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Ok I'm looking for good sources that can tell me something about the size of the Hapans ship building industry and ship numbers.
I came across an old thread in the SD.net archives some time ago indicated the Hapans took over several star destroyers of various types when the Imperials left the cluster, but the Hapans could not build ships as massive as the ISD if I understood that correctly, because they lacked the industry for it.

Now I have someone who appears to be a fan to the Hapans or some such and is making up such claims that the mighty Galactic Empire was driven away from the Hapes cluster, and in order to do that they must have had thousands of Battle dragons and Nova cruisers.

But the impression I get from the reading the books doesn’t indicate they have such numbers.
Example one: the Hapan fleet that was sent to Fondor, I believe they were 150 ships strong. And wasn’t that considered to be a vast fleet by the Hapans?

And when they were secretly rebuilding their forces I got the impression the fleet they were building was somewhere equal as large as the Hapan fleet at Fondor around 100-150 ships and not thousands ships as this guy claims. Though I have been looking for that particular page that describes the ships being built, but been unsuccessful in finding it.

Then he also claims there was an YV invasion into Hapans space and it was driven off by thousands of Battledragons and Nova cruisers.

After I have read regarding the Fondor incident with the Hapan fleet they were secretly rebuilding I don't get any impression they have these thousands of ships at all.

Hapan stuff

Anywho, ask him to put up his shit. Where's the quotes showing "thousands" of Hapan Battle Dragons?

And besides, if they could never build Star Destroyers for themselves, how could they build huge superb fleets of rinky-dink micro ships to beat the thousands-upon-thousands-of-ISD Imperial Navy?

The Empire abandoned Hapes as a client state after Endor and they siezed the yards above in the confusion. During the implosion of the Empire they managed to fend off the Imperial factions about.

From one Primus to another, thanks. Hopefully that will help next time he is pulling out something without supporting it with facts.

Edit: Do you happen to know which page in Dark Journey it mentions the rebuilding of the Hapan fleet? I my memory serves me right, I believe the Queen Mother showed the location of the Hapan shipyard to Jaina, might get some understanding of numbers there.

Boy am I late!

The Hapens in Courtship of Princess Leia threw around star desroyers and Battle dragons like toys. The battles in that book had them throwing around 60 - 70 "Destroyers" as if it was nothing. This at least hints that they hand many more ships than that as that was not considered a major investment.

Now the Hapen were conquered by the Empire but were apparently still allowed to opperate their own ships under Imperial supervision. They managed to capture dozens of star destroyers which hints at a major Imperial presence in the cluster before the withdrawal of the Empire. So having a thousand some odd ship does not sound to unreasonable. That is not to say they have more than maybe 1,000 ships in total. They were a vassel state of the Empire rather than a fully conquered territority. I sermise that the Hapens at most had 200 - 300 ships of Battle Dragon quality. Then again only a few dozen ISD's seemed to be all that was needed to 'pacify' the sector.

Isolder74 wrote:I sermise that the Hapens at most had 200 - 300 ships of Battle Dragon quality. Then again only a few dozen ISD's seemed to be all that was needed to 'pacify' the sector.

And maybe equal numbers in Nova cruisers?

The few dozens could very well be enough to hold on to a sector knowing the Empire could send in many more if the Hapans tried to break away.

Dark Primus wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:I sermise that the Hapens at most had 200 - 300 ships of Battle Dragon quality. Then again only a few dozen ISD's seemed to be all that was needed to 'pacify' the sector.

And maybe equal numbers in Nova cruisers?

The few dozens could very well be enough to hold on to a sector knowing the Empire could send in many more if the Hapans tried to break away.

I agree. Those numbers Sound reasonable.

This is very true and after the Battle of Endor the Hapans would know that the Imperials weren't coming back(at least for now) So they used their fleet to force most of the destroyers in their sector to surrender(possibly without having to fire a shot.) It is certain that whoever was the Imperial Governor in The Hapan Cluster did not live for very long after Endor became general news in the Cluster.

It does sound like the Hapans were powerful enough that the Empire made them a vassel state rather that take out the entire military of the Hapans.

I still think that at most the Hapans had no more than 1,000 ships in total.

In combat, it takes 2 -3 Battle Dragons to equal the combat firepower of 1 ISD. I suspect that it would take 10 - 12 Nova Cruisers to do the same. Obviously, The Empire went to great trouble to keep the Hapan's Turbolaser quality lower than the Galactic standard. The Destroyers deployed to the Cluster, more than likely, were used to keep traders from shipping the Hapans advanced weapons, etc..

Their fighters seem to be a match for the Standard Ties of the Empire and their Pulse Mass Mines would have made the capture of the Imperial Destroyers even easier. Whatever the case, it seems that by NJO the Hapan fleet had been greatly reduced in strength and size. Either that or they still were nott sending everything they had available. The Vong did invade the cluster which may have devestated the Hapan battle fleet.

