In all of your experience...

Vice Admiral · Post by **Vice Admiral** » 2004-05-27 05:18pm

Has any of you ever heard of or concluded of a galactic power that could
actually invade and defeat the Empire at its height?

The powers must be from the SW universe,

Btw, I’m new here so hello.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-05-27 06:10pm

The Culture. and Honorverse, possibly Dune. there's plenty of sci fi cultures that can defeat the empire, just none of them are in Trek.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2004-05-27 06:13pm

I think this should be in Other Sci-Fi with its predecessors not in Pure Star Wars personally.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-05-27 06:23pm

ah. . .actually, what exactly do you mean that the powers must be from the SW universe? there aren't too many galactic powers in the universe to begin with.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-05-27 07:28pm

Vice Admiral wrote:Has any of you ever heard of or concluded of a galactic power that could
actually invade and defeat the Empire at its height?

The powers must be from the SW universe,

Btw, I’m new here so hello.

Hi.

Basically, the only thing in SW that can defeat the Galactic Empire is the KOTOR-era Sith Empire. SPOILERS: With the Star Forge, they can pump out an infinite number of ships. Even if they are rather inferior to the Empire's vessels, they can outnumber them a thousand, a million, or even a billion to one given a bit of time.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-05-27 09:07pm

Darth_Zod wrote:The Culture. and Honorverse, possibly Dune. there's plenty of sci fi cultures that can defeat the empire, just none of them are in Trek.

Dune!?!? Wasn't it concluded that Dune would get its ass kicked by the UFP.

Vice Admiral · Post by **Vice Admiral** » 2004-05-27 11:47pm

ah. . .actually, what exactly do you mean that the powers must be from the SW universe? there aren't too many galactic powers in the universe to begin with.

It was the only way I thought it could stay here, my apologies. So let me revise the question.

Do you think any power could take on the Empire at its peak?

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2004-05-28 12:56am

I vaguely remember someone saying Asimov's Foundation at its height could curbstomp the Empire, but that may have just been Asimov fan-wanking.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-05-28 04:58am

Alferd Packer wrote:I vaguely remember someone saying Asimov's Foundation at its height could curbstomp the Empire, but that may have just been Asimov fan-wanking.

I think that in most sensible scenarios, the Galactic Empire of Trantor would win. However...

Star Wars EU high end vs Trantorian Empire low end. SW wins easily.
Star Wars low end vs Trantorian Empire low end. Really fucked up fight that might go either side.
Star Wars low end vs Trantorian Empire high end. Trantor wins very easily.
Star Wars high end vs Trantorian Empire high end. Really fucked up fight that is resolved depending of whether you accept that Trantor might have Death Star firepower levels avalaible or not.
Star Wars high end vs Foundation Federation circa 500 E.F. More likely Terminus wins unless both Foundations and Daneel Olivaw are grossly incompetent.
Star Wars everything vs Galaxia. Not funny. Galaxia might be powerful enough to seriously hurt the Culture (although it would be assraped in the end). Star Wars doesn't have a hope against Galaxia.

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2004-05-28 01:46pm

Hmm, interesting. Time for me to go re-read the Foundation series, methinks.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-28 01:50pm

Vice Admiral specified that the power must be from the SW universe.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-05-28 01:51pm

Darth_Zod wrote:The Culture. and Honorverse, possibly Dune. there's plenty of sci fi cultures that can defeat the empire, just none of them are in Trek.

Honorverse and Dune go down hard dude. Lack the numbers to compete.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-05-28 01:52pm

Murazor wrote:
Alferd Packer wrote:I vaguely remember someone saying Asimov's Foundation at its height could curbstomp the Empire, but that may have just been Asimov fan-wanking.
I think that in most sensible scenarios, the Galactic Empire of Trantor would win. However...

Star Wars EU high end vs Trantorian Empire low end. SW wins easily.
Star Wars low end vs Trantorian Empire low end. Really fucked up fight that might go either side.
Star Wars low end vs Trantorian Empire high end. Trantor wins very easily.
Star Wars high end vs Trantorian Empire high end. Really fucked up fight that is resolved depending of whether you accept that Trantor might have Death Star firepower levels avalaible or not.
Star Wars high end vs Foundation Federation circa 500 E.F. More likely Terminus wins unless both Foundations and Daneel Olivaw are grossly incompetent.
Star Wars everything vs Galaxia. Not funny. Galaxia might be powerful enough to seriously hurt the Culture (although it would be assraped in the end). Star Wars doesn't have a hope against Galaxia.

