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ROTJ novelization.

Posted: 2004-07-13 03:45am
by Vympel
From the first print, 1983, which I just found hidden in one of my old bookshelves:
Stormtroopers fired their laser pistols at the furry creatures, killing or wounding many- only to be overrun by dozens more in their place.
Self explanatory.
Scores of them rallied behind Chewbacca ... Chewie was flinging stormtroopers left and right, in a selfless Wookie frenzy, any time he saw them physically harming his small friends. The Ewoks, for their part, formed equally self-sacrificing cadres to do nothing but follow Chewbacca and throw themsevles upon any soldiers who started getting the upper hand on him.
Stormtroopers/ Imperial troops started getting the upper hand on a Wookie.
On Endor, the battle of the bunker continued. Stormtroopers kept irradiating Ewoks with sophisticated weaponry, while the fuzzy little warriors bashed away ...
and
Chewie climbed down inside. It took him half a minute to master the controls- Imperial technology was pretty standardized. And then, methodially, one by one, he began approaching the other, unsuspecting, Imperial Walkers, and blasting them to dust. Most had no idea what was happening. As the giant war-machines began going up in falmes, the Ewoks were reinspired. They rallied behind Chewie's Walker. The Wookie was turning the tide of battle.
Explicit.

There's also lots of descriptions of the Ewoks and their tactics- hit and run, damming and then releasing a stream, dug-out pits, various ways of using logs, their more stupid tactics (catapults), climbing onto AT-STs and pouring "lizard-oil" down their gun slits etc (presumably the side guns, since getting any into the front ones would be ... interesting).

Posted: 2004-07-13 04:06am
by Zac Naloen
Stormtroopers/ Imperial troops started getting the upper hand on a Wookie.

hmm... possibility that its the number of stormtroopers getting the upper hand? rather than an individual one?

Posted: 2004-07-13 04:40am
by Vympel
Zac Naloen wrote:

hmm... possibility that its the number of stormtroopers getting the upper hand? rather than an individual one?
Possibly. Good to know that even a Wookie isn't invincible in hand to hand against a few of the Emperor's finest :)

Posted: 2004-07-17 01:18pm
by Vympel
P.1 "The Death Star was the Empire's armored battle station, nearly twice as big as its predecessor, which Rebel forces had destroyed so many years before- nearly twice as big, but more than twice as powerful."
Size and Scope: The Death Star II is nearly twice as big (vague), but more than twice as powerful, as the original.
P.3 "Only now, the security web was beginning to seperate, to retract and form a clear channel- a channel through which the dot that was the Imperial shuttle ailed, unimpeded, toward the massive space station."
Shields and Forcefields: Channels can be opened for craft to pass through, without deactivating the entire shield.
P. 13-14 "while a second droid, hanging upside down, was having red-hot irons applied to its feet; it had emitted the electronic scream Threepio heard a few moments earlier, as the sensor circuits in its metal skin melted in agony."
Droids: droids have sensor circuits implanted in their skin, through which they feel pain.
P. 46 "I was a Jedi rule-of-thumb, but it took the soldiers in the second skiff by surprise: when outnumbered, attack. This drives the force of the enemy in toward himself."
The Force: Jedi prefer attack over defence, even when outnumbered. One could specualte that "driving the force of the enemy in toward himself" gives the Jedi an advantage when using the Force in battle.
P. 64 "We fought ... your father fell into a molten pit."
Medical: The purpose of Darth Vader's suit is to keep him alive from injuries sustained in this fall.
P. 69 "Back in the days when he was merely Senator Palpatine, the galaxy had been a Republic of stars, cared for and protected by the Jedi Knighthood that had watched over it for centuries. But inevitably it had grown too large- too massive a bureaucracy had been required, over too many years, in order to maintain the Republic. Corruption had set in.]

A few greedy senators had started the chain reaction of malaise, some said: but who could know? A few perverted bureaucrats, arrogant, self-serving, and suddenly a fever was in the stars. Governor turned on governor, values eroded, trusts were broken- fear had spread like an epidemic in those early years, rapidly and without visible cause, and no one knew what was happening, or why.

And so Senator Palpatine had seized the moment."
Culture: Palpatine took advantage of the Republic's weakness, but did not cause it.
P. 71 "In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bmombers, Sullustan cargo freighters, Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian skyhoppers, X-wing, Y-wing, and A-wing fighters, suttles, transport vehicles, manowars. Every Reel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions. They were led by the largest of the Rebel Star Cruisers, the Headquarters Frigate."
Size and Scope: an overview of the Rebel fleet.

