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I assume we're all here (on the PSW forum anyway) because Episodes IV, V and VI struck a chord with us when we were younger and still mean a lot to us today, but how do you rate what we've seen so far of the new trilogy when compared with those classic films?

I watch and accept Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones because they're connected (however tenuously) to something that was an essential part of my childhood. If they were just stand alone SF/adventure films, I wouldn't give them the time of day. Lucas wrote himself a blank cheque with the original trilogy and now he thinks he can get away with anything. Whatever he's done with the Star Wars universe from ROTJ onwards is just the self-indulgence of a very rich man.

DD

I think we'll have to wait until RoTS to really make a decent judgement.

I watch and accept Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones because they're connected (however tenuously) to something that was an essential part of my childhood. If they were just stand alone SF/adventure films, I wouldn't give them the time of day. Lucas wrote himself a blank cheque with the original trilogy and now he thinks he can get away with anything. Whatever he's done with the Star Wars universe from ROTJ onwards is just the self-indulgence of a very rich man.

Well, that's your opinon, but you should give Lucas more credit than that. Although I'm not one of the lucky original fans (I was born the year after Star Wars premiered) I saw Star Wars on Swedish television in '83 and was hooked. Star Wars has been a part of my childhood as well. I wasn't too fond of TPM from the beginning, but you mustn't forget that it is supposed to the beginning of the saga and explains much of the backstory needed for the entire Saga such as how the Republic works, the history of the Sith etc. I was totally blown away by Attack of the Clones and IMHO it's the best of the Star Wars movies (it's certainly the best written movie in the franchise). Accept it, TPM and AOTC is as much Star Wars as the original trilogy. It's George Lucas story to tell, not yours.

EDIT: Sorry if I was a bit harsh, I did not intend to flame you or anything. I'm just so tired of all the Prequel bashing.

The prequel doesn't recapture the spirit of the original trilogy, as far as most people are concerned. But to say that they're horrible films (as some say) is more of an emotional reaction to failed expectations than a reasonable response to the film.

Even the critics (who have countless reasons to dislike Lucas and often make that all too clear in their reviews by spending much of their time lambasting him personally) gave both films a "Fresh" Tomatometer rating, if only barely (62% for TPM, 64% for AOTC). Not exactly a stellar recommendation, but not commensurate with the spittle-spraying hatred displayed for the films by some people either.

I was totally blown away by Attack of the Clones and IMHO it's the best of the Star Wars movies (it's certainly the best written movie in the franchise)

Are you on drugs? Did you even watch The Empire Strikes Back? I know theres such thing as personal opinion, but jesus....

TPM is utter crap, it deserves all the hate it gets. To be honest I think all the hate that accumulated because of TPM spilled over a bit onto AoTC and affected a lot of people's judgments about it.

Joe wrote:TPM is utter crap, it deserves all the hate it gets. To be honest I think all the hate that accumulated because of TPM spilled over a bit onto AoTC and affected a lot of people's judgments about it.

Meh, the basic story is there, in TPM. Just too much stupid in it, such as Jar Jar and the little kid. The basic story line is a good one though. I don't hate TPM, just consider it last on the 'Which movie I like best list.'

I think Episodes 1 & 2 have also suffered from Lucas trying to cram too much story into each film while still having all of his "cool" stuff. There's some directoral issues in both as well since I think a better director might have had a better chance in getting the actors to sell some some of the more cringe worthy parts.

I certainly think the romance in AOTC works better if the deleted scenes at Padme's house were included, and instead of cutting those for time I think that a lot of the Threepio "humor" on Geonosis should be chopped.

I think the problem is Lucas doesn't have competent people working with him like he did with the OT to rein in his bad ideas. See the TPM documentary to see what I mean. McCallum seems to be kind of a yes-man.

I like both movies and i agree with wong. most of us watch the OT when we were young and now that we are old we won't ever get the magic watching the new ones. Mostly the NT has editing problems... and Jar Jar

Joe wrote:TPM is utter crap, it deserves all the hate it gets. To be honest I think all the hate that accumulated because of TPM spilled over a bit onto AoTC and affected a lot of people's judgments about it.