Isolder74 wrote:The Hapens in Courtship of Princess Leia threw around star desroyers and Battle dragons like toys. The battles in that book had them throwing around 60 - 70 "Destroyers" as if it was nothing. This at least hints that they hand many more ships than that as that was not considered a major investment.

Post proof or retract.

The maximum number of ships nailed down under the Hapan Consortium was sixty-four Hapan Battle Dragons.

Isolder74 wrote:Now the Hapen were conquered by the Empire but were apparently still allowed to opperate their own ships under Imperial supervision. They managed to capture dozens of star destroyers which hints at a major Imperial presence in the cluster before the withdrawal of the Empire. So having a thousand some odd ship does not sound to unreasonable. That is not to say they have more than maybe 1,000 ships in total. They were a vassel state of the Empire rather than a fully conquered territority. I sermise that the Hapens at most had 200 - 300 ships of Battle Dragon quality. Then again only a few dozen ISD's seemed to be all that was needed to 'pacify' the sector.

No disagreement.

I have not read any novels with the Hapans in them, but, I heard from another person that when the YV threat was gone and this new goverernment of free people or whatever the NR turned into, I was under the impression that then the Hapans recieved proper turbolaser technology. Is this true?

PS. Lately the Hapans have begun to fascinate me becuase of their ship designs, I am really taking a shine to them.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:The Hapens in Courtship of Princess Leia threw around star desroyers and Battle dragons like toys. The battles in that book had them throwing around 60 - 70 "Destroyers" as if it was nothing. This at least hints that they hand many more ships than that as that was not considered a major investment.

Post proof or retract.

I have this

Prince Isolder wrote:Billions of warriors, thousands of starships,"

Prince Isolder wrote:"I've got a fleet on it's way," Isolder said. "They should be here in another seven or eight days."

Han asked, "When you say fleet, how big a fleet are you talking?"

"About eighty destroyers(referring to both Battle Dragons and ISD's)," Isolder said."

My point is at the time shortly after Endor the Hapans are quite the armed camp. With ready access to Rainbow Gemes from Gallinore and other riches they have access to the wealth to be able to afford them too.


We have the sending of 63 Battle Dragons as a simple diplomatic measure one representing each Hapan world. Those can't be everything they have.

The Courtship of Princess Leia wrote:There were hundreds of ships in the air--Imperial Star Destroyers and the rust colored disks of Hapan Battle Dragons.

Isolder74 wrote:We have the sending of 63 Battle Dragons as a simple diplomatic measure one representing each Hapan world. Those can't be everything they have.

Not to mention that the poorer hapan systems each gave a captured destroyer to Leia as a gift.

Didn´t the Hapes capture those ISDs in an imperial shipyard inside their space? As far as i remember, those star destroyers would have gotten their turbolasers once they were outside the Hapes-Cluster.

FTeik wrote:Didn´t the Hapes capture those ISDs in an imperial shipyard inside their space? As far as i remember, those star destroyers would have gotten their turbolasers once they were outside the Hapes-Cluster.

But that doesn't mean the shipyard had the equiptment to manufacture the turbolasers. regaurdless the Empire obviously took measures to ensure that the Hapans would not have access to Imperial turbolasers.

My wonder is why the Hapans hadn't begun dismantling the ISD's for their turbolasers?

Isolder74 wrote: My wonder is why the Hapans hadn't begun dismantling the ISD's for their turbolasers?

Perhaps because reverse-engineering isn't very easy, takes a lot of time and resources, and to use this technology you would have to either refit the entire existing fleet or build entirely new ships incorporating it (not to mention the tests of the derivate technology, eradicating the flaws and all the other development stages)

After establishing relations with the NR, they could have easily bought the necessary tech without the need to scrap any of their shiny, new ISD's and engaging in R&D.

PeZook wrote:

Isolder74 wrote: My wonder is why the Hapans hadn't begun dismantling the ISD's for their turbolasers?

Perhaps because reverse-engineering isn't very easy, takes a lot of time and resources, and to use this technology you would have to either refit the entire existing fleet or build entirely new ships incorporating it (not to mention the tests of the derivate technology, eradicating the flaws and all the other development stages)

After establishing relations with the NR, they could have easily bought the necessary tech without the need to scrap any of their shiny, new ISD's and engaging in R&D.

Well I meant to take them off the imperial mounts and install them on their own.

But you are right, the ISD's are superior to their own ships so why not just use them as they are.

The Hapans must have a significant number of warships concentrated in a small area. Think about it: they may have 1000 or so warships, divided by Nova-class battle cruisers and Hapan Battle Dragons (what I presume are their only main warship models), but they're defending a relatively tiny area of space. Only 63 planets, which means that they would have an average of 15.87 potent captial ships per planet!