I just polished off the Foundation series recently and I don't know where all that comes from.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-05-28 01:53pm

Ender wrote:I just polished off the Foundation series recently and I don't know where all that comes from.

I don't want to hijack the thread. May we discuss it somewhere else?

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-05-29 01:37am

Alferd Packer wrote:I vaguely remember someone saying Asimov's Foundation at its height could curbstomp the Empire, but that may have just been Asimov fan-wanking.

No, I think the Foundation was the winner, and the old Empire (Asimov's) would lose to the Empire. Also, are you talking original Foundation trilogy stats, because the later books made them much, much weaker.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-05-29 03:07pm

With Dune it really depends on which source you're talking about. While the first book or movie would most likely be beaten as others have concluded, remember that the "threaten Arrakis with destruction" scenario wouldn't work in the later books (and I don't mean the prequels), since the spice can be synthesized off-world and they have a technological replacement for the Guild's role in space travel. But the overall military stats are pretty vague, so I'll leave that to the "experts." ; )

Haven't read Foundation yet...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-05-29 03:12pm

Murazor wrote:
Ender wrote:I just polished off the Foundation series recently and I don't know where all that comes from.
I don't want to hijack the thread. May we discuss it somewhere else?

For as much as I can, sure. We leave soon.

Maybe it's like was said, that later books cut its balls off, but from what I saw, they have slower ranges, I estimate lower power output by far, and weaker weapons and smaller forces.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-05-29 04:09pm

In DUNE, isn't Emperor Shaddam IV ruler of the known universe?

That's a bit bigger than one galaxy (plus nearby sattelite galaxies/nebulae).

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-05-29 04:30pm

Just about anything from the Beyond and up from Vernor Vinge's "Fire Upon the Deep" could stomp the Galactic Empire without a problem. Hell, even in the Slow Zone many of the human worlds were able to do the equivlent of a BDZ operation in seconds thanks to ridiculously powerful missiles, as seen in "A Deepness in the Sky"; same universe and author.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-05-29 09:46pm

As with Idi Amin, the God Emperor's title is probably just that: a title. It doesn't necessarily represent the extent of his holdings.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-29 10:39pm

Enola Straight wrote:In DUNE, isn't Emperor Shaddam IV ruler of the known universe?

That's a bit bigger than one galaxy (plus nearby sattelite galaxies/nebulae).

A term like "the known universe" is extremely vague and quite relative. Everything I've read in the Dune Encyclopedia points to the Imperium being a relatively small portion of the galaxy: most of the planets are within 8-10K light years from Sol; max FTL speed for a Guild Heighliner ever recorded was 63 light years per hour (none of that "folding space/intantaneous/travelling without moving stuff from the movie, please); and near the end, the Imperium contained only 30,000+ worlds.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-29 10:50pm

Axis Kast wrote:As with Idi Amin, the God Emperor's title is probably just that: a title. It doesn't necessarily represent the extent of his holdings.

Leto II's title of God Emperor of Dune more refered to His state of being. Having nearly completely transformed into Shai-Hulud, Leto II ruled for more than 3500 years, had what could have been an indefinite lifespan, ancestral voices, and total prescience so that He literally dictated everything that occured in His Empire. Leto II was as close as you can get to a physical incarnation of God.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-05-29 11:11pm

The OP stated within the SW universe.

I reject that the Sith Empire could do it, they never held what the Galactic Republic held, and the demonstrated firepower of their one-trick-pony vessels is low compared to BDZ capability.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-05-30 01:25am

Leto II's title of God Emperor of Dune more refered to His state of being. Having nearly completely transformed into Shai-Hulud, Leto II ruled for more than 3500 years, had what could have been an indefinite lifespan, ancestral voices, and total prescience so that He literally dictated everything that occured in His Empire. Leto II was as close as you can get to a physical incarnation of God.

Leto's state of being does not necessarily indicate an empire of the size and strength you believe him to have.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-30 02:19am

Jesus, Axis, read both of my fucking posts...

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