There are a lot of people who think TPM was actually better than AOTC, and no, you can't dismiss them just by saying they're all on crack, because they're not.

I'll be honest, i've enjoyed every SW movie i've ever seen, to varying degrees of course. The Phantom Menance wasnt as good as A new Hope, for example. But Attack of the Clones was every bit as good--and perhaps better--than Empire Strikes Back the best of the OT in my opinion. I havent seen ROTS--*chortle* they couldnt have given it a better name--yet but if its ;ike the other movies so far i'll enjoy it too. I didnt really have a problem with the 'stupid' parts--like Jar Jar and the comedic elements--i mean for Christ's sake it had to have something humorous, couldve been as devastatingly sad as A.I so be greatful. Anyway, thats just my two cents.

Darth Wong wrote:There are a lot of people who think TPM was actually better than AOTC

So they weren't just myths...

I enjoyed all five, but I do think that TPM and AOTC are bad movies with bad writing and worse acting, and their main selling point is the special effects and appeal to the Star Wars universe. I don't need to compare them to the old trilogy or hold them in a high standard - frankly, compared to any decent movies they fall quite short.

I would dare to say that Armaggeddon or Fifth Element were better, the only reason I like them more is because they're Star Wars.

"Around the survivors a perimeter create" was probably the worst line in the whole trilogy

DocHorror wrote:

I was totally blown away by Attack of the Clones and IMHO it's the best of the Star Wars movies (it's certainly the best written movie in the franchise)

Are you on drugs? Did you even watch The Empire Strikes Back? I know theres such thing as personal opinion, but jesus....

I redirect that question back to you. Did you notice the very fine writing and editing which resulted in the best told movie in my opinion. AOTC isn't flawless of course (which movie is?). TESB is a great Star Wars movie with great acting and great scenes, but the script is underdeveloped and the pacing is a bit off.
BTW, everyone is entitled to a personal opinion. I didn't agree with the original poster and you don't agree with me and that's fine. But, personal attacks isn't the way to debate. Obviously you must learn how to discuss properly.

Darth Wong wrote:The prequel doesn't recapture the spirit of the original trilogy, as far as most people are concerned. But to say that they're horrible films (as some say) is more of an emotional reaction to failed expectations than a reasonable response to the film.

That's right, Mike. But it's important to remember that the people who saw the original trilogy when it came out (often) was children. These people have grown up and I think it's somewhat naive that some people believes that the movies would trigger the very same emotional reaction as the original trilogy did. I can't relate to the original trilogy the same way I did when I was a kid of course, but I'm sure that if I had been a kid I wouldn't sit and try to judge my emotional response compared to the original trilogy.
It's a simple fact, people grow up and change perspective. To me at least, the Prequels are just as good as the Original trilogy (well, AOTC at least).

Mange the Swede wrote:TESB is a great Star Wars movie with great acting and great scenes, but the script is underdeveloped and the pacing is a bit off.

Examples of underdevelopment? Which lines in particular weren't as good as they should be? Where in the film was the pacing off? You have to support your assertions.

BTW, everyone is entitled to a personal opinion.

Agreed, and it helps if you put down what in particular threw you off with ESB and what in particular endeared you to AOTC, because you made a judgement that the latter is better than the former.

I didn't agree with the original poster and you don't agree with me and that's fine.

I think ESB is the best SW film, and AOTC doesn't measure up to it as well as you think it does (indeed, you think it exceeds it).

For example:

• 1. Character:
  
  ESB has a great deal of character growth. We go from Luke - who we should already like anyway because he's the hero of the story - and Han and Leia etc and from the start their relationships are relatively established. There's a romantic triangle, Han and Luke are good friends to the point where Han would recklessly risk his life to save him, but there's still a competitive spirit to their relationship. Leia is still a hard ass.
  
