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I need to try to clear up some issues with the Hoth ion cannon.

As I understand it, the ion cannon fires charged particles that play havoc with a target ship's electrical systems, affecting it much like an electromagnetic pulse. The effect is generally temporary, but the target can be effectively incapacitated by a strong enough hit.

So, is there any rational scientific basis for this effect?

The weapon supposedly fires charged particles, but would passage through Hoth's atmosphere not significantly degrade and disperse the beam before it reached a target in orbit?

Again, the beam is supposedly composed of charged particles, but wouldn't the beam have to be effectively neutral in charge? If it were all positively charged particles, for example, the cannon itself would be left with a large negative charge which would attract the particles in the beam back toward the source.

The beam incapacitated the ISD Avenger, but doesn't an ISD have particle shields? Shouldn't particle shields be able to repel the particles in an ion cannon bolt? Are we dealing with an extremely powerful weapon or a weapon that can, by its nature, penetrate the defenses of an ISD easily? If the latter, why don't the Rebels use more of them (they should have them on every capital ship in their fleet)?

Ted C wrote:The weapon supposedly fires charged particles, but would passage through Hoth's atmosphere not significantly degrade and disperse the beam before it reached a target in orbit?

Degrade, sure, but it didn't exactly hang around a long time in the atmosphere. I would say it depends on to power level.

Ted C wrote:Again, the beam is supposedly composed of charged particles, but wouldn't the beam have to be effectively neutral in charge? If it were all positively charged particles, for example, the cannon itself would be left with a large negative charge which would attract the particles in the beam back toward the source.

Err.. I don't follow you. It should work similar to a stationary ion pulse engine.

Ted C wrote:The beam incapacitated the ISD Avenger, but doesn't an ISD have particle shields?

Yes..

Ted C wrote:Shouldn't particle shields be able to repel the particles in an ion cannon bolt?

Depends on power level. Also, the bolt creates a feedback with opposite charge, creating electricity by sucking free electrons out of the target. So the main damaging component comes from within. Well, it's my theory anyway, take it or leave it. I don't claim to know if this is effective enough to be viable at low power, or if it is only possible with ridiculous power levels, which should be precisely what we're talking about.

Ted C wrote:Are we dealing with an extremely powerful weapon or a weapon that can, by its nature, penetrate the defenses of an ISD easily? If the latter, why don't the Rebels use more of them (they should have them on every capital ship in their fleet)?

Would take one helluva reactor. The KDY-150 has an underground reactor IIRC. Besides, what is better.. one giant ion cannon, or 50 smaller ones with the same total power?

nightmare wrote:

Ted C wrote:Again, the beam is supposedly composed of charged particles, but wouldn't the beam have to be effectively neutral in charge? If it were all positively charged particles, for example, the cannon itself would be left with a large negative charge which would attract the particles in the beam back toward the source.

Err.. I don't follow you. It should work similar to a stationary ion pulse engine.

I'm not sure what a "stationary ion pulse engine" is or does. An ion beam would presumably by a stream of ions; atoms that have been energized until their electrons have been disassociated from their nuclei. The loose electrons carry negative charge while the nuclei carry positive charge, but the entire mass still adds up to zero charge.

If you fire only the electrons from the weapon, the nuclei have to stay in the cannon somewhere, creating a large positive static charge. Since negatively charged ions are attracted to positive charges, the particles in the beam you fired will tend to turn back to the cannon. If they're propelled with sufficient velocity, it might not matter, but you'd still have that steadily increasing positive charge on your weapon to deal with.

nightmare wrote:

Ted C wrote:Shouldn't particle shields be able to repel the particles in an ion cannon bolt?

Depends on power level. Also, the bolt creates a feedback with opposite charge, creating electricity by sucking free electrons out of the target.

