Some questions on the EU.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-06-23 05:49pm

So I haven't really read any EU for a while. I've read the X wing series, the Jedi Academy *bleuck* series, the Trawn trilogy, and shit like that.

Any way, I've finally broke down and got 'Vector Prime' from the library since alot of discusion here is geared toward the Vong. I'm only a couple chapters into it but I've got some questions maybe some of you can clear up.

1. When the hell did Mara turn gooie and marry Luke, I was under the impression that happened durring this whole Vong thing.

2. Why did the NR go back to the X wing (T65J, I believe). Was there any reason given why the E wing didn't last long? It was a fan favorite for many a year (though I though it was silly) but in the second or third chapter of 'Vector Prime', some Jedi swoops in with a 'new' X wing with the model number 'J'?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-06-23 05:59pm

1. When the hell did Mara turn gooie and marry Luke, I was under the impression that happened durring this whole Vong thing.

During the Hand of Thrawn duology.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-06-23 05:59pm

The Mara-Luke relationship actually blossomed during the Hand of Thrawn Duology by Zahn, set some time before the NJO.

The X-wing gives a very identifiable visual image to SW fans, making the series potentially more attractive to those relatively new to the books. As far as I know, the E-wing has gotten very little mention of any sort in the EU ,outside of Dark Empire.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2004-06-23 06:09pm

Knife wrote:
1. When the hell did Mara turn gooie and marry Luke, I was under the impression that happened durring this whole Vong thing.

No. Luke confessed his Feerlings for Mara and proposed to her while trapped on Wayland. This happened in the last 3rd of the second book of the Hand of Thrawn Duology. They got married in the Star Wars Comic "Union" which was co-authored by Michael Stackpole.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-06-23 06:40pm

Just to clairfy, they were not on Wayland. They were on a planet controlled by the Chiss loyal to thrawn on the edge of the Unknown Regions

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-06-23 06:45pm

Joe wrote:
1. When the hell did Mara turn gooie and marry Luke, I was under the impression that happened durring this whole Vong thing.
During the Hand of Thrawn duology.

Ah, so besides the obvious problem of Thrawn being dead, is the series any good? I'm in a reading mood lately.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-06-23 06:56pm

Knife wrote:
Joe wrote:
1. When the hell did Mara turn gooie and marry Luke, I was under the impression that happened durring this whole Vong thing.
During the Hand of Thrawn duology.
Ah, so besides the obvious problem of Thrawn being dead, is the series any good? I'm in a reading mood lately.

Its good. Some things are screwed up a bit, like the evil plot being revealed to the reader way to soon (IMO), but they're still very good books.

Oh, and about Thrawn being dead... well, just read the books and see.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-06-23 07:35pm

Knife wrote:2. Why did the NR go back to the X wing (T65J, I believe). Was there any reason given why the E wing didn't last long? It was a fan favorite for many a year (though I though it was silly) but in the second or third chapter of 'Vector Prime', some Jedi swoops in with a 'new' X wing with the model number 'J'?

Actualy both the X-Wing and the E-Wing are still in service. The X-Wing apparently makes for a better general purpose fighter while the E-Wing is a Superiority fighter. Later on in the war it seems the E-Wing and X-Wing numbers are about equal and the XJ-Wings are starting to filter into fleet service.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2004-06-23 08:26pm

Solauren wrote:Just to clairfy, they were not on Wayland. They were on a planet controlled by the Chiss loyal to thrawn on the edge of the Unknown Regions

It's been a while since I read the Duology. I thought It was Wayland, but I guess I was wrong.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-06-23 08:33pm

Is the XJ-Wing just a new version of the X-wing or is it a completely different design?

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2004-06-23 08:39pm

Icehawk wrote:Is the XJ-Wing just a new version of the X-wing or is it a completely different design?

It's a new version.

The XJ has, among other things, a third torpedo tube mounted along the centerline.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-06-23 10:09pm

Alyeska wrote:
Actualy both the X-Wing and the E-Wing are still in service. The X-Wing apparently makes for a better general purpose fighter while the E-Wing is a Superiority fighter. Later on in the war it seems the E-Wing and X-Wing numbers are about equal and the XJ-Wings are starting to filter into fleet service.

You'll have to explain what the hell that means. A better general purpose fighter while the other is a better space superiority fighter? A space superiority fighter would be the better general purpose fighter. Is the E wing suposedly a better interceptor? Or strike? The stats I've ever seen on the thing just makes it out to be a better Xwing (while looking dumber).

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-06-23 10:10pm

Knife wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Actualy both the X-Wing and the E-Wing are still in service. The X-Wing apparently makes for a better general purpose fighter while the E-Wing is a Superiority fighter. Later on in the war it seems the E-Wing and X-Wing numbers are about equal and the XJ-Wings are starting to filter into fleet service.