Misc: More evidence of Leia's "we have no weapons" lies to Moff Tarkin: Alderaan produced gunships.
P. 71 "At the center of the briefing room was a large, circular light-table, projected above which a holographic image of the unfinished Imperial Death Star hovered beside the Moon of Endor, whose scintilating protective deflector shield encompassed them both."
Shields and Forcefields: the deflector shield encompassed both the Death Star and Endor.
P. 72 "There had been other leaders, but many were killed when the Empire's first Death Star annihilated the planet Alderaan."
Misc: another motivation for destroying Alderaan, besides a demonstration: it was a leadership nexus for the Rebellion.
P. 84 "This unit composed of the elite groundfighters of the Rebel Alliance. A scruffy bunch in some ways, they'd each been hand-picked for initiative, cunning and ferocity. Some were trained commandos, some paroled criminals- but they all hated the Empire with a passion that exceeded self-preservation."
Misc: The Rebel commandos are both elite, and somewhat suicidal (similarities to mujhadeen?)
P. 96 "Leia dove for his fallen laser pistol. She rolled, fired and hit the scout squarely in the chest, flash-burning his heart"
Ground combat: blaster firepower effects on internal organs.
P. 122 "Imperial walkers were parked off to one side- square, armored, two-legged war machines, big enough for a squad of soldiers to stand inside, firing laser cannon in all diretions."
Ground Combat: These are clearly not film AT-ST walkers, but a larger version. AT-STs cannot carry a squad standing inside.
P. 127 "The vast Rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance, but in precision"
Hyperdrive: The paradigm-shift effect of hyperdrive speed is explicity stated. Distance is unimportant.
P. 127 "The calculations required to launch such a meticulously coordinated offensive at lightspeed made it necessary to fix on a stationary point- that is, stationary relative to the point of re-entry from hyperspace. The point chosen by the Rebel command was a small, blue plnet of the Sullust system."
Hyperdrive: The requirements for a precise assault.
P. 128

"They were doing what a guerilla force must never do: engage the enemy like a traditional amy. The Imperial army, fighting the Rebellion's guerilla war, was always losing- unless it won. The Rebels, by contrast, ere always winning- unless the lost. And now, here was the most dangerous situation- the Alliance drawn into the open, to fight on the Empire's terms: if the Rebels lost this battle, they lost the war."
Misc: The supreme gamble the Rebel Alliance took is explicitly stated, as is the nature of their resistance (guerilla insurgency).
P. 140

"Some didn't make it. Three flanking X-wings nicked the invisible deflector shield, spinning out of control, exploding in flames along the shield surface."
Shields and Forcefields: Particle shields.
P. 141

"The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go."
Naval Tactics: The Imperial fleets arrival from hiding is described, as is the nature of the trap. The Imperial fleet was physically blocking all escape routes, and/or had deployed Interdictor cruisers for the purpose.
P. 141 "We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and-"

Suddenly the Star Cruiser was rocked by thermonuclear fireworks outside the observation window."
Naval Weapons: The Star Cruisers main battery has variable firepower.

Shields and Forcefields: Power can be added to shields.

The incoming TIE Fighters (since only the fighters were attacking) probably used some kind of missiles on the Rebel fleet.
P. 146 "Luke watched with impotent horror, as the unbelievably huge laser beam radiated out from the muzzle of the Death Star. It touched- for only an instant- one of the Rebel Star Cruisers surging in the midst of the heaviest fighting. And in the next instant, the Star Cruiser was vaporized. Blown to dust. Returned to its most elemental particles, in a single burst of light."
Naval Weapons: The Death Star's main weapon was sufficiently powerful to vaporize the Liberty completely.
P. 148 "Forward ships have made contact with the Imperial fleet, sir.

"Concentrate your fire on their power generators. If we can knock out their shields, our fighters might stand a chance against them."

The ship was rocked by another explosion- a laserbolt hit to one of the aft gyrostabilisers.

"Intensify auxiliary shields!" someone yelled."
Naval Tactics: The Rebel fleet targeted Imperial power generators to knock out their shields. The destruction of the globe on the Executor was therefore a symptom of this tactic, not a cause (those globes are not power generators).

Shields and Forcefields: The "Headquarters Frigate" has auxiliary shields.
P. 154 "But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like their Destroyers and our Cruisers!" Ackbar fumed at the unthinkable- but their options were running out.

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered.
"And they'll think we know more!"
Naval Tactics: such close range engagements were unheard of at this time.
P. 160 "But if it was force-generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they course over and into him ..."
The Force: Luke, despite little training, is able to duplicate Yoda's feat in AOTC, for a very short time.
P. 164

"Cargo ships loaded with charge were set on collision courses with fortress-vessels, their crews abandoning shops to fates that were uncertain, at best."
Naval Tactics: The Rebel fleet uses "fireship" tactics- success is not stated. The presence of the Rebel transports from TESB in the fleet in the film are thus explained. These transports must've been prepped when the fleet was assembled, indicating the alliance possibly expected to use these against any defending ships.
P. 164-165

"Lando, Wedge, Blue Leader, and Green Wing went in to take out one of the larger Destroyers- the Empire's main communications ship. It had already been disabled by direct cannonade from the Rebel cruiser it had subsequently destroyed; but its damages were reparable- so the Rebels had to strike while it was still licking its wounds."

"Lando's squadron went in low- rock-throwing distance- this prevented the Destroyer from using its bigger guns. It also made the fighters invisible until they were directly visualized"
Naval Tactics: fighters were able to exploit the weakness of this Communications Ship only because a Rebel Star Cruiser had done the hard work and paid the price.

Naval Weapons: Common sense- by hugging the hull of captial ships, fighters reduce the exposure to weaponry and confound sensors that would otherwise spot them.

Naval Weapons: The communications ship is probably larger than ISDs.
[after the destruction of the Communications Ship]
Ackbar reached Calrissian on the comlink. "The jamming has stopped. We have a reading on the shield."
Sensors: the communications ship was the source of the jamming.
P. 168 "Inside the bunker on Endor, Imperial controllers watched the main view-screen of the Ewok battle just outside. Though the image was clogged with static, the fighting seemed to be winding down. About time, since they'd initially been told that the locals on this moon were harmless nonbelligerents."
Ground Combat: Imperial troops were told the Ewoks were harmless.
P. 168 "Sir, the shield around the Death Star has lost its power."