  This changes as the story develops. Luke goes from combat veteran who's 'comfortable' in his position as Rebel Ace Pilot, then he get's shot down ("oh, so he's not the best pilot in the universe..." that's the subtext). He gets onto his x-wing and blasts off to Dagobah to learn to be a Jedi knight. He's reckless, impatient, and so on. Through the entire Jedi training scenes he's taught by Yoda the virtues of patience, control, temperament, balance. And he changes as a result. But when he sees into the future and sees his friends in agony he reverts back to recklessness again. He hops into his fighter, goes to Bespin, and fights Vader. There he gets beaten and humiliated, finally learning what Yoda and Obi-wan were trying to beat into him before. The movie ends with a completely different Luke than he was at the start.
  
  Ditto for Leia and Han. They start off in opposition towards each other, then the 'ice thaws' so to speak, and they begin to relax around each other. Leia, who starts off as a 'walking refrigerator unit' to coin a ST term warms up, and by the end she finds that she loves this scoundrel who's come into her life so abruptly. After he's taken from her, she becomes a fighter. She picks up a rifle and exacts revenge against those who took her love away from her. Han, ironically the 'warrior' of the three, does nothing but retreat in this film. Almost as though he's running from something besides TIEs and ISDs. And at the end we know what he's running from: like in ANH, he's running from his own good nature. He loves Leia but instead of telling her he allows her to tell him, and responds with the immortal line "I know."
  
  Now, consider AOTC: Obi-wan, Anakin, and Padme.
  
  Obi-wan doesn't change. He starts off the film as a Jedi Master. He ends the film as a Jedi Master. We see him engaged in detective work which is an interesting facet to his character, but too much of it shows how inept he or the Jedi Order is (the librarian bitch telling him "if it doesn't exist in the records, it doesn't exist" stunning logic there... and the Yoda scene where he get's the kids to help Obi-wan find his missing planet... this is a character who we're SUPPOSED TO LIKE but he hasn't given us reason to). Then we see him fight Jango Fett. He doesn't exactly lose (he DOES drive Fett off), but he doesn't exactly win either. Alright, we have some sort of development: Obi-wan lost a fight to someone who he should have had no difficulty with.
  
  But what follows from this development? The next time Obi-wan faces Fett the latter has the advantage - this occurs virtually minutes from Obi-wan's defeat. You'd think he would have learnt not to underestimate his opponent. He LOSES this time, his only recourse is to escape and evade. Then he goes down to Geonosis, then get's CAUGHT. Again, this is a guy who's supposed to be a Jedi MASTER. Ironically TPM shows us what a Jedi Master is capable of - Qui-gon Jinn was mere seconds away from ruining the Trade Federation completely (if it weren't for those Droidekas turning up the TF commanders would have been decapitated, literarlly).
  
  Anakin and Padme are no different. Anakin starts the film off as a whiny little brat, and his only development seems to be a whiny, PSYCHOTIC little brat. Padme starts the film off as a dispassionate, professional career politician, and at the end she's... uh, a slightly passionate, professional career politician, who can still fire a blaster. (already established in TPM anyway) Where's the character development? Or to put it in a better way, where's the POSITIVE character development?
  
  Why was it MACE WINDU who had to kill Jango Fett? Given it was Obi-wan's mission and given he faced him twice and lost or stalemated, it's FITTING that Obi-wan behead Jango Fett. Did Sam Jackson get the killing swing just because they needed his shitty character to do something, BESIDES lead a whole bunch of Jedi to their deaths? Again, why did Obi-wan lose the duel at the end? Just so we could see digital Yoda jump and flip around like a monkey on steroids? Even HE failed to defeat Dooku! The AOTC end-duel is easily my least favourite duel in all of SW.
  
  ESB: ***** (5/5 because the development is so dramatic and satisfying)
  
  AOTC: ** (2/5 because of the flaws that could have been corrected, and the damage to established characters)
  
  2. Symbolism
  
  Here I think AOTC and ESB are closely matched.
  
