(From Avenger vs. Defender) "Admiral" Zaarin's sta

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-10-29 05:12pm

personal explanation #1: Zaarin was never a grand admiral before his defection. He only pretended to be one to his own forces afterwards to boost his own ego.

personal explanation #2: It's a ROTJ-style fuck-up. It was only meant to distinguish Zaarin and Thrawn from other officers as Admirals, not necessarilly as Grand Admirals. They just didn't get it in their minds that white is reserved for the Grand rank.

#2a. An ISB officer wore a white uniform, so what? White uniforms are nothing special, really.

I'm not gonna ever think Zaarin ever was a Grand Admiral pre-defection, peroid.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-10-29 06:05pm

Zaarin wasn't a grand admiral.

But then the more personally inclined members of the Empire in the latter days were given to promoting themselves almost to infinity.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-10-30 12:41am

The golden epaluets and chest insignia are that of a Imperial Grand Admiral. "White" is not the point.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-10-30 12:43am

I don't see why he couldn't be a Grand Admiral. Makes him seem more threatening. There's enough spaces left in the canon roster (12 at any time) and who knows? Maybe Thrawn was a kind of secret 13th GA? Explain why Rebels had no idea he existed?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-30 01:09am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I don't see why he couldn't be a Grand Admiral. Makes him seem more threatening. There's enough spaces left in the canon roster (12 at any time) and who knows? Maybe Thrawn was a kind of secret 13th GA? Explain why Rebels had no idea he existed?

ding ding ding! You are correct.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-10-30 01:16am

IG-88E wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:I don't see why he couldn't be a Grand Admiral. Makes him seem more threatening. There's enough spaces left in the canon roster (12 at any time) and who knows? Maybe Thrawn was a kind of secret 13th GA? Explain why Rebels had no idea he existed?
ding ding ding! You are correct.

Or you THINK so, at least. I still think he was acting as a GA only to his own forces.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-30 01:36am

I find it unlikely that Zaarin would promote himself to Grand Admiral, knowing that higher ranks were available, and also as he was a scientist at heart. I also find it unlikely that Zaarin would have been able to command the forces that he did, including Admiral Harkov, without being at least a Grand Admiral, or to have access to the Emperor sufficient to allow his attempted kidnapping to go on the way it did.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-10-30 01:56am

Master of Ossus wrote:I find it unlikely that Zaarin would promote himself to Grand Admiral, knowing that higher ranks were available,

In the Imperial Navy, Grand Admiral is the highest rank attainable. As yet he didn't possess any territory, assigning himself Moff or Emperor ranks would be pointless.

and also as he was a scientist at heart.

You seem to be implying that to him, power isn't everything. If that were true, why would he defect in the first place?

I also find it unlikely that Zaarin would have been able to command the forces that he did, including Admiral Harkov, without being at least a Grand Admiral, or to have access to the Emperor sufficient to allow his attempted kidnapping to go on the way it did.

Where does it say he had command of Harkov? Furthermore, Harkov could have been a simple Rear Admiral and Zaarin a Fleet Admiral, which in itself is of lofty rank and was outranked only by the High Admiral and Grand Admiral ranks. If he was indeed Fleet Admiral, it would have given him the cout he needed to pull of the kidnapping stunt.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-30 02:07am

RayCav of ASVS wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:I find it unlikely that Zaarin would promote himself to Grand Admiral, knowing that higher ranks were available,
In the Imperial Navy, Grand Admiral is the highest rank attainable. As yet he didn't possess any territory, assigning himself Moff or Emperor ranks would be pointless.

But assigning himself the rank of Grand Admiral is not what we saw in the other former Imperial warlords following the death of the Emperor at Endor. We saw them make up even loftier titles for themselves arbitrarily. Limiting an independent to the rules of an Empire he no longer serves is pointless and inconsistent. Besides, Zaarin clearly was trying to capture significant tracts of territory, and probably controlled a good quantity of it.

and also as he was a scientist at heart.

You seem to be implying that to him, power isn't everything. If that were true, why would he defect in the first place?

I was implying that he would likely try to separate himself from the military chain of command by emphasizing his role as a researcher. He is clearly ambitious to a fault, analogous in all ways to Saruman.