Ackbar looked at the view screen; the electronically generated web was gone. The moon, and the Death tar, now floated in black, empty, unprotected space."
Shields and Forcefields: Again, the moon protected both the moon and the Death Star II.
P. 169 "The Falcon plunged to the surface of the Death Star, followed by a horde of Rebel fighters, followed by a still massing but disorganzied array of Imperial TIE fighters- while three Rebel Star Cruisers headed for the huge Imperial Super Star Destroyer, Vader's flagship, which seemed to be having difficulties with its guidance system."
Naval Tactics: the Executor was targeted by three Rebel Star Cruisers at this point in the battle, and was experiencing technical difficulties with its guidance system, possibly due to battle damage. This may have contributed to its crash into the Death Star II. Note this is before Ackbar's order to concentrate all firepower.

The Force: the defending TIE Fighters are disorganized. At this point, the Emperor is dead. See below.
P. 171

"Suddenly course white static blanketed all the viewscreens.

"My scope's gone!" yelled Wedge.

"Cut speed", cautioned Lando. "Some kind of power dicharge causing interference."
"Switch to visual scanning".
Sensors: a power discharge of some sort interferes with the fighter sensors. It may have been dedicated or ad hoc jamming, related to Jerjerrod's later attempts to slow the fighters progress.
P. 172 "For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Addded to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Ccruisers- smelling fear in the enemy- merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected- this was simply where it led.

Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear
."
The Force: it is explicitly stated that it was the death of the Emperor that caused the general collapse of an effective Imperial defense near the end of the battle- from the disorganized response to the Rebel fighter attack on the Death Star, the sequence of events that led to the loss of the Executor, to the naval defeat in general, Imperial efficiency was drastically reduced. The Emperor was possibly practicing Battle Meditation.
P. 177 "The fighters in the superstructure are eluding our defense system, Commander. Shouldn't we-"

"Flood sectors 304 and 138. That should slow them up."
Sensors: The interference mentioned earlier probably had something to do with the Death Star superstructure internal defense system.
P. 178

"It's too big, Gold Leader," yelled Wedge. "My proton torpedoes won't even dent that."

"Go for the power regulator on the north tower." Lando directed. "I'll take the main reactor. We're carrying concussion missiles- they should penetrate."
Naval Weapons: concussion missiles have greater penetration than proton torpedoes.

Posted: 2004-07-17 01:18pm
by Vympel
Thoughts, comments? What do you think?

Posted: 2004-07-17 01:50pm
by The Nomad
Vympel wrote:Shields and Forcefields: Again, the moon protected both the moon and the Death Star II.
Nit-pick: "the shield protected both the moon and the DSII" :P :wink:

Posted: 2004-07-17 02:01pm
by Companion Cube
This quote:
P. 172 "For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Addded to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Ccruisers- smelling fear in the enemy- merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected- this was simply where it led.

Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear."
Reminded me of a passage in Heir To The Empire where Thrawn describes virtually the same thing.:
Heir to the Empire, page 50 wrote:"The Emperor was not directing the battle," Pellaeon snapped with a fire that startled him. "Not in any way. I was there, Admiral-I know."

"Yes, Captain, you were there," Thrawn said, his voice abruptly hard. "And it's time you gave up your blindfold and faced the truth, no matter how bitter you find it. You had no real fighting spirit of your own anymore-none of you in the Imperial Fleet did. It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with the strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependant on that presence as if you were all borg-implanted into a combat computer."

"That's not true," Pellaeon shot back, stomach twisting painfully within him. "It can't be. We fought on after his death."

"Yes," Thrawn said, his voice quiet and contemptuous. "You fought on. Like cadets."

Posted: 2004-07-17 02:50pm
by vakundok
Hm, I have never thought about the droids feeling pain.

The name of Ackbar's flagship is Headquarters Frigate. Home One is simply a call sign, like Gold Leader for Calrissian/the Falcon.

Because the jamming ended right after the communication ship was destroyed does not mean that it was the source of the jamming. (Note it was labelled as already disabled, despite it fired). This interconnection is just the same as the globes on the Executor: Globe destroyed + shield loss reported = the globes must be connected to shield functions. You know the result of that.

The destroyers are supervessels.

Since the AT-STs were showed parking there, I think it overwrites the novelisation. (Side note: I do not understand, why they are called scout transports instead of tactical scouts for example ...)

Other:
Rebell cruisers bombarded the DSII even before the Executor crashed. After the crash, every single hit shook the station.

Posted: 2004-07-17 03:03pm
by Sharp-kun
Vympel wrote:
P. 46 "I was a Jedi rule-of-thumb, but it took the soldiers in the second skiff by surprise: when outnumbered, attack. This drives the force of the enemy in toward himself."
The Force: Jedi prefer attack over defence, even when outnumbered. One could specualte that "driving the force of the enemy in toward himself" gives the Jedi an advantage when using the Force in battle.
Nitpick. It doesn't say that Jedi prefer attack over defence all the time as you imply (maybe I'm reading you wrong). All we can gather from this is that is their usual tactic when outnumbered, but not in all combat situations.