  ESB starts off with the heroes 'frozen'. They're on an ice planet, but symbolically and thematically it means they're growth has stunted. Luke is Rogue Leader, but so what? He's just a commander. He hasn't blown up a Death Star recently, or shot down a TIE. Hell he gets ambushed by a Wampa in the first scene he's in! The symbolism is clear: he's 'frozen' or 'trapped' and needs to break out of the cycle to become the hero. This he does, first by destroying an AT-AT through alternative means (as in, other than piloting), and then by going to Dagobah to train as a Jedi. Once there, everything is far more alive and dynamic - but also sinister. There's noises, snakes/reptiles etc, bat creatures, jungle growth - the place is teeming with life, with possibilities. But there's also danger: the lake has a monster in it, the place has a misty, uncertain 'feel' to it, the cave scene is highly symbolic, and finally the lake 'devours' his one avenue of escape - his x-wing.
  
  Incidentally this idea of 'devouring' is prevalent almost in EVERY SW film.
  
  What of the other characters? Leia and Han are also 'frozen' at the start. Leia is a leader of her cell, but she doesn't command them to victory. Han is desperate to leave the RA and settle past debts, but doesn't or can't (he tries to, but circumstances spring up to prevent him from leaving). After the Battle of Hoth the MF flies through the asteroid film, and we get the memorable chase scene. Here everything's spinning, everything's chaotic and disorientating - this is exactly what the characters are feeling. They hide out to find peace, but hidden dangers force them to move (the asteroid beast, the Avenger).
  
  When they reach Cloud City everything seems 'right' - but again, there's something sinister in the air. The first thing Lando says to Han is basically a "Fuck off" - but this is quickly drowned out by joking and bouting. Lando is a conman, and was of course forced to betray Han, but his FIRST ACT was basically adversarial. Then Threepio goes missing. Then Han gets captured, then tortured. When Luke comes to Bespin the place is virtually deserted; thematically showing how isolated he is from EVERYTHING. He has only one person to rely on: himself. When he fights Vader over the 'bottomless pit' he was given the choice - live out your life as a slave, or die a hero. He chooses the latter (and ironically survives, not because he finds a way to live, or because he's helped by Ben, but because he reaches out and pleads for help, and Leia picks up the phone and comes a-runnin' - who's rescuing who now? Who's the 'damsal in distress'?).
  
  The movie ends with the MF flying out from the cloudy, murky vagueness of Bespin to the crystal clear clarity of deep space, and ends up escaping. The Rebel Fleet hooks up and it's clear that the good guys have suffered a serious defeat, but the final scene we have is the fleet turning to meet the challenge, with that bright nebula thingy a reminder of hope (light defeating darkness, yadda yadda yadda).
  
  How does AOTC compare?
  
  At the start there's an immediate murky, cloudy 'look' as the ship reaches Coruscant and descends to land. This is abruptly shattered when the ship explodes and we're reminded that sinister forces are at work here.
  
  The primary image of the early portions of the film is one of hustle-bustle, constant movement, like being caught in a flood. We see this in the standard Coruscant traffic, we see this with Palpatine's manipulations (what is Padme and Bail going to do? Object to the Chancellor's orders?), we see this with the constant assassination attempts (first the cruiser, then the worms), and we see this with the chase scene and finally we see this in the bar (where things seem to slow down, but even when Zam get's nabbed Fett kills her from range then flies off in escape).
  
  The only other strong example of symbolism I can remember is Anakin's riding off to find his mother: as he leaves it's completely sunny, as he continues riding it grows dark, as he finds the camp it's completely dark. And when he slaughters the entire camp it doesn't get any darker. (this was one of the good parts of AOTC.)
  
  But what about the stupid symbolisms? Like the robot factory? What the hell was the point of that scene? We see Padme and Anakin jump around and avoid getting killed by automated machinery. I don't object to there being an assembly line, but why do they have to have a fight on one?
  
