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You know, I've been re-watching all five movies recently and I have to say, I like the prequels more as I rewatch them. Elements that I once thought of as awful begin to make sense and I pick up new things that make them (the prequels) work. For instance, the scene where Anakin confesses to Padme about killing all the sand people -- I had never noticed before that after he tells her, she says, "To be angry is to be human" and he says, "I'm a Jedi -- I'm above that" or something to that effect and then she caresses him -- I had somehow never seen that scene before. Before, I had always asked myself, "Why the hell would she comfort him like that after such a confession?" But her reaction to it made the entire scene work for me.

Little Anakin is still pretty obnoxious, but during the pod race, I noticed that when he and Sebulba are locked together, Anakin is the one who tears them apart and sends Sebulba crashing -- nine years old, and an act of vengeance against an enemy. I had never looked at it that way before, but that kinda made sense in an interesting, foreboding way.

Jar Jar? Not so bad when you translate what he's saying. It's the way he says it that's obnoxious, but when you think of what he's saying without convoluted Gungan-speak, he's actually a smart-ass punk. "Oh, maxi-big da Force," he remarks to Qui-Gon. "Oh, the Force, yeah, that'll fix everything" might be a translation. It's actually pretty witty.

So, yeah, this is sort of my "I like the prequels" confessional. I don't think they're bad, and I don't think they've ruined Star Wars. And I'm kind of curious -- upon rewatching, has anyone else had a similar experience? Do the prequels grow on you the more you watch them?

McC wrote:For instance, the scene where Anakin confesses to Padme about killing all the sand people -- I had never noticed before that after he tells her, she says, "To be angry is to be human" and he says, "I'm a Jedi -- I'm above that" or something to that effect and then she caresses him -- I had somehow never seen that scene before.

I'm very sure that was cut out of the theatrical showing, but put back in for the DVD. It helped the scene out a lot (particularly Anakin's "I'm a Jedi..." line), and I have no idea why it wasn't in the theatrical showing.

I have always loved them, I have even memorized all the lines from TPM. I liked it because its SW with a good look.

PS. I love the Trade Federation.

Actually, the more I watch them, the less I like them, which is very saddening given the fact that the more times I watch the OT, the more I like it (with the possible exception of RotJ). The awful, awful dialogue sinks in more with each film and it becomes increasingly intolerable and difficult to sit through.

Don't get me wrong, I think AoTC at least is still a good film, just not the kickass film I thought it was the morning of May 16th, 2002.

Poor dialogue is certainly a detriment...when it's because it's written poorly. Mike makes a very good point (one that I agree with) on his AOTC analysis page wherein he justifies the shoddy dialogue between Padme and Anakin.

That is a good point, and something to consider, but it loses weight considering the bad dialogue isn't isolated to the romantic subplot.

Joe wrote:That is a good point, and something to consider, but it loses weight considering the bad dialogue isn't isolated to the romantic subplot.

I've always felt that it was. Perhaps you can cite some examples of that to which you're referring?

McC wrote:

Joe wrote:That is a good point, and something to consider, but it loses weight considering the bad dialogue isn't isolated to the romantic subplot.

I've always felt that it was. Perhaps you can cite some examples of that to which you're referring?

The Mace Windu/Dooku shit, Obi-Wan and Jango's exchange on Kamino, practically everything said by Threepio, many others. The dialogue during so much of the movie feels forced and unnatural.

There's also a deleted scene where Amidala gives a truly cringe-inducing speech to the Senate. Icky.

Mace Windu/Dooku:
Well, I would ascribe the clunkiness here largely to the fact that it's Sam Jackson trying to be his typical badass self and a Jedi at the same time, and the combination of the two doesn't quite work.

Obi-Wan/Jango:
See, I thought this was supposed to feel forced. The second Obi-Wan shows up, he knows Jango's the guy he's looking for, and Jango knows he's been had. The entire conversation is a formality, and they both know it.

Threepio:
Threepio's put in more extreme circumstances than we've ever seen him in before. We've never seen him whisked about anywhere before quite like in the droid factory, for instance, so it may simply be how he knew to react to the stimulus.

One of the biggest things I see with TPM/AOTC criticism is that the circumstances and characters aren't taken into account when the movie is judged (this doesn't necessarily apply to what you've been saying; I'm making a more general comment). When looking at it through that lens, everything makes much more sense.