Posted: 2004-07-17 03:09pm
by Illuminatus Primus
Vympel wrote:Misc: More evidence of Leia's "we have no weapons" lies to Moff Tarkin: Alderaan produced gunships.
Unjustified Assumption. Alderaan was a participating combatant in the Clone Wars. The Star Wars galactic civilization has achieved technological plateau. No reason to assume they were building weapons after the end of the Clone Wars, or before Alderaan was already destroyed.
Vympel wrote:Shields and Forcefields: the deflector shield encompassed both the Death Star and Endor.
Same book says the Moon was also left totally unprotected when the generator blew, so this is no escape clause for the Endor Holocaust, though I know there's assholes who aren't going to read the book for themselves and leap onto this one bit.
Vympel wrote:Misc: another motivation for destroying Alderaan, besides a demonstration: it was a leadership nexus for the Rebellion.
Nothing we didn't already know. Bail Organa was one of its founding members and Winter an infamous Rebel agent that even had Mara Jade on her tail.
Vympel wrote:
P. 122 "Imperial walkers were parked off to one side- square, armored, two-legged war machines, big enough for a squad of soldiers to stand inside, firing laser cannon in all diretions."
Ground Combat: These are clearly not film AT-ST walkers, but a larger version. AT-STs cannot carry a squad standing inside.
Some of Saxton's cataloged-but-undesignated walkers?
Vympel wrote:
P. 127 "The calculations required to launch such a meticulously coordinated offensive at lightspeed made it necessary to fix on a stationary point- that is, stationary relative to the point of re-entry from hyperspace. The point chosen by the Rebel command was a small, blue plnet of the Sullust system."
Hyperdrive: The requirements for a precise assault.
Revisionism or previously unknown planet? The officially described planet of Sullust is an extraordinarily geologically volatile and volcanically active red-black world. Perhaps a further-out gas giant containing significant quantities of methane in the upper atmosphere, giving it a blue hue, analogous to Neptune?
Vympel wrote:Naval Tactics: The Imperial fleets arrival from hiding is described, as is the nature of the trap. The Imperial fleet was physically blocking all escape routes, and/or had deployed Interdictor cruisers for the purpose.
The TFNers have cataloged an Interdictor force further out. Don't know the source material, though.
Vympel wrote:
P. 146 "Luke watched with impotent horror, as the unbelievably huge laser beam radiated out from the muzzle of the Death Star. It touched- for only an instant- one of the Rebel Star Cruisers surging in the midst of the heaviest fighting. And in the next instant, the Star Cruiser was vaporized. Blown to dust. Returned to its most elemental particles, in a single burst of light."
Naval Weapons: The Death Star's main weapon was sufficiently powerful to vaporize the Liberty completely.
Most elemental particles? Any way to calculate the amount of energy to reduce a similarly-massed lump of...say-iron, to free protons, neutrons, and electrons?
Vympel wrote:Naval Tactics: The Rebel fleet targeted Imperial power generators to knock out their shields. The destruction of the globe on the Executor was therefore a symptom of this tactic, not a cause (those globes are not power generators).
Bleedthrough-fire can still cause physical damage before outright shield failure. Perhaps the idea was to disrupt power-generation and shield grid equipment in as rapid a manner as possible, hoping to knock down its shields faster and with less firepower than necessary by sheer brute force.
Vympel wrote:
P. 168 "Sir, the shield around the Death Star has lost its power."

Ackbar looked at the view screen; the electronically generated web was gone. The moon, and the Death tar, now floated in black, empty, unprotected space."
Shields and Forcefields: Again, the moon protected both the moon and the Death Star II.
There's the unprotected moon quote.
Vympel wrote:
P. 178

"It's too big, Gold Leader," yelled Wedge. "My proton torpedoes won't even dent that."

"Go for the power regulator on the north tower." Lando directed. "I'll take the main reactor. We're carrying concussion missiles- they should penetrate."
Naval Weapons: concussion missiles have greater penetration than proton torpedoes.
Overgeneralization. The Falcon's Akyryd concussion missles have better penetrative capability than the X-Wing's proton torpedoes, but this is not assured for all models.

Posted: 2004-07-17 10:21pm
by Connor MacLeod
Vympel wrote:
P.3 "Only now, the security web was beginning to seperate, to retract and form a clear channel- a channel through which the dot that was the Imperial shuttle ailed, unimpeded, toward the massive space station."
Shields and Forcefields: Channels can be opened for craft to pass through, without deactivating the entire shield.
Not surprising, considering that by and largge Star Wars shielding is composed of multiple and largely independent segments (As evidenced, for example, by the ability to reinforce shielding in specific directions by "angling", or "double front" deflectors, ,etc...) as well as the ability to project shields over great distances (the ability to cover the Death Star despite thousands of kilometers separating it from the Sanctuary Moon, for example.)

It also makes sense given that many starships commonly employ multiple shield generators and projectors to fully enshroud an object - a large moon or planet would require a fairly large number of projectors/generators to provide complete coverage.

P. 96 "Leia dove for his fallen laser pistol. She rolled, fired and hit the scout squarely in the chest, flash-burning his heart"
Ground combat: blaster firepower effects on internal organs.
It would have to penetrrate through the flesh (and possibly bone) to reach the heartt (around four to six inches depth, I believe) Also may imply the creation of a rather sizable hole, if it damaged the entire heart -possibly vaporization.

Given that an average human heart weighs around .2 to .5 kilograms, I'd estimate we're looking at between several hundred kilojoules, minimum to several megajoules (depending on the degree of damage done - b oiling/vaporizing the water content of the body, incineration of flesh/bone, etc.)