  Obi-wan's chase of Fett brings him to a water world, and this fits well with their first fight: Fett is a 'slippery' opponent and manages to get away. But then we have the asteroid chase which, frankly, Obi-wan should have been nailed - if not by those seizmic charges and repeating blasters then by that missile Jango launched. This gets into character as well: not only is Obi-wan so inept that he underestimates his opponent a SECOND time, but Jango Fett - Bounty Hunter extraordinary - can't kill someone in a pissy little snubfighter, after unleashing devastation upon devastation.
  
  ESB: ***** (5/5 Everything about the symbolism fits with the characterisation of the protagonists, and inspite of the defeatist theme the film ends with a bright though uncertain image)
  
  AOTC: *** (3/5 I give the Coruscant scenes credit, and I liked Kamino and the first fight Obi-wan had with Jango, but I despised the assembly line battle, and I don't feel there's anything which compares to ESB's quality)

Incidentally if you disagree with the above or feel a need to point out what you liked about AOTC then do so, I'd welcome a little discussion.

Ditto for Leia and Han. They start off in opposition towards each other, then the 'ice thaws' so to speak, and they begin to relax around each other. Leia, who starts off as a 'walking refrigerator unit' to coin a ST term warms up, and by the end she finds that she loves this scoundrel who's come into her life so abruptly. After he's taken from her, she becomes a fighter. She picks up a rifle and exacts revenge against those who took her love away from her.

She was already a fighter in ANH- remember the Detention Block scene, the scene at the bridge?

But what follows from this development? The next time Obi-wan faces Fett the latter has the advantage - this occurs virtually minutes from Obi-wan's defeat. You'd think he would have learnt not to underestimate his opponent. He LOSES this time, his only recourse is to escape and evade.

That wasn't a fight; it was Obi Wan trying to capture Jango Fett for questioning. Obi Wan could've easily turned the ship around and actually fired at some point.

Padme starts the film off as a dispassionate, professional career politician, and at the end she's... uh, a slightly passionate, professional career politician, who can still fire a blaster. (already established in TPM anyway) Where's the character development? Or to put it in a better way, where's the POSITIVE character development?

I can't agree-

1. Anakin's slaughter of the Tusken Raiders.
2. Padme does relent to her feelings. Why is it being characterized as "slightly passionate". This is IMO unfair to the character.
3. It was also established in ANH that Leia could fire a blaster, remember?

In essence, I see no significant difference between Leia's development and Padme's development, except in details.

Also, who says Anakin's development should be positive? He's clearly on his way to the Dark Side. Any development is good development.

Why was it MACE WINDU who had to kill Jango Fett? Given it was Obi-wan's mission and given he faced him twice and lost or stalemated, it's FITTING that Obi-wan behead Jango Fett.

Probably because IMO Obi Wan gets *far* too much glory in the PT. I'm sick of it personally. He's done quite enough:

1. He kills Darth Maul
2. He fights Jango Fett twice
3. He fights Dooku
4. We know he fights Anakin
5. We know he fights and defeats someone else in Ep3 (don't want to include the spoiler, but everyone should be able to figure it out).

Did Sam Jackson get the killing swing just because they needed his shitty character to do something, BESIDES lead a whole bunch of Jedi to their deaths?

Yes, pretty much. I don't think his character is shitty, however- he's proving Yoda's point, just like Obi Wan did- even the older, more experienced Jedi are arrogant and too sure of themselves. He's important to the story (if you've followed Ep3 spoliers).

Again, why did Obi-wan lose the duel at the end? Just so we could see digital Yoda jump and flip around like a monkey on steroids?

Because if he had won Anakin would've had noone to kill in Episode III. That would suck majorly. Seriously, if Obi Wan had won that I would've been really annoyed- see above.

The AOTC end-duel is easily my least favourite duel in all of SW.

It is for me as well, but it really wasn't meant to be say, on TPM, ROTJ or TESB level. It was an ANH type duel. Short, and to the point- the point being neither Anakin or Obi Wan were a match for Darth Tyranus. This will be juxtaposed against events in Episode III, I think.

