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Here is the situation. A fully operational ISD1 crewed by the Rebel Alliance encounters an ISD2 from the Empire while patroling a solar system with a rather large gravity well.

Neither ship can escape quickly and so both captains decide to attack thinking they have the advantage. The ISD2 captain attacks knowing he has more guns and shields and assumes the Rebel ISD1 is not fully stocked on fighters (traditionaly they aren't). The ISD1 ship attacks because the Rebel captain has a full load of fighters and he knows that his pilots have more experience (gotta love shields and hyperdrives) as well as being superior fighters. By the time the ISD1 launches its fighters the ISD2 has comitted and can't turn back.

Ok, the ISD2 has its normal Tie compliment which IIRC is 4 Starfighter squadrons, 1 Interceptor squadron, and 1 Bomber squadron.

The ISD1 has 2 X-Wing squadrons, 2 A-Wing squadrons, 1 Y-Wing squadron, and 1 B-Wing squadron.

At this point where both ships are comitted to battle and can't escape they are still outside of eachothers weapon ranges.

Assume both captains are of equal competence.

Who wins?

The way I see it the Rebel ISD1 has an advantage here. Using his X-Wing and A-Wing squadrons he can blast right through the Starfighter and Interceptors with relatively little trouble. Assuming the A-Wings make a first strike using their missiles that will drop the numbers down. Then the X-Wings and A-Wings get right into the battle and finish them off. Say only 1 X-Wing and 1 A-Wing squadron remains. Now that the Rebel captain has a clear advantage he heads straight for the ISD2 using his X-Wings, Y-Wings, and B-Wings to score critical hits or make torpedoe attacks against the very side of the ISD2 he is going to attack. The remaining A-Wings keep the Tie-Bombers busy. Anyway with the ISD1 captain having an effective firing barrage of 72 torpedoes and being able to repeat this 3 times, he should be able to use this to seriously hurt the ISD2s shields allowing the ISD1 guns to ravage the ISD2.

Now if the ISD2 captain plays things conservatively knowing his fighters don't stand a chance he could run from the ISD1 and force the Rebel fighters to attempt a running engagement near the ISD2. This gives the Tie fighters a much better chance against the Rebel fighters and the ISD2 should be able to escape unscathed.

A smart move by the ISDII captain would be to open up fire with the Heavy Ion Cannons aimd at the ISD's bridge. We know, from Darksaber, that this will cripple an ISD's comm systems, weapons systems, and shields effectibly rendering the ship incapacitated. The ISDII then launches TIEs and Interceptors against the Rebel's fighters (assuming the ISD had enough time to launch fighter); the bombers then head straight for the crippled ISD, they bombard its bridge with concussion missles.

Again form Darksaber, it takes something around 7 minutes for an ISD to regain comm after only one heavy ion hit to the bridge (from a regular ISD), I am not sure how long for shields/weapons. The ISDII meanuevers to the underbelly of the ISD and proceeds to use heavy weapons to destroy the langind bays (stopping any Rebel starfighters from refueling and repairing). The ISDII needs to reinforce shields (taking power from other systems without massivly effecting its own weapons) to withstand the fighter's assault. I expect more then half of the Rebel's starfighters to be destroyed by Imperial starfighter and fire from the ISDII, but I also expect just as much casualties for the Imperial fighters.

As for the fighter battle, the bombers are going to be making attack runs so I am assuming the Rebel starfighters are going to try and stop them (so they can save their mothership). This gives an advantage to Imperial fighters (not a big one but a good one). This entire strategy revolves around the ISDII getting at least 2 heavy ion shots off at the ISD with probably lighter ion shots every 5-10 minutes, this keeps the Rebels constintly repairing. If worse comes to worse then the ISDII can use the ISD's repair time to escape the gravity well.

Main points:
1. ISDII getting ions shots at the ISD.
2. Imperial bombers destroying ISD's bridge; this draws Rebel fighters back to the ISD.
3. ISDII crippling the landing bay on the ISD while targetting weapon emplacements and even engines.
4. Imperial fighter losses are acceptable as long ad the ISD is destroyed.
5. Alternate ending being the Rebel fighters become too much of a threat against the ISDII/fighters and the Imperial ship retreats whith no enemies following (mabye a few Rebel fighters).

This assumes that both ISDs get into gun range before launching their fighters. This seems like a very stupid tactic for the ISD1. Their only advantage is their fighters They should have them launched well before they enter primary gun range.

Alyeska wrote:This assumes that both ISDs get into gun range before launching their fighters. This seems like a very stupid tactic for the ISD1. Their only advantage is their fighters They should have them launched well before they enter primary gun range.

Which is why I said the ISD might have enough time to launch all fighters, but I am not sure on the range of the ion cannons. Also, how far away are the two ships?

Techno_Union wrote:

Alyeska wrote:This assumes that both ISDs get into gun range before launching their fighters. This seems like a very stupid tactic for the ISD1. Their only advantage is their fighters They should have them launched well before they enter primary gun range.