This would be consistent with examples in ANH (a blaster bolt pierces a stormtrooper helmet IIRC and blows the head apart, at least parttly, which would suggest something around a couple of megajoules as well, disregarding armor effects and such.) and the fact a single blaster bolt blasted out the upper third of a human chest in Tyrant's Test (which I also estimate would be in the low MJ range.)
P. 127 "The vast Rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance, but in precision"
Hyperdrive: The paradigm-shift effect of hyperdrive speed is explicity stated. Distance is unimportant.
It also suggests to us that Rebel hyperdrive-equipped starfighters can traverse hundreds of light-years without running out of fuel (lower limit, I believe.)
P. 127 "The calculations required to launch such a meticulously coordinated offensive at lightspeed made it necessary to fix on a stationary point- that is, stationary relative to the point of re-entry from hyperspace. The point chosen by the Rebel command was a small, blue plnet of the Sullust system."
Hyperdrive: The requirements for a precise assault.
Again, not surprising. Accurate coordinates are important for accurate jumps, especially in microjumps (this is also why manuvering in hyperspace, while not impossible, is difficult). Especially given that target locations can shift over time (or that random phenomena can "block" passage. I believe this is analgous to what Han told Luke in ANH (both movie and novelization - imprecise calculations could lead to accidetnal/fatal collisions.)

P. 128

"They were doing what a guerilla force must never do: engage the enemy like a traditional amy. The Imperial army, fighting the Rebellion's guerilla war, was always losing- unless it won. The Rebels, by contrast, ere always winning- unless the lost. And now, here was the most dangerous situation- the Alliance drawn into the open, to fight on the Empire's terms: if the Rebels lost this battle, they lost the war."
Misc: The supreme gamble the Rebel Alliance took is explicitly stated, as is the nature of their resistance (guerilla insurgency).
This was something I found perversely minimalistic and hard to swlalow, since it implies nearly ALL of the Rebels' naval strength was deployed at Endor. Personally, I find it hard to believe that, given the scale of the Galaxy, a few dozen ships could represent a critical/major investment of resourcese for the Rebels. Especially since within months or years the Rebels are implied to have started taking territory from the Empire (which suggests they should have had rather substantial naval strength built up)

To be fair, the radio drama does suggest that they lost at least one Shipyard (the Bajic shipyards) due to Imperial assault just prior (which was detailed in Shadows of the Empire), but that implies they only lost 100 ships. Still, its kind of odd that smaller rebellions in the EU (the Yevetha, the Corellian trilogy "revolt", etc.) are implied to have
P. 140

"Some didn't make it. Three flanking X-wings nicked the invisible deflector shield, spinning out of control, exploding in flames along the shield surface."
Shields and Forcefields: Particle shields.
Unsurprising, again, given that the shuttle that dropped Vader off and the Tyderium needed shield deactivation before they could pass ;)
Naval Tactics: The Imperial fleets arrival from hiding is described, as is the nature of the trap. The Imperial fleet was physically blocking all escape routes, and/or had deployed Interdictor cruisers for the purpose.
I also believe the novelization suggested that not long after the Empire startetd emergijng from around Endor, they and the Rebel warships started trading long range fire. Someone I know once did some estimates of the Rebel's distance from the Death Star, and placed it around the thousands of kilometers range (certainly no less than hundreds of kilometers away) - and the Death Star itself is at least 2000 kilometers away from Endor.

Depending on the distancec of the Imperial ships from Endor (and the Deaht Star) as they come around, we could be looking at weapons ranges of many thousands of kilometers, at a bare minimum.. possibly as great as a few tens of thousands of kilometers or so, depending on how you play with the variables.

What's interesting is that not only is this a canonical suggestion of weapons range, it also suggests this is the norm, rather than the exception for capital ships.

P. 141 "We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and-"

Suddenly the Star Cruiser was rocked by thermonuclear fireworks outside the observation window."
Naval Weapons: The Star Cruisers main battery has variable firepower.

Shields and Forcefields: Power can be added to shields.
Interesting about this quote: does it suggest that Rebel weapons and shields were operating at less than maximum effect, or is it suggesting that the Rebels could (at least temporarily) boost their weapons and shields beyond "normal" maximums? Perhaps if the latter, this may help explain one of the benefits of redundancy - they can push their hardware beyond safe specs without suffering frrom overall loss of effiiency)
The incoming TIE Fighters (since only the fighters were attacking) probably used some kind of missiles on the Rebel fleet.
Likely, given that Wedge and Lando (IIRC) were concerned about the fighters going after various ships (like the Medical Frigate). Whether or not the Rebels considered them a threat to the more dedicated warships is another question.

Whats also interesting is that I don't recall seeing any TIE bombers in those opening waves... just TIE fighters and interceptors. Either the bombers were not present (and the other TIEs had missiles, which we know is possible), or they were simply not immediately present or shown onscreen.
Naval Weapons: The Death Star's main weapon was sufficiently powerful to vaporize the Liberty completely.
Watch the destrtuction of the Liberty in the movie - this is evident frfom the visuals (no noticable debris.)

Some other interesting effects: The ship itself was not noticably moved or affected by the superlaser's momentum (which had to have carried at least enough energy to overwhelm the shields.) Nor did the superlaser appear to "shoot through" the ship from one side to another (in both of the Star Cruisers whose destruction is witnessed in the movie - we see one from behind and one from the front) If we know the approximate energy level of the beam (and the ship's velocity, if any, whcih can be estimated from onscreen), one should be able to estimate the mass of the starship.