Even HE failed to defeat Dooku!

Dooku retreated- that's a de facto win for Yoda.

This gets into character as well: not only is Obi-wan so inept that he underestimates his opponent a SECOND time, but Jango Fett - Bounty Hunter extraordinary - can't kill someone in a pissy little snubfighter, after unleashing devastation upon devastation.

His sensors told him he nailed him. That's reasonable.

Vympel wrote:She was already a fighter in ANH- remember the Detention Block scene, the scene at the bridge?

No, she just fired a blaster. In ESB she fired a blaster and SCORED HITS.

That wasn't a fight; it was Obi Wan trying to capture Jango Fett for questioning. Obi Wan could've easily turned the ship around and actually fired at some point.

Of course it was a fight, there was blasters and so on. He still underestimated his opponent.

I can't agree-

1. Anakin's slaughter of the Tusken Raiders.

I already cited that as a good AOTC scene.

2. Padme does relent to her feelings. Why is it being characterized as "slightly passionate". This is IMO unfair to the character.

Conceded.

3. It was also established in ANH that Leia could fire a blaster, remember?

In essence, I see no significant difference between Leia's development and Padme's development, except in details.

Fine, conceded.

Also, who says Anakin's development should be positive? He's clearly on his way to the Dark Side. Any development is good development.

Not when we're told in ANH by Alec Guiness that Anakin was a cunning warrior (bullshit, Anakin jumps in and gets zapped, no subtlety), the best pilot in the universe (neither here nor there, AOTC doesn't show any fighter battles), and a good friend (right, I constantly bicker with my best friend or tell him off or

Probably because IMO Obi Wan gets *far* too much glory in the PT. I'm sick of it personally. He's done quite enough:

1. He kills Darth Maul

As an APPRENTICE.

2. He fights Jango Fett twice

And LOSES, TWICE.

3. He fights Dooku

And LOSES.

4. We know he fights Anakin

When did this occur in AOTC?

5. We know he fights and defeats someone else in Ep3 (don't want to include the spoiler, but everyone should be able to figure it out).

Again we're talking about AOTC, not ROTS.

Yes, pretty much. I don't think his character is shitty, however- he's proving Yoda's point, just like Obi Wan did- even the older, more experienced Jedi are arrogant and too sure of themselves. He's important to the story (if you've followed Ep3 spoliers).

Not really. His last stand of Jedi bullshit in the Arena is the stuff of incompetence, making his character the definition of Shit.

Because if he had won Anakin would've had noone to kill in Episode III. That would suck majorly. Seriously, if Obi Wan had won that I would've been really annoyed- see above.

Which is why Obi-wan should have killed Jango Fett in one final, third fight.

It is for me as well, but it really wasn't meant to be say, on TPM, ROTJ or TESB level. It was an ANH type duel. Short, and to the point- the point being neither Anakin or Obi Wan were a match for Darth Tyranus. This will be juxtaposed against events in Episode III, I think.

This remains to be seen, and one we'll have to wait and see.

Dooku retreated- that's a de facto win for Yoda.

Yeah, but it looked so... stupid.

His sensors told him he nailed him. That's reasonable.

Still, it's like burning down a house to get a single rat. And the rat still escapes.

Stofsk wrote: No, she just fired a blaster. In ESB she fired a blaster and SCORED HITS.

If you watch the scene at the bridge "chasm", you'll see she kills more stormtroopers than Luke, and from respectable distance.

Of course it was a fight, there was blasters and so on. He still underestimated his opponent.

It was a fight for Jango, but Obi Wan obviously had his hands tied behind his back.

Not when we're told in ANH by Alec Guiness that Anakin was a cunning warrior (bullshit, Anakin jumps in and gets zapped, no subtlety), the best pilot in the universe (neither here nor there, AOTC doesn't show any fighter battles), and a good friend (right, I constantly bicker with my best friend or tell him off or

You're leaving out the Clone Wars and Episode III, which you've got to take into account by ANH. Watch his dogfighting in the battle at the Banking Clan planet in the Clone Wars cartoon, his fight against Asajj Ventress, etc. AOTC he was a cocky Padawan, not at full potential at all.