I also find it unlikely that Zaarin would have been able to command the forces that he did, including Admiral Harkov, without being at least a Grand Admiral, or to have access to the Emperor sufficient to allow his attempted kidnapping to go on the way it did.
Where does it say he had command of Harkov? Furthermore, Harkov could have been a simple Rear Admiral and Zaarin a Fleet Admiral, which in itself is of lofty rank and was outranked only by the High Admiral and Grand Admiral ranks. If he was indeed Fleet Admiral, it would have given him the cout he needed to pull of the kidnapping stunt.

Harkov is clearly a subordinate. His ships were working in support of a project headed by Zaarin (the development of more powerful weapons and the beam weapon). Also, Harkov was the one thrown to Vader to slow him down while ZAARIN was the one to go after the Emperor. If they were partners, then it would be astonishing to think that Harkov would allow his own fleet to engage significant loyalist forces while allowing Zaarin to seize power for himself. It is equally stupid of Harkov not to believe that Zaarin would not then double-cross him, having seized power for himself. Finally, Harkov's status was demonstrably inferior in that Zaarin was in command of multiple installations and starships, including an ISD and several R&D facilities as well as fixed factories. Harkov was merely in command of a single capital ship with a few smaller vessels on the side. Further, Harkov's death (though he was interrogated by Vader) did not succeed in rooting out all of the spies and intelligence operatives that Zaarin had installed, further demonstrating that Zaarin was the mastermind behind the plot.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-30 02:24am

Master of Ossus wrote:I find it unlikely that Zaarin would promote himself to Grand Admiral, knowing that higher ranks were available, and also as he was a scientist at heart. I also find it unlikely that Zaarin would have been able to command the forces that he did, including Admiral Harkov, without being at least a Grand Admiral, or to have access to the Emperor sufficient to allow his attempted kidnapping to go on the way it did.

Zaarin didn't command Harkov did he?

As I recall, Zaarin ambushed the ISD Garrett in the final stages of the attack on the dead Harkov's VSD Protector and its Rebel friends.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2002-10-30 03:25am

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but regarding Zaarin's pre-defection rank, The Essential Chronology says that he was indeed a Grand Admiral.
I had always assumed that it was a self-imposed title, but since The Essential Chronology is the only official word on the topic (AFAIK), I guess we have to go with it, even if it is KJA.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2002-10-30 03:35am

There has never been any indication that Admiral Harkov and Grand Admiral Zaarin were confederates in any way. Admiral Harkov was defecting from Imperial service to the counterrevolutionary rebel Alliance (recall that he was being paid to do so by President Mothma), whilst Admiral Zaarin retained his virulent hatred of the Alliance even late in his own failed attempt to seize power.

If Admiral Harkov were subordinate to Admiral Zaarin, it was only so prior to the defection of the former. The latter merely used the defection of the former as a convenient case of misdirection for his own defection.

As Mr Treder has mentioned, Admiral Zaarin's status as a grand admiral has been officially confirmed; the Essential Chronology explicitly states that he was the first grand admiral to leave service. He was not a faux grand admiral or warlordly pretender.

Publius

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-30 09:26am

After his death, another man was promoted (I'll check th name this weekend) and Thrawn was simultaneously given a secret promotion to GA, thus makeing 13 at one time.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-30 10:14am

Also, according to Zahn, there was little or no records of the Grand Admirals, Like the Death Star project Grand Admirals were a way of bringing the fleet more under the Emperor's direct control.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-30 01:47pm

Zaarin was referred to twice as Grand Admiral in the Essential Chronology:

Page 59: "Immediately after Xizor's death, Grand Admiral Zaarin attacked Vader's fleet in the Ottega system and captured the Emperor's private shuttlecraft at Coruscant."

and page 72:

"The first grand admiral to fall was Zaarin, when he attempted a coup d'etat against the Emperor - just before Endor - and failed."

Zaarin's treachery seemed to end his status as a Grand Admiral, which presumably lead to Thrawn's elevation. If his "status" were considered a secret, this would explain how he evaded detection by the Rebels until the HTTE trilogy-era (they would think of Zaarin rather than of his replacement).

Zaarin's status as a Grand Admiral makes his treachery seem all the more feasible. To even consider a coup, he would need significant resources at his backing, both in terms of territory AND military. Being a grand admiral (which IIRC from the THrawn trilogy indicated strong political and maybe administrative skills as well as military talent) would probably give him direct or indirect access to said resources.