Also, the Star Cruiser's shielding did not display any interesting splintering/flash effects we normally associate with shields. This is not surprising, though, given that the beam striking the shield was of far greater magnitude than the shields re designed to handle (think about Ackbar's statmeents to Lando). In such a case, the deflector is not strong enough to induce much (if any) splintering of the beam (and thus the beam retains most of its cohesion/energy). Whereas by contrast, a planetary shield (like Alderaan's) would be more readily designed to handle such energies (and thus is liklier to generate the splintering/flashes we expect to see.)
P. 148 "Forward ships have made contact with the Imperial fleet, sir.

"Concentrate your fire on their power generators. If we can knock out their shields, our fighters might stand a chance against them."

The ship was rocked by another explosion- a laserbolt hit to one of the aft gyrostabilisers.

"Intensify auxiliary shields!" someone yelled."
Naval Tactics: The Rebel fleet targeted Imperial power generators to knock out their shields. The destruction of the globe on the Executor was therefore a symptom of this tactic, not a cause (those globes are not power generators).

Shields and Forcefields: The "Headquarters Frigate" has auxiliary shields.
Regarding the shields... we alreadyh of course know about the redundancy... the auxiliary thing may simply be that. As for the power generators, I find that kind of curious, sincec knocking out the "power genrators" would logically not only disable the shields, but it would pretty much disable the overall combat capability of the ship. Maybe what he is implying is knocking out the power generation connections to the shields (or other systems) rather than destroying the reactor itself (this would explain the subsequent "disabling" of the communications ship later on.)
P. 154 "But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like their Destroyers and our Cruisers!" Ackbar fumed at the unthinkable- but their options were running out.

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered.
"And they'll think we know more!"
Naval Tactics: such close range engagements were unheard of at this time.
Especially given that when Ackbar orders the attack on the Executor, the novel indiactes the ship was only "miles" away.

Its also worth noting that in the Third Lando Calrissian novel, "point blank" range in the Star Wars universe is indicated to be at least 100 kilometers.
P. 160 "But if it was force-generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they course over and into him ..."
The Force: Luke, despite little training, is able to duplicate Yoda's feat in AOTC, for a very short time.
Although its doubtful the Emperor was going full out either at the time (holding back to torture Luke and prolong his suffering), in contrast to Dooku (who had no reason to hold back against Yoda).
P. 164

"Cargo ships loaded with charge were set on collision courses with fortress-vessels, their crews abandoning shops to fates that were uncertain, at best."
Naval Tactics: The Rebel fleet uses "fireship" tactics- success is not stated. The presence of the Rebel transports from TESB in the fleet in the film are thus explained. These transports must've been prepped when the fleet was assembled, indicating the alliance possibly expected to use these against any defending ships.
The success of such tactics would be limited in most cases, unless ships were damaged or disabled first (the Exceutor's manvuerability problems, or the disabled communications ships.) Maybe this further explains Ackbar's logic in wanting to "concentrate on power generators" - disabling the ships would allow the ram ships to hit them without the Imperials either moving out of the way, or shooting them down.
P. 164-165

"Lando, Wedge, Blue Leader, and Green Wing went in to take out one of the larger Destroyers- the Empire's main communications ship. It had already been disabled by direct cannonade from the Rebel cruiser it had subsequently destroyed; but its damages were reparable- so the Rebels had to strike while it was still licking its wounds."

"Lando's squadron went in low- rock-throwing distance- this prevented the Destroyer from using its bigger guns. It also made the fighters invisible until they were directly visualized"
Naval Tactics: fighters were able to exploit the weakness of this Communications Ship only because a Rebel Star Cruiser had done the hard work and paid the price.

Naval Weapons: Common sense- by hugging the hull of captial ships, fighters reduce the exposure to weaponry and confound sensors that would otherwise spot them.

Naval Weapons: The communications ship is probably larger than ISDs.
The term "Rebel Cruiser" or "Star Cruiser" is not clear in the novelizations and such, given that vessels as small as a Nebulon-B firgate were mentioned to be "Rebel Cruisers" as well as the much larger Home One.
P. 171

"Suddenly course white static blanketed all the viewscreens.

"My scope's gone!" yelled Wedge.

"Cut speed", cautioned Lando. "Some kind of power dicharge causing interference."
"Switch to visual scanning".
Sensors: a power discharge of some sort interferes with the fighter sensors. It may have been dedicated or ad hoc jamming, related to Jerjerrod's later attempts to slow the fighters progress.
Given the known outputs of SW powerplant technology, it would not be surprising that sensors at close ranges might be jammed by all the energy being absorbed (Think about a Star Destroyer, with its stellar-scale power outputs... how much waste energy would it be radiating?)
P. 172 "For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Addded to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Ccruisers- smelling fear in the enemy- merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected- this was simply where it led.

Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear
."
The Force: it is explicitly stated that it was the death of the Emperor that caused the general collapse of an effective Imperial defense near the end of the battle- from the disorganized response to the Rebel fighter attack on the Death Star, the sequence of events that led to the loss of the Executor, to the naval defeat in general, Imperial efficiency was drastically reduced. The Emperor was possibly practicing Battle Meditation.
Hm. Good work. I never noticeed this before.
P. 177 "The fighters in the superstructure are eluding our defense system, Commander. Shouldn't we-"

"Flood sectors 304 and 138. That should slow them up."
Sensors: The interference mentioned earlier probably had something to do with the Death Star superstructure internal defense system.
My question is why the Death STar has internal defenses capable of attacking starfighters that are en route to the Reactor core. As for what they are "flooding" it with, your guess is as good as mine. I always wondered maybe if Jejerrod at this point was just out of his mind and was giving nonsensical orders.
P. 178

"It's too big, Gold Leader," yelled Wedge. "My proton torpedoes won't even dent that."

"Go for the power regulator on the north tower." Lando directed. "I'll take the main reactor. We're carrying concussion missiles- they should penetrate."
Naval Weapons: concussion missiles have greater penetration than proton torpedoes.
Or the Falcon had bigger missiles (which it does) which were more powerful than what Wedge had available to him, and thus was better able to destroy the reactor. (of course, some sources have implied concussion missiles are better at destroying hevily armored targets compared to proton torpedoes, and some sources suggest proton torpedoes might be more effective against shielded targets...)

Posted: 2004-07-17 10:28pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
The statement that both Endor and DSII was protected and enclosed by the shield is contradicted and overridden by the film itself, which shows that only DSII is enclosed and protected, although there is a very small radius around the generator tower that is enclosed by the shield. But that's it. The shear majority of the moon was naked to damage.

Posted: 2004-07-17 10:45pm
by CaptainChewbacca
I don't think the "flood sectors" was a planned defense mechanism. Remember, they're in the engine core, so chances are you could route plasma/radiation/techno-crap through a given engine sector.

Posted: 2004-07-17 10:58pm
by Stofsk
Vympel wrote:Thoughts, comments? What do you think?
This part here got my attention:
The Force: it is explicitly stated that it was the death of the Emperor that caused the general collapse of an effective Imperial defense near the end of the battle- from the disorganized response to the Rebel fighter attack on the Death Star, the sequence of events that led to the loss of the Executor, to the naval defeat in general, Imperial efficiency was drastically reduced. The Emperor was possibly practicing Battle Meditation.
I have no problems with your conclusion, just somethings I wanted to point out.

We were told that Bastila Shan is gifted with Battle Meditation - I'm not sure what that means, perhaps it means it's more of an intuitive ability or perhaps it can be trained but is hard to master (and a padawan like Bastila simply had a knack for it). Either way, I have no problems accepting Palpatine knowing how to use Battle Meditation or some sort of Sith equivalent.

However, Bastila seemed to need isolation to practice it, while Palpatine had a duel going on in close proximity to him. So either he was doing low-level BM during the Skywalker family drama (which means the Imps had partial autonomy or whatever, which explains the post-DS blast couteroffensive, which still failed but speaks highly of the Imperial discipline) or the Emperor is REALLY good at multitasking (which isn't hard to believe either, and is still corroborated with Zahn's passage in HttE).

All in all my point is rather irrelevant. :oops: I just think those two implications are worth exploring. Anyway kudos Vympel.

Posted: 2004-07-17 11:22pm
by Connor MacLeod
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The statement that both Endor and DSII was protected and enclosed by the shield is contradicted and overridden by the film itself, which shows that only DSII is enclosed and protected, although there is a very small radius around the generator tower that is enclosed by the shield. But that's it. The shear majority of the moon was naked to damage.
So I guess then by your logic that also means Endor had no atmosphere and there really wasn't an Imperial starfleet in orbit around the planet, right? :roll:

Posted: 2004-07-17 11:32pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
Of course not, don't be stupid. What I mean is that the shield is shown to be projected ONLY from a small radius around the planet-bound generator and ONLY surrounding Death Star. It in no way shows the shield to surround or envelop Endor whatsoever, other than the tiny radius around the generator. If the shield additionally enveloped Endor, then it would have been shown to do so. But it didn't, so I conclude that it didn't and that Endor was almost entirely unprotected.

It's that simple.

Posted: 2004-07-17 11:41pm
by Aaron
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Of course not, don't be stupid. What I mean is that the shield is shown to be projected ONLY from a small radius around the planet-bound generator and ONLY surrounding Death Star. It in no way shows the shield to surround or envelop Endor whatsoever, other than the tiny radius around the generator. If the shield additionally enveloped Endor, then it would have been shown to do so. But it didn't, so I conclude that it didn't and that Endor was almost entirely unprotected.

It's that simple.
So then the Rebels really didn't need to send a Commando team down to the moon. They could have just bombarded the planets surface around the generator and turned the ground to slag, thereby taking out the generator.

Posted: 2004-07-17 11:55pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
Then they wouldn't have been engaging the Imperial fleet, and would have left themselves exposed to attack to that fleet while bombbarding the planet.

Additionally, the shield surrounded the generator to quite a far distance (although compared to the rest of the planet, it was rather insignificant).

I see no reason to support what I see as such a silly notion that anything more than a fractional portion of the planet was under shielded protection.

Posted: 2004-07-18 12:34am
by Connor MacLeod
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Of course not, don't be stupid. What I mean is that the shield is shown to be projected ONLY from a small radius around the planet-bound generator and ONLY surrounding Death Star. It in no way shows the shield to surround or envelop Endor whatsoever, other than the tiny radius around the generator. If the shield additionally enveloped Endor, then it would have been shown to do so. But it didn't, so I conclude that it didn't and that Endor was almost entirely unprotected.