Then you're suggesting that the ion cannon beam is not electrically neutral. To work as you say, it must be composed primarily (if not exclusively) of positively charged ions. The cannon itself must therefore deal with its surplus of electrons somehow.

nightmare wrote: So the main damaging component comes from within. Well, it's my theory anyway, take it or leave it. I don't claim to know if this is effective enough to be viable at low power, or if it is only possible with ridiculous power levels, which should be precisely what we're talking about.

nightmare wrote:

Ted C wrote:Are we dealing with an extremely powerful weapon or a weapon that can, by its nature, penetrate the defenses of an ISD easily? If the latter, why don't the Rebels use more of them (they should have them on every capital ship in their fleet)?

Would take one helluva reactor. The KDY-150 has an underground reactor IIRC. Besides, what is better.. one giant ion cannon, or 50 smaller ones with the same total power?

Imperial and Rebel warships routinely generate enough power to fire multi-gigaton energy bolts, rapidly accelerate their huge masses to thousands of kilometers/second, and fling themselves across the galaxy through hyperspace at thousands of light-years per hour (an act which supposedly consumes as much energy as a large planetary nation might use in a year or more). It's difficult to see how the reactor of a hastily built Rebel base in an obscure system would be vastly more powerful than a starship's reactor.

I think we're talking past each other a bit.. I'll try to clarify. Yes, I suggest that the beam isn't neutral. Yes, the cannon has to deal with it, of course. I'm saying it wouldn't backfire since ion engines work along a similar principle.

As for the reactor bit? There's plenty of evidence that seemingly relatively small planetary installations can easily be a threat to the largest starships, and that includes turbolasers. If you can see any other conclusion than that planetary defences > starships, I'm willing to listen. The KDY-150 is btw in no source I'm aware called "hastily built" or "obscure" It's the largest ion cannon you can get.

The KDY-150 looks like a "turnkey" solution in that it includes the fire control systems, reactor and weapon that can be quickly deployed. Integration with a sophisticated space-defense system would obviously take much more work, but the Rebellion didn't exactly have any of those.

phongn wrote:The KDY-150 looks like a "turnkey" solution in that it includes the fire control systems, reactor and weapon that can be quickly deployed. Integration with a sophisticated space-defense system would obviously take much more work, but the Rebellion didn't exactly have any of those.

What the heck did they haul it (the KDY) to Hoth in?

Ted C wrote:Again, the beam is supposedly composed of charged particles, but wouldn't the beam have to be effectively neutral in charge? If it were all positively charged particles, for example, the cannon itself would be left with a large negative charge which would attract the particles in the beam back toward the source.

If it's a mix of positive and negative particles, it would have a net-neutral charge, and the biggest problem would be beam-spreading. You could solve this with extreme velocity, but I'm not sure what it would look like visually as it passes through the atmosphere.

The beam incapacitated the ISD Avenger, but doesn't an ISD have particle shields? Shouldn't particle shields be able to repel the particles in an ion cannon bolt?

Yes, but high-velocity movement of charged particles will create electromagnetic fields, which I suppose is the idea.

Are we dealing with an extremely powerful weapon or a weapon that can, by its nature, penetrate the defenses of an ISD easily? If the latter, why don't the Rebels use more of them (they should have them on every capital ship in their fleet)?

The EU descriptions of ion cannons really don't mesh very well with the visuals from TESB.

Augustus wrote:

phongn wrote:The KDY-150 looks like a "turnkey" solution in that it includes the fire control systems, reactor and weapon that can be quickly deployed. Integration with a sophisticated space-defense system would obviously take much more work, but the Rebellion didn't exactly have any of those.

What the heck did they haul it (the KDY) to Hoth in?

Home One's hangar bay if nothing else. But capturing ye old 5 km supertransport shoudn't be hideously difficult, especially if the Rebels want to claim to be any sort of threat to the GE.

Darth Wong's reply is so much more elegant than my own.. I don't get it.. usually I have no problems explaining what I mean, but here it's like I'm socially handicapped or something.. shut up you in the back!

Ted, particle beams inherently trigger EMPs as a tertiary effect. Not much of an issue unless I totally misunderstand you.

In a ST:TNG ep Worf announced the alien ship fired a beam of Positrons and "Jacketed" Anti-Protons.

Perhaps this jacketing effect can be applied to the positively charged nuclei to prevent the positive and negative particles from "communicating" charge to each other.