I've loathed them since day one. Actually, I think AOTC is even worse than TPM.

Well, I would ascribe the clunkiness here largely to the fact that it's Sam Jackson trying to be his typical badass self and a Jedi at the same time, and the combination of the two doesn't quite work.

Of course not, not even Jules Vincent can make the crap Lucas shoveled onto his plate sound cool.

Obi-Wan/Jango:
See, I thought this was supposed to feel forced. The second Obi-Wan shows up, he knows Jango's the guy he's looking for, and Jango knows he's been had. The entire conversation is a formality, and they both know it.

It would have been a good sequence but Jango's "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way through the universe" is about the most unnatural piece of dialogue I've ever heard.

Threepio's put in more extreme circumstances than we've ever seen him in before. We've never seen him whisked about anywhere before quite like in the droid factory, for instance, so it may simply be how he knew to react to the stimulus.

Well, that's no excuse! Crappy dialogue is crappy dialogue, and none of Threepio's dialogue was ever quite as crappy as his AoTC stuff.

The problem with the dialogue isn't so much that it is bad in the cringe-inducing sense - though there are at least a half dozen scenes or so that are so stupid they're difficult to sit through - it's that it is completely flat and lifeless. It moved the story forward, but it wasn't really clever or witty at any point (with the exception of some of Yoda's stuff). The characters all sound the same; compare that to the OT where the three leads all had a style of dialogue that was unique and distinctive to them. Nobody will be quoting lines from AoTC in 20 years, I can almost guarantee you, but people will still be quoting Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, and Yoda for decades to come.

Joe wrote:The problem with the dialogue isn't so much that it is bad in the cringe-inducing sense - though there are at least a half dozen scenes or so that are so stupid they're difficult to sit through - it's that it is completely flat and lifeless. It moved the story forward, but it wasn't really clever or witty at any point (with the exception of some of Yoda's stuff). The characters all sound the same; compare that to the OT where the three leads all had a style of dialogue that was unique and distinctive to them. Nobody will be quoting lines from AoTC in 20 years, I can almost guarantee you, but people will still be quoting Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, and Yoda for decades to come.

That is what I've been thinking. With the OT you have a lot of different characters with different styles and so on; in the PT, it seems every Jedi speaks alike. They all have that calm, monotonous tone to their voice which reflect little personality. Yoda is the exception; Qui-Gon was distinct as well, but not by much - and then he died. Ewan MacGregor, Sam Jackson, the guy who plays Ki Adi Mundi (Conehead as I like to call him) all have the same boring, calming tone. And Padme also has the same problem. Basically, a lot of the principle characters all sound 'alike'. Who is Mace Windu? Just going by the movies, he's another Jedi. What about Obi-wan? Just another Jedi. Conehead? Another Jedi. And Padme? The only principle character who's a woman? Flat and lifeless. Good eyecandy, but wouldn't inspire me to pick up a lightsabre or get into a cockpit - not like Leia could.

Anakin doesn't, of course - he sounds like a brat, which is hardly an improvement. It would have been nice if Hayden Christiansen didn't try so hard.

Anakin doesn't, of course - he sounds like a brat, which is hardly an improvement. It would have been nice if Hayden Christiansen didn't try so hard.

Don't blame Christensen, he was very good in Shattered Glass. In a role that, come to think of it, has much in common with the role of Anakin Skywalker.

The prequels do get better with time. My initial reaction to AOTC was it was not much better than TPM. However subsequent viewing later I began to appreciate the story as I understood it more. Some of the lines in the movie had deep meanings. "The day we stop believing in democracy is the day we lose it" had grave meanings.

The PT I find is better when you watch some key deleted scenes, I still think the scenes at Padme's house are the best and most naturally acted scenes in the PT. Maybe it was a 2nd unit filming those, just seems whenever George is around it goes to shit, what will it take for him to ask for more "feeling" or something, is he so concerned with time and budget he just lets them act with no guidance at all? They should've made them closer to 3 hours to fit everything in. Episode 3 sounds good from rumours but with so much to fill out they should've extended all of them.

I personally think its McCallum, he's the lamest brown-noser ever, if George's inner circle didn't nod and agree at whatever he says the PT might have turned out better. George's idea of cool is just to outdated now, his writing is horrible and direction bland, Kasdan and guys like that were needed to direct again. They brought in a dialogue screenwriter and he brutalized the romance, like I said the only time its believable is in the cut scenes.