You'll have to explain what the hell that means. A better general purpose fighter while the other is a better space superiority fighter? A space superiority fighter would be the better general purpose fighter. Is the E wing suposedly a better interceptor? Or strike? The stats I've ever seen on the thing just makes it out to be a better Xwing (while looking dumber).

Who knows...but that is what the Eu uses as it's explaination.

The only gist I can get is the X-Wing has better possiblitys of multitasking while the E-Wing is simply a better Dogfighter.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-24 07:32am

Knife wrote:Ah, so besides the obvious problem of Thrawn being dead, is the series any good? I'm in a reading mood lately.

In my opinion? Not really. I found the Duology to be a chore to read, actually. I started reading it on it's side, but bit by bit I began disliking it. There are 3 major problems I have with it, but to continue would constitute spoiling a few select things - although these 3 things aren't that major to the storyline, and they all occur relatively early in the duology - #1 is in the first chapter, #2 is in the first half of book 1, and #3 is more or less unspoilerish anyway.

SPOILERS

#1 - Zahn has the Empire reduced to a rediculous size, compared to Wartime Highs. On the other hand, it causes a peacetime initiative so it does fulfill a purpose. This is 50/50 for me, I both dislike it and think it's an important and vital plot development.

#2 - While Thrawn is dead, a clever clone and a traitorous (re: looking out for number one, not pro-NR 'traitorous') Moff hatch a devious plan to use a conman as a replacement for Thrawn. Yes, he get's surgically altered to look like a Chiss, then it's revealed Flim is an actor and so 'plays the part' of Thrawn so much so that dedicated Thrawn-loyalist Captains almost immediately accept him (after a brief phase of suspicion which yields nothing).

Worse than that, the very RUMOUR of Thrawn's return makes everyone in the NR lose their balls and start acting really afraid. We're talking people who flew into the Death Stars, or faced down Emperor Palpatine, or went through Vader's tortures - forget all that shit, Thrawn's RUMOURED to have return. Fuck, if the NR were so full of pansies then the Empire didn't need large fleets to kill them, just good Propaganda.

Nevermind the fact that most Imperials ought to know that Thrawn died at Bilbringi thanks to the Noghri assassin Ruhk. Somehow Zahn expects us to believe the ENTIRE crew of the Chimera as well as accompanying ISD sister ships were somehow kept unaware of Thrawn's death.

#3 - Mara makes several lines about how Thrawn, an alien foreigner, was an 'expert' or something on Imperial Court politics. I like Thrawn, I think he was a terrific villain, but character-wanking can only go so far...

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-24 07:39am

Knife wrote:A space superiority fighter would be the better general purpose fighter. Is the E wing suposedly a better interceptor? Or strike? The stats I've ever seen on the thing just makes it out to be a better Xwing (while looking dumber).

IIRC it has more torpedoes, which might make it a better strike fighter. It's also really fast, either approaching A-wing speeds or not too far off. So it probably makes a better interceptor as well. Combine both and you've got a good Space Superiority Fighter. Almost too good...

Fighter-wanking aside maybe the X-wing simply handles better, making it considered 'generally' better by pilots?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-06-24 12:11pm

Knife wrote:

You'll have to explain what the hell that means. A better general purpose fighter while the other is a better space superiority fighter? A space superiority fighter would be the better general purpose fighter. Is the E wing suposedly a better interceptor? Or strike? The stats I've ever seen on the thing just makes it out to be a better Xwing (while looking dumber).

The F-16D is a better multipurpose fighter than the equivalent F-15E model, although the F-15E model still retains superior dogfighting ability over the F-16.
So, the E-wing has apparently been restricted to a space superoirty fighter, IOW, F15 equivalent, whereas the X-wing is a multipurpose fighter.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-06-24 12:37pm

The E-wing of the Dark-Empire Era was classified (IIRC) as a "heavy assault starfighter" - three heavy laser cannons, sixteen proton torpedoes, more durable than an X-wing and as agile as a TIE intercecptor (not an A-wing.) Considered both a s uperiority fighter as well as capable of assaulting other targets (in fact it was mentioned that in some cases the E-wing would be a B-wing atlterative... which is pure wank if you ask me..)

According to the Jedi Academy Sourcebook (WEG), the New REpublic upgraded X-wings to the T65-AC4 model X-wing about a year later, which was as fast (and, I think manuverable) as the A-wing, and carried heavier firepower (but no mroe than the usual X-wing torpedo loadout). The only mention(s) of the E-wings were in the KJA novels (most notably Darksaber) and in the Black Fleet Crisis. It should be noted that in the BFC the E-wing was the primary "superiority" fighter of Fifth Fleet - they did not use X-wings until after Doornik-319 (IE as replacement fighters.)

About the time of Kueller and his "New Rebellion", the X-wings were being upgraded again (although whether this upgrade held or not may be debatable - since some of the upgrades were intended as deliberate sabotage.)