As an APPRENTICE.

Yeah, but that doens't mean it doesn't count.

And LOSES, TWICE.

Once. There was no way he could "win" a fight he simply couldn't participate in. His mission was to capture Jango, not reduce him and his clone 'son' to atoms.

And LOSES.

Yeah.

When did this occur in AOTC?

Its something to take into consideration- Obi-Wan getting so many victories under his belt would be too much. He'd be basically hogging the entire PT.

Again we're talking about AOTC, not ROTS.

See above.

Not really. His last stand of Jedi bullshit in the Arena is the stuff of incompetence, making his character the definition of Shit.

But that's Yoda's point.

Which is why Obi-wan should have killed Jango Fett in one final, third fight.

I'm still looking ahead to ROTS- in particular, Mace Windu so casually killing Jango Fett was pretty much to give him some credibility as a formidable Jedi (even though arrogant and close-minded).

Yeah, but it looked so... stupid.

Yeah, the Yoda-going-apeshit was not my favorite bit of AOTC, I'll admit.

Still, it's like burning down a house to get a single rat. And the rat still escapes.

He should've stuck to his blasters.

Vympel wrote:

Of course it was a fight, there was blasters and so on. He still underestimated his opponent.

It was a fight for Jango, but Obi Wan obviously had his hands tied behind his back.

But he STILL underestimated Jango, right after it was established that Jango was a formidable opponent. I like how Obi-wan drives Jango off in the first fight, and the roles reverse in the second duel - but I honestly think Obi-wan should have been the one to off Jango.

You're leaving out the Clone Wars and Episode III, which you've got to take into account by ANH. Watch his dogfighting in the battle at the Banking Clan planet in the Clone Wars cartoon, his fight against Asajj Ventress, etc. AOTC he was a cocky Padawan, not at full potential at all.

This has more to do with my gripe about TPM than AOTC. If AOTC was Episode 1 and the CW cartoon was episode 2, things would have been a lot better off in my opinion.

As an APPRENTICE.

Yeah, but that doens't mean it doesn't count.

Of course not, that wasn't my point. My point is that as an apprentice Obi-wan defeated a Sith fighter. As a Jedi Master... he can't beat a bounty hunter... and he can't beat another Sith.

And LOSES, TWICE.

Once. There was no way he could "win" a fight he simply couldn't participate in. His mission was to capture Jango, not reduce him and his clone 'son' to atoms.

No, TWICE. It was a fight, it was JANGO'S fight and Obi-wan was reacting to it, but he still lost. Meaning he didn't get any glory from that affair.

When did this occur in AOTC?

Its something to take into consideration- Obi-Wan getting so many victories under his belt would be too much. He'd be basically hogging the entire PT.

He's only had one real victory, and that was slaying Darth Maul.

Not really. His last stand of Jedi bullshit in the Arena is the stuff of incompetence, making his character the definition of Shit.

But that's Yoda's point.

I realise this, but that's why I hate his character. Why can't we get Obi-wan tackle Jango Fett in the arena, with Mace Windu doing his bullshit 'leadership'? Obi-wan's a character who we're supposed to like, Mace is someone we don't give a shit about.

I'm still looking ahead to ROTS- in particular, Mace Windu so casually killing Jango Fett was pretty much to give him some credibility as a formidable Jedi (even though arrogant and close-minded).

I disagree. His 'leadership' irreparably harmed the reputation of the Jedi. Giving him Jango's head as a glory shot was insulting given he had just lead a bunch of Jedi to their deaths.

Anyway I am tired (long day), I stink, and I need to relax. Talk later?