And enough with the comic relief in tense serious battles, totally kills your SoD. The OT had some but it was more of pure luck instead of ridiculous jokes that keep trying and trying, 3PO needed to stop talking after his first joke at the arena battle.

Joe wrote:

Anakin doesn't, of course - he sounds like a brat, which is hardly an improvement. It would have been nice if Hayden Christiansen didn't try so hard.

Don't blame Christensen, he was very good in Shattered Glass. In a role that, come to think of it, has much in common with the role of Anakin Skywalker.

I actually wasn't. I don't blame Hayden for doing the performance, so much as blame Lucas for wanting that performance. I just feel Hayden went a bit over the top in certain scenes, and... well, acted like a brat (the character - I have no idea what he's like as a person). But it's not because I dislike him.

As for Shattered Glass, not to go off topic but he was pretty good in it. And your point about the similarities is interesting, something I hadn't thought of. Both are 'apprentices' and both belong to an honourable profession - and both screw up dismally.

Meest wrote:is he so concerned with time and budget he just lets them act with no guidance at all? They should've made them closer to 3 hours to fit everything in.

I think one of the problems with the prequels is that they're too long, which suggest Lucas doesn't give a shit about time and budget (it takes 3 fucking years to make one movie). Some ruthless editing and less extraneous scenes would have helped improve the PT considerably.

And enough with the comic relief in tense serious battles, totally kills your SoD. The OT had some but it was more of pure luck instead of ridiculous jokes that keep trying and trying, 3PO needed to stop talking after his first joke at the arena battle.

Yes. Those jokes were just terrible. "Oh, this is such a drag." Ugh. Shame.

No they're not bad. In fact, even though I've been a Star Wars fan for 20+ years, I can say that AOTC is (yet) the best movie of the Star Wars saga (with ESB trailing millimeters behind). Heck, I even like Jar Jar, he's a funny character in the vein of Buster Keaton.

I would not call AOTC the best SW film. It ranks besides ROTJ.

Well i liked the prequals before and now, i've always liked them, i thick Attack of the Clones is as good as any SW film before. But i'm a fanboy of Star Wars and sci-fi in general, i'll say that about anything with lasers and robots

I don't really like the prequels, but thats another issue...

My opinion as to why the PT is not as good as the OT is this...

Aside from Lucus seemingly being surrounded by yes men (has no one the sense to say 'George that sucks'?) I believe it comes down to the actors alot. When the OT was being made Star wars wasn't this big thing it is now. When the dialogue was crappy the actors just changed it to make it sound better. But with the PT you have ths crappy dialogue but the actors just say it verbatum. There is no personal spin on it or willingness to change it. Why? Because its Star Wars! And the actors treat every line like its from the bible or something.

There are plenty of examples in the PT where the scenes intent is good, but its let down by crap dialogue delivered in a stilted manner.

IMHO

Actually, I never really disliked the prequels. Well, I found TPM to have more bad bits than good, until AOTC came out and it just all seemed to fit together, just as I hoped it would.

Crap dialogue? How is
"Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts"
"I don't think so." crap?

While I agree that the romantic subplot dragged the movie, it certainly played a role in Anakin conversion.

"You want to buy some death sticks?"
"You don't want to sell me death sticks."
"...I don't want to sell you death sticks."
"You want to go home and re-think your life."
"I want to go home...and re-think my life."

Classic.

I don't think the prequels measure up to ANH or TESB, but neither did ROTJ, which is the weakest of the series. Come to think of it, the only movie of this kind that does measure up is Raiders of the Lost Ark.

I do think the prequels needed tighter editing. I saw the IMAX cut of AOTC, and cutting @ 20 min. was a big improvement. For some reason, Lucas felt the need to not only make points in the PT, but to waste time and beat the audience over the head with them.

Joe wrote:

McC wrote:

Joe wrote:That is a good point, and something to consider, but it loses weight considering the bad dialogue isn't isolated to the romantic subplot.

I've always felt that it was. Perhaps you can cite some examples of that to which you're referring?

The Mace Windu/Dooku shit, Obi-Wan and Jango's exchange on Kamino, practically everything said by Threepio, many others. The dialogue during so much of the movie feels forced and unnatural.

There's also a deleted scene where Amidala gives a truly cringe-inducing speech to the Senate. Icky.

Well it's a bit stupid to judge a fim by the delete scenes I mean there was reason they were deleted?!?!