossible right? Or not?

In X-wing Alliance, the larger capital ships don't have individual guns. They instead have little boxes on their surface referred to as "weapon system." These weapon system boxes control the weapons fire for a certain section of the ship. On the ISD, there are something like 15 (three on each edge of the triangle, dorsal/ventral; two on the command superstructure, and one on the top of the neck, behind the bridge superstructure). If you shoot out all 15, then the ship's weaponry goes dark. This was a rather elegant idea, I think, since it allowed ships to have enormous numbers of weapons without having to have actual separate turrets for each one (which would've killed most machines with the jacked up poly count).

Ghost Rider wrote:The shield can provide openings or it would be damn useless not wouldn't it.

Actually they QUOTED this in the EU constantly that the shield can form precise opens and closings.

Well, hell, not even EU. Rieekan says in ESB, "Prepare to open shield!" I doubt they all-out dropped the shield, so he must've been referring to opening a small section.

However, that begs the question: just how precisely can they be opened? I don't know which quotes you're referring to, so I might be way off base here, but since the shields are apparently divided into sections (as explained by Mr Bean), it would seem that perhaps a section of shield could be opened, but a precise small hole? I'm sort of inclined to go with the one-way shield idea before believing that a volumetric shield could have specific holes opened...sort of runs counter to what we've conjectured about the nature of shields, doesn't it?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-27 02:38pm

McC wrote:
Well, hell, not even EU. Rieekan says in ESB, "Prepare to open shield!" I doubt they all-out dropped the shield, so he must've been referring to opening a small section.

However, that begs the question: just how precisely can they be opened? I don't know which quotes you're referring to, so I might be way off base here, but since the shields are apparently divided into sections (as explained by Mr Bean), it would seem that perhaps a section of shield could be opened, but a precise small hole? I'm sort of inclined to go with the one-way shield idea before believing that a volumetric shield could have specific holes opened...sort of runs counter to what we've conjectured about the nature of shields, doesn't it?

The shield sections Bean is talking about are the indivuals generation systems.

In a Rogue book it's noted they can break a part of the shield section.

As for individual shots...since Cruisers usually have been shown to tear down a section it's apprently enough that not even fighters can take full advantage of any openings.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-27 03:20pm

Doesn't the idea of shield sections run counter to the idea of a volumetric effect, though?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-05-27 03:27pm

Canonically, ISD engines are shielded even when active. This flat-out proves that shield effects are one-way to some extent.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-05-27 03:48pm

Ah, good catch there Howedar.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-05-27 03:54pm

Ok forget the shields. Say they got disabled.

What would be the effect of the X-wing lasercannons on the ISD hull? Can it get trough or will it only scratch the paintjob