Which is why I said the ISD might have enough time to launch all fighters, but I am not sure on the range of the ion cannons. Also, how far away are the two ships?

Well in the OP I said they are beyond weapons range and the fighters are already launched.

Does the warhead inventory on the ISD1 include Magpulse torpedoes?

Alyeska wrote:

Techno_Union wrote:

Alyeska wrote:This assumes that both ISDs get into gun range before launching their fighters. This seems like a very stupid tactic for the ISD1. Their only advantage is their fighters They should have them launched well before they enter primary gun range.

Which is why I said the ISD might have enough time to launch all fighters, but I am not sure on the range of the ion cannons. Also, how far away are the two ships?

Well in the OP I said they are beyond weapons range and the fighters are already launched.

Whoops, sorry, I forgot that part when replying. But still my plan does work, ISDII charges to weapon's range and fires ion cannons, not sure what the ISD would do.

The thing is the ISD1s captain knows his weaknesses and advantages and he would try his best to keep the ISD2 at range until his fighters have a clear advantage.

IMO the ISD1 has the clear primary advantage.

This is a good example of why fighters are needed in SW, as the fighters give the Rebels the clear advantage here. The ISD2 outguns the ISD1, but the Rebels will easily take out the ISD2's fighters. The Rebel fighters are all more durable and are used to fighting in 3 to 1 odds. With even numbers against superior ships, the Imperial pilots don't stand a chance.

Next, you've given the rebels 2 bomber squadrons and any remaining X-wings will have more torpedoes. That's easily enough firepower to seriously harras the ISD2 without its fighter cover.

By this point, the ISDs should be in a slugging match, with the ISD1 falling behind. The remaining fighters launch a combined attack against the front of the ISD2, which should collapse the already stressed shields (though it's not guaranteed). At this point, the ISD1's heavy turbolasers and heavy ion cannons will be able to hit the ISD2 hull. The fighters will then regroup behind the ISD2.

The ISD2 can either try to turn around to present fresh shields and die when its heavy weapons are facing away from its main enemy and the fighters swing around to pound the front again, or it can keep firing and die because lost shields first.

By the way, Techno_Union: the ISD2 doesn't have heavy ion cannons. It has a bunch of smaller ion cannon batteries (probably medium ion cannons, since they are given are in similar numbers to the medium turbolasers on the ship), but the ISD1 is the one that's equipped with the heavy ion cannons (rear heavy turret on each side). That means it's possible for the ISD1 to perform the trick you mentioned, while I doubt the ISD2's medium ions can break through the shields soon enough to do the same thing.

Mad wrote: By the way, Techno_Union: the ISD2 doesn't have heavy ion cannons. It has a bunch of smaller ion cannon batteries (probably medium ion cannons, since they are given are in similar numbers to the medium turbolasers on the ship), but the ISD1 is the one that's equipped with the heavy ion cannons (rear heavy turret on each side). That means it's possible for the ISD1 to perform the trick you mentioned, while I doubt the ISD2's medium ions can break through the shields soon enough to do the same thing.

Hmmm, in light of this I then take my entire strategy and turn it for the ISD.

What I find kinda funny is I am pitting the key advantage both sides have against the other sides advantage. Its telling how significant an advantage proper fighter support can be. IMO this is one of two reasons why the Executor design was ultimately a failure. Not enough figter support.

I don't get one think. If the ISD's have heavy Ion cannons, and only one shot can disable shields, weapons, and comm for up to 7 min. WHy don't they just always do that at the beginning of every ship/ship engagement instead of using turbolaser? Or do they already?


How effective will the fighters be if they don't have charactershields vs the Imperial fighters. The Empire was supposed to make their fighters good through agility and speed. So they are that worthless compared to non-hero fighters of the Alliance?

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I don't get one think. If the ISD's have heavy Ion cannons, and only one shot can disable shields, weapons, and comm for up to 7 min. WHy don't they just always do that at the beginning of every ship/ship engagement instead of using turbolaser? Or do they already?

One shot is unlikely to penetrate shields unless you have a rather large gun like those on surface batteries. Also, the firing arcs are not so good for the ISD1's VHICs.

How effective will the fighters be if they don't have charactershields vs the Imperial fighters. The Empire was supposed to make their fighters good through agility and speed. So they are that worthless compared to non-hero fighters of the Alliance?

Imperial fighters aren't worthless but Rebel fighters are more robust and typically carry more firepower than what most Imperial fighters.

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I don't get one think. If the ISD's have heavy Ion cannons, and only one shot can disable shields, weapons, and comm for up to 7 min. WHy don't they just always do that at the beginning of every ship/ship engagement instead of using turbolaser? Or do they already?


How effective will the fighters be if they don't have charactershields vs the Imperial fighters. The Empire was supposed to make their fighters good through agility and speed. So they are that worthless compared to non-hero fighters of the Alliance?

Speed isn't so much a concern. Your thinking agility. And agility will only help you so far. As an example lets use US vs Japanesse planes in WW2.

Japanesse planes were incredibly manueverable while US planes weren't. Yet the fact that US planes were well armored made all the difference in the world.