Fast forward to the New Jedi Order. The X-wing is again in use, but the model is the J model of the X-wing (or was it XJ-wing? I forget ATM), which was later upgraded as well. Presumably superior to the T-65 AC4, it also included 3 separate torpedo tubes (each carrying 3 torpedoes.. more than the older X-wings but still little more than half what the E-wing carries.) At this time the E-wing/B model (I believe) is also in use, so that fighter is still in production, and being upgraded. The X-wing gets one more upgrade around the time of Star by Star to the J3 model X-wing.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-06-24 01:22pm

So you know-
Vector Prime is probably the *WORST* of the New Jedi Order books.
The second book, Dark Tide 1, is when it starts getting good...

warpusher · Post by **warpusher** » 2004-06-24 03:41pm

PainRack,

The F-15E is actually more of the multi-purpose fighter than the F-16D. The F-16D is a two seat version of the F-16. In the USAF it is mainly used as a Trainer.

The F-15E is the Multi-mission variant of the F-15. The F-15E is slightly larger, with conformal fuel tanks. It can carry quite a bit of ordanance (bombs) strapped to the conformal tanks. It still can carry air-air weapons.

The closest thing in a class currently to the E-wing as a space superiority fighter would be the F-15C. The F-15C is a single seat fighter that is only Air-to-Air. It's replacement will be the F-22 Raptor.

The F-15E (Strike Eagle) is more akin to the X wing. While being a capable fighter, it is not the all around best. Air-to-air it posesses many of the F-15C traits, yet it's role is not to go against fighters primarially...it is to smash things and kill people on the ground

A F-16 set up for Air-Air is much like the A-wing. It is small, light, fast and maneuverable.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-06-24 05:47pm

Praxis wrote:So you know-
Vector Prime is probably the *WORST* of the New Jedi Order books.
The second book, Dark Tide 1, is when it starts getting good...

I'm not quite half way through and so far its pretty good. I don't like the uber wank of the bio-weapons/equipment and find it a clumsy way to do things but other than that......

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-06-24 05:49pm

Knife wrote:I'm not quite half way through and so far its pretty good. I don't like the uber wank of the bio-weapons/equipment and find it a clumsy way to do things but other than that......

It's stated somewhere in the NJO (not sure where, it might be in Vector Prime somewhere) that the Vong's tech isn't any better than the NR's, just different, which makes it harder to counter.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-06-24 06:07pm

Black Admiral wrote:
Knife wrote:I'm not quite half way through and so far its pretty good. I don't like the uber wank of the bio-weapons/equipment and find it a clumsy way to do things but other than that......
It's stated somewhere in the NJO (not sure where, it might be in Vector Prime somewhere) that the Vong's tech isn't any better than the NR's, just different, which makes it harder to counter.

Thats actually silly if you think about it. All their shit is animals who are bred for a specific purpose (at least so far in reading it). To make a new device, you'd have to go through generations of breeding to get a device you wanted.

Even for silly, small things. What if they wanted one of those worm thingys that are translators, to instead of being inside of their ears, to be attached to the side of your head like some sort of head set. Instead of just rigging up a wire head set, they'd have to breed a new version of the worm with the ability to do that.

I know the SW universe is in a tech stagnation but that doesn't mean they can't adapt their tech quick just by preforming small modifications. The Vong would have to go through generations of breeding to make simple modifications.

Its silly. Especially when EVERY THING is an animal bred for what ever mundane reason they needed it for.

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-06-24 06:08pm

I never said it was particularly intelligent, just that that's the explanation given.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-24 06:50pm

Knife wrote:2. Why did the NR go back to the X wing (T65J, I believe). Was there any reason given why the E wing didn't last long? It was a fan favorite for many a year (though I though it was silly) but in the second or third chapter of 'Vector Prime', some Jedi swoops in with a 'new' X wing with the model number 'J'?

I suspect its similar to the fact that modern nations still buy beefed-up MiG-21 FISHBEDs.

Personally, I think its because the New Republic doted Fri'Tech factories all over during the war, and a modernized and reoptomized T-65 is cheaper and more parts are available, particular to groups like the Jedi and units on the Rim than the front line and less numerous E-Wing fighters

However, a new "Series IV E-Wing" is introduced in Star by Star.

EDIT: Just to add, I believe the E-Wing was rated to be significantly more expensive and complex than the X-Wings, particularly due to the R7 Astromechs needed.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-06-24 07:11pm

Knife wrote:
Praxis wrote:So you know-
Vector Prime is probably the *WORST* of the New Jedi Order books.
The second book, Dark Tide 1, is when it starts getting good...
I'm not quite half way through and so far its pretty good. I don't like the uber wank of the bio-weapons/equipment and find it a clumsy way to do things but other than that......

Well, it changes a lot. In Vector Prime it makes Vong ships seem uber-riffic, FAR more than they are in any other book. It also makes their ground combat = pathetic, as a non Jedi (Danni) beats up a Vong armed with amphistaffs... and two unarmed jedi take out 5 Vong...

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