It's that simple.
False Dilemma. Did it ever penetrate your skull that shields can be redirected to do such things? Shield geometry CAN be altered, you know (A Star Destroyer's shields have been extended to shield another vessel, for one. THere's also the remote shielding projection technology from Vector Prime).

The fact they didn't show it in the briefing does not mean the shield was totally absent, any more than the absence of the Imperial fleet, the Rebel fleet, or Endor's atmosphere. They only showed the shielding (or the segment of shielding) that was angled to cover the Death Star

Posted: 2004-07-18 12:34am
by Vympel
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Then they wouldn't have been engaging the Imperial fleet, and would have left themselves exposed to attack to that fleet while bombbarding the planet.
They didn't think any of the Imperial fleet would be there. At best, a light defense was presupposed.
Additionally, the shield surrounded the generator to quite a far distance (although compared to the rest of the planet, it was rather insignificant).

I see no reason to support what I see as such a silly notion that anything more than a fractional portion of the planet was under shielded protection.
Then why would they need to ask for the shield to be dropped to land?

Posted: 2004-07-18 12:49am
by Utsanomiko
Vympel wrote:Then why would they need to ask for the shield to be dropped to land?
Probably to be able to land within the small region surrounding the generator.

Posted: 2004-07-18 02:56am
by Vympel
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Unjustified Assumption. Alderaan was a participating combatant in the Clone Wars. The Star Wars galactic civilization has achieved technological plateau. No reason to assume they were building weapons after the end of the Clone Wars, or before Alderaan was already destroyed.
Fair point. However- we know that Alderaan had defenses as strong as any other planet in the Empire from the ANH novelization. This is just another reason to doubt the "we have no weapons" line.
Nothing we didn't already know. Bail Organa was one of its founding members and Winter an infamous Rebel agent that even had Mara Jade on her tail.
Yeah I know, there's lots in other material that establishes this stuff, it's just nice for it to be absolute canon. Also "many leaders" encompasses more than just Bail.
Vympel wrote:
Some of Saxton's cataloged-but-undesignated walkers?
Perhaps- should go over and see his walker page to take a look.
Bleedthrough-fire can still cause physical damage before outright shield failure.
Yes, the "splinter effect" on the Tantive IV?
This was something I found perversely minimalistic and hard to swlalow, since it implies nearly ALL of the Rebels' naval strength was deployed at Endor. Personally, I find it hard to believe that, given the scale of the Galaxy, a few dozen ships could represent a critical/major investment of resourcese for the Rebels. Especially since within months or years the Rebels are implied to have started taking territory from the Empire (which suggests they should have had rather substantial naval strength built up)

To be fair, the radio drama does suggest that they lost at least one Shipyard (the Bajic shipyards) due to Imperial assault just prior (which was detailed in Shadows of the Empire), but that implies they only lost 100 ships. Still, its kind of odd that smaller rebellions in the EU (the Yevetha, the Corellian trilogy "revolt", etc.) are implied to have
Implied to have? Please continue! :)

I think it's important to remember that it was as much an Imperial feeding frenzy among their own with the collapse of central authority as any Rebel military victory- not to mention the possibilities of defections and oppressed worlds throwing in their lot (and industry/ ships) with the Alliance.
I also believe the novelization suggested that not long after the Empire startetd emergijng from around Endor, they and the Rebel warships started trading long range fire.
Yes- the forward ships of the Rebel fleet made "contact" with the Imperials (see one of the other quotes) way before Lando told Ackbar to engage at "point blank range"- compare page numbers- this order was just after the demise of the Liberty.

I pretty much agree with everything everyone's said, if I haven't mentioned it specifically.

Posted: 2004-07-18 04:13am
by vakundok
About Endor being shielded:
1. The team needed to get through the shield.
2. They landed many miles from the bunker (chapter five in the novelisation) (approximately half a day on foot).
3. If I remember well, no side channels were shown, not even the one that green wing used to get back to the cruisers, despite the channels had a much higher importance to the success than the shield around Endor.

About the flooding:
I think it was a nonsensical order. Quote how the subordinate reacted to the order, and the only thing that Jerjerrod cared about that time was the destruction of Endor.

Posted: 2004-07-18 06:12am
by Vympel
This made little sense to the aide, who had cause to wonder at the commander's grasp of the situation.

"But sir ..."

"What is the rotation factor to firing range on the Endor Moon?"

Posted: 2004-07-18 07:44am
by Lord Revan
Stofsk wrote:We were told that Bastila Shan is gifted with Battle Meditation - I'm not sure what that means, perhaps it means it's more of an intuitive ability or perhaps it can be trained but is hard to master (and a padawan like Bastila simply had a knack for it). Either way, I have no problems accepting Palpatine knowing how to use Battle Meditation or some sort of Sith equivalent.

However, Bastila seemed to need isolation to practice it, while Palpatine had a duel going on in close proximity to him. So either he was doing low-level BM during the Skywalker family drama (which means the Imps had partial autonomy or whatever, which explains the post-DS blast couteroffensive, which still failed but speaks highly of the Imperial discipline) or the Emperor is REALLY good at multitasking (which isn't hard to believe either, and is still corroborated with Zahn's passage in HttE).
The Batle Meditation can trained to anybody, but it needs normally a Jedi/Sith master to be used