1v1 a P40 vs a Zero would favor the Zero. 1v2 in the Zero's favor was even more lopsided. But if you did 2 P40s vs 4 Zeros, those Zeros were going to die. You see, being able to cover eachothers back along with much better durability meant that the P40s would almost always win.

How does this translate to SW? It means that an inferior number of Alliance fighters can take on a group of Imperial fighters. Imperial mauneverability only helps them so far, Alliance teamwork allows them to defeat the Imperial advantage. Now here is where it gets even worse for the Imperials. Alliance pilots have a lot more experience. Because of the durability of their fighters they will survive to gain more experience and learn from youthful mistakes. Imperial pilots don't have this luxury.

When you take these factors into account as well as the Alliance fighters typicaly being more heavily armed with secondary ordinance and you can see how heavily this engagement favors the Alliance fighter corps.

IIRC doesn't the ISD Mk1 have more HTL's. Sources i'd read before said that the ISD mkII traded HTL's for Ion Cannons.

The ISD-I's superheavy guns can be fired forward, while the ISD-II heavies are designed for broadsides. Combined with the Alliance fighter advantage, the ISD-I is likely to win this one.

Lord Pounder wrote:IIRC doesn't the ISD Mk1 have more HTL's. Sources i'd read before said that the ISD mkII traded HTL's for Ion Cannons.

From the Star Wars Technical Commentaries:

Curtis Saxton wrote:On the ISD-II subclass the turrets are identical, and each carries four turbolaser barrels on either side of a central partition. Therefore each battery has eight barrels and there are 32 of these guns on each side of the ship, for a total of 64. Each barrel is about fourteen metres long and over a metre in diameter. This is somewhat larger than the common turbolaser batteries defending the Death Stars' surfaces.

The earlier ISD-I destroyers carry six bulkier turrets with less numerous but heavier guns. The forward three pairs of turrets are double heavy turbolaser emplacements, for a total of twelve guns; and the rear turrets are double ion cannons.

ISD2 has more heavy turbolaser turrets. ISD1 has fewer, but even bigger heavy turbolaser turrets, and two double heavy ion cannons.

I've seen it hypothesized that the ISD1 is a better vessel in a ship-to-ship engagement due to its smaller number of rather heavier HTL batteries, the ISD2 then being for use against more numerous smaller enemies and/or surface bombardment.

Makes a good deal of sense to me.

Also, if Rebel bombers breaks through the fighter screen, it would mean some of the turbolasers aboard the ISD2 will divert their attention to this threat bringing less guns to bear on the ISD1.

Soontir C'boath wrote:Also, if Rebel bombers breaks through the fighter screen, it would mean some of the turbolasers aboard the ISD2 will divert their attention to this threat bringing less guns to bear on the ISD1.

Why even bother? The ISD1 can deny engagement with the ISD2 and the bombers can hold back waiting for the X-Wings and A-Wings to annihilate the Imperial fighterscreen.

Alyeska wrote:

Soontir C'boath wrote:Also, if Rebel bombers breaks through the fighter screen, it would mean some of the turbolasers aboard the ISD2 will divert their attention to this threat bringing less guns to bear on the ISD1.

Why even bother? The ISD1 can deny engagement with the ISD2 and the bombers can hold back waiting for the X-Wings and A-Wings to annihilate the Imperial fighterscreen.

If the ISD2 relies more heavily on broadsides than the ISD1, even a some guns diverted could help the cause for the Rebels or at least ensure victory a little bit more. Some TIE fighters may also break off of the screen further disorganize their screen to chase after the bombers.

SirNitram wrote:The ISD-I's superheavy guns can be fired forward, while the ISD-II heavies are designed for broadsides. Combined with the Alliance fighter advantage, the ISD-I is likely to win this one.

The ISD2 heavies should be able to tilt up slightly so they can all fire forward as long as the ISD's nose is tilted downward somewhat.

Soontir: the lighter guns will be firing at the fighters, maybe some mediums.. there's no way the heavy guns will fire at anything other than the other capital ship... it'd just be wasteful to try to fire the HTLs at fighters when they won't hit and that firepower is needed to wear down the major threat.

Firing LTL and MTL batteries into a swarm of the enemy fighters including their own doesn't seem such a good idea. I would of course never think the lumbersome HTLs will attack the fighters too.

I meant the ISD2 would concentrate all its LTLs and MTLs toward the ISD1 alongside with the HTLs until any enemy fighters come too close to it without much fighter support.

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I don't get one think. If the ISD's have heavy Ion cannons, and only one shot can disable shields, weapons, and comm for up to 7 min. WHy don't they just always do that at the beginning of every ship/ship engagement instead of using turbolaser? Or do they already?

Daala (the one who fired the shot), had simphoned all power from the turbolasers to one ion turret, then fired at Harrsk's ISD without warning. What that means I am not sure, but there ya go. But usualy large ion cannons are nescessary to take down ISDs/ISDIIs/SSDs/ect.

Ahhh, so it was a fluke or something?