We must keep into account that Palpatine considered sending Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik into invade the Hapes cluster a suicide mission, in which he would be punished with death for failing to fulfill a mission. This is the same Teshik who managed to keep the broken Imperial fleet at Endor fighting for three hours after the loss of the Executor. They must have considerable forces to be able to repel an Imperial battle fleet.

Isolder74 wrote:I have this

Prince Isolder wrote:Billions of warriors, thousands of starships,"

Right, and we assume these all are the Consortium's ships-of-the-line why now?

The New Republic counted damn tenders and gunships in their warship OoB.

Isolder74 wrote:

Prince Isolder wrote:"I've got a fleet on it's way," Isolder said. "They should be here in another seven or eight days."

Han asked, "When you say fleet, how big a fleet are you talking?"

"About eighty destroyers(referring to both Battle Dragons and ISD's)," Isolder said."

Oh, wow. When we know the envoy sent to Coruscant was over sixty-three Battle Dragons and various ISDs? Do you think that fleet just went home and magic fleet B came out of nowhere? Got left at Coruscant? Please. You're unneccesarily multiplying entities here.

Isolder74 wrote:My point is at the time shortly after Endor the Hapans are quite the armed camp. With ready access to Rainbow Gemes from Gallinore and other riches they have access to the wealth to be able to afford them too.

Bullshit. Their economy is entirely self-contained (massive border control and isolation from modern technology in a technologically static civilization, anyone?). Half of the reason Hapan shit is probably so expensive is because they're xenophobic assholes and lock up their borders so its really difficult to get to and they can monopolize it.

Isolder74 wrote:We have the sending of 63 Battle Dragons as a simple diplomatic measure one representing each Hapan world. Those can't be everything they have.

Certainly not. Its a lower-limit. But you'll have to do better to magically inflate it to "thousands" of ISDs and Battle Dragons. Shit I should use your logic to use the millions figures of the Imperial Starfleet to refer to ISDs, or even better, SSDs.

Isolder74 wrote:

The Courtship of Princess Leia wrote:There were hundreds of ships in the air--Imperial Star Destroyers and the rust colored disks of Hapan Battle Dragons.

Again, how is this inconsistent with the over sixty Battle Dragon (perhaps even seventy or eighty depending on other forces from Hapes itself and other key worlds) and a couple dozen Star Destroyers? This could easily figure into over a hundred major warships, plus others. Now again, how do you exactly go straight to "thousands"?

Isolder74 wrote:

FTeik wrote:Didn´t the Hapes capture those ISDs in an imperial shipyard inside their space? As far as i remember, those star destroyers would have gotten their turbolasers once they were outside the Hapes-Cluster.

But that doesn't mean the shipyard had the equiptment to manufacture the turbolasers. regaurdless the Empire obviously took measures to ensure that the Hapans would not have access to Imperial turbolasers.

My wonder is why the Hapans hadn't begun dismantling the ISD's for their turbolasers?

Actually, the turbolasers themselves were built elsewhere and shipped in to be attached.

President Sharky wrote:The Hapans must have a significant number of warships concentrated in a small area. Think about it: they may have 1000 or so warships, divided by Nova-class battle cruisers and Hapan Battle Dragons (what I presume are their only main warship models), but they're defending a relatively tiny area of space. Only 63 planets, which means that they would have an average of 15.87 potent captial ships per planet!

We must keep into account that Palpatine considered sending Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik into invade the Hapes cluster a suicide mission, in which he would be punished with death for failing to fulfill a mission. This is the same Teshik who managed to keep the broken Imperial fleet at Endor fighting for three hours after the loss of the Executor. They must have considerable forces to be able to repel an Imperial battle fleet.

What moron wrote that? Hapes was an Imperial client state.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:I have this

Prince Isolder wrote:Billions of warriors, thousands of starships,"

Right, and we assume these all are the Consortium's ships-of-the-line why now?

The New Republic counted damn tenders and gunships in their warship OoB.

So you are making us assume that the Hapans use the same system. Even if there is only 3 Battle Dragons per Hapan World, that gives us a lower limit of 189. To capture several dozen ISD's(assuming 2 to be lower end) would require outmatching them to the point thy surrender or are Ion cannoned to death(at least 3 Battle dragome are needed maybe as many as six) which gives us 72 - 144 as a minimum and it goes up fast if we has more than two dozen ISD's captured, which is the most resonable.

3 dozen ISD's = 108 - 216

4 dozen ISD's = 144 - 288

and so on.

I am not saying that is the only way to do it either. It is possible to guess how many ship they have per planet. But that leaves us with pure speculation. One thing is certain, the fleet at Dathomire was not the entire Hapan fleet. The question now is what percentage of it main fleet was it?

Isolder74 wrote:

Prince Isolder wrote:"I've got a fleet on it's way," Isolder said. "They should be here in another seven or eight days."

Han asked, "When you say fleet, how big a fleet are you talking?"

"About eighty destroyers(referring to both Battle Dragons and ISD's)," Isolder said."

Oh, wow. When we know the envoy sent to Coruscant was over sixty-three Battle Dragons and various ISDs? Do you think that fleet just went home and magic fleet B came out of nowhere? Got left at Coruscant? Please. You're unneccesarily multiplying entities here.

No I am not. The Queen Mother came to Coruscant with a fleet of her own and that combined fleet then went to Dathomire. The initial fleet had exactally 63 Battle Dragons. BTW the ISD's in that original fleet were part of the original gift and as such would most likely have been left behind.

Isolder74 wrote:My point is at the time shortly after Endor the Hapans are quite the armed camp. With ready access to Rainbow Gemes from Gallinore and other riches they have access to the wealth to be able to afford them too.

Bullshit. Their economy is entirely self-contained (massive border control and isolation from modern technology in a technologically static civilization, anyone?). Half of the reason Hapan shit is probably so expensive is because they're xenophobic assholes and lock up their borders so its really difficult to get to and they can monopolize it.

Closed? Then what was the prison at Dathomire doing with HAPAN harvester droids? They at least seem to at least have an export market in droids so in some sectors they do have contact with the galactic economy. So what if it is a monopoly, why does that have anything to do with their armed forces?

Isolder74 wrote:We have the sending of 63 Battle Dragons as a simple diplomatic measure one representing each Hapan world. Those can't be everything they have.

Certainly not. Its a lower-limit. But you'll have to do better to magically inflate it to "thousands" of ISDs and Battle Dragons. Shit I should use your logic to use the millions figures of the Imperial Starfleet to refer to ISDs, or even better, SSDs.

Isolder74 wrote:

The Courtship of Princess Leia wrote:There were hundreds of ships in the air--Imperial Star Destroyers and the rust colored disks of Hapan Battle Dragons.

Again, how is this inconsistent with the over sixty Battle Dragon (perhaps even seventy or eighty depending on other forces from Hapes itself and other key worlds) and a couple dozen Star Destroyers? This could easily figure into over a hundred major warships, plus others. Now again, how do you exactly go straight to "thousands"?

I never said it wasn't. Who to say they hadn't lowered their fleet levels by NJO? I gave An upper limit of 1,000 warships at the most(including Battle dragons, Nova Cruisers, and possibly captured ISD's), that is all. It is Isolder himself that said Thousands BTW not me(He could have been adding fighters and other ships to that statement)

Edit: Fixed the quote tags

I do get the impression the Hapans don't have a very good R&D compare to other powers.

1) Make me the Captain of any Hapan Battlecruiser any old day and it'll be the freakin Love Boat.

2) Not having read most of the NJO, I only have the Courtship of Princess Leia to go upon.

a) We are not sure exactly how many ships the Hapans have let alone field. Remember, at least symbolically to the Queen-Mother, she has to respond to Leia's kidnapping and rescue with extreme force for someone who was "destined" to become the next Queen-Mother. So we have to assume at least, she fielded a good size and overwhelming fleet. Not to mention, to retrieve Isolder.

b) Hapan Battlecruisers while not on firepower par with Stardestroyers were made so that they didn't HAVE to be. Smaller in design they operated a sort of gattling-gun type of ship to quickly overwhelm and compensate for their smaller number of guns.

c) The Hapan's were self-contained. The harvester droids (don't rightly recall if they were Hapan), could've come when Hapes was under Imperial jurisdiction.. remember, that prison was essentially isolated since the fall of the Empire. Smuggling in and around Hapes was lucrative but EXTREMELY deadly. The Hapes fleet was serious about keeping unwanted people out, especially regarding their history of pirates.

d) There is little doubt though that the Hapans were filthy rich. Perhaps from internal resources, or stored plunder from their pirate ancestors. But just from the gems they threw at Leia, they could've bought themselves a fleet that would've bitchslapped most opponents.

Trytostaydead wrote:1) Make me the Captain of any Hapan Battlecruiser any old day and it'll be the freakin Love Boat.

I assume you are refeering to the very pretty crew midshipman(Women rule on Hapes remember) YOu would have to be a real good to end up as captian of a Hapan ship.

Isolder74 wrote:

Trytostaydead wrote:1) Make me the Captain of any Hapan Battlecruiser any old day and it'll be the freakin Love Boat.

I assume you are refeering to the very pretty crew midshipman(Women rule on Hapes remember) YOu would have to be a real good to end up as captian of a Hapan ship.

Shucks.. pre-op Transvestite life for me then! =)