First of all, TPM was crap, utter crap. Even the battles were lame (apart from the lightsabre duel). I was relieved to see they get back on track with AOTC and hopefully they'll keep it up with ROTS. If its as dark as ESB, all (apart from Jar Jar) will be forgiven)

By the way, anyone seen that Simpsons episode where they go watch "galaxy wars" (or something like that?)

Stofsk wrote: But he STILL underestimated Jango, right after it was established that Jango was a formidable opponent. I like how Obi-wan drives Jango off in the first fight, and the roles reverse in the second duel - but I honestly think Obi-wan should have been the one to off Jango.

Ok, I'll agree with this.

This has more to do with my gripe about TPM than AOTC. If AOTC was Episode 1 and the CW cartoon was episode 2, things would have been a lot better off in my opinion.

I heard an idea once that Episode I could've been fine if they had just replaced 9-year old Anakin with 18-year old Anakin and deleted Jar-Jar entirely (which is a given for any TPM improvement story) I don't know where they'd fit him in, but I think it would've served the story much better, in that there really aren't any parallels in experience between Luke and Anakin whatsover. Luke started training ... what, in his late teens early 20s? Whatever he was supposed to be in ANH? Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to give Anakin a meteoric rise to skilled Padawan and Jedi Knight in but a very short period of time, at the same age as Luke, to really *establish* the risks that Yoda speaks of in TESB? I mean, shit, Luke was unbelievably old by Jedi standards when he started training, Anakin was 9 and they already thought him too old.

Of course not, that wasn't my point. My point is that as an apprentice Obi-wan defeated a Sith fighter. As a Jedi Master... he can't beat a bounty hunter... and he can't beat another Sith.

Darth Maul was only an apprentice- Darth Tyranus was not only an obviously much more powerful Sith Lord- he was a supremely skilled and respected Jedi Master, and to add more to Obi Wan's shitty chances, he was the Master of his own master!

The Jango fight does have extenuating circumstances, in that he was supposed to capture him.

No, TWICE. It was a fight, it was JANGO'S fight and Obi-wan was reacting to it, but he still lost. Meaning he didn't get any glory from that affair.

Ok, he didn't get any glory from it, but I can't say it was a battle between them.

He's only had one real victory, and that was slaying Darth Maul.

With two more to come though. I'm taking a long view.

I realise this, but that's why I hate his character. Why can't we get Obi-wan tackle Jango Fett in the arena, with Mace Windu doing his bullshit 'leadership'? Obi-wan's a character who we're supposed to like, Mace is someone we don't give a shit about.

I don't know, I think a lot of people like Mace Motherfucker Windu. It must be the Samuel Jackson effect, really. He understood his limitations to an extent, even so: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." There's also the question of what Windu should've done in that situation rather than what he did do- if he hadn't interfered, Anakin, Obi Wan and Padme would've been killed, without doubt. The problem was that all the Jedi were herded by overwhelming numbers into a firesack.

I disagree. His 'leadership' irreparably harmed the reputation of the Jedi. Giving him Jango's head as a glory shot was insulting given he had just lead a bunch of Jedi to their deaths.

Yes, his leadership did, but again, the Jedi are not soldiers and its a crucial part of the film that (most) Jedi are not what they were in TPM (practically invincible, it seems- no match for Droidekas, yes, but look at the fool who Jango killed in AOTC, for example). You can be a formidable Jedi without being an excellent leader, mind you.

Anyway I am tired (long day), I stink, and I need to relax. Talk later?

Yup!

Stofsk wrote:

Mange the Swede wrote:TESB is a great Star Wars movie with great acting and great scenes, but the script is underdeveloped and the pacing is a bit off.

Examples of underdevelopment? Which lines in particular weren't as good as they should be? Where in the film was the pacing off? You have to support your assertions.

Support my assertions? That is how I feel, it's a subjective stand. Examples of underdeveloped scenes are Luke's Jedi training on Dagobah. That could have been better.

BTW, everyone is entitled to a personal opinion.

Agreed, and it helps if you put down what in particular threw you off with ESB and what in particular endeared you to AOTC, because you made a judgement that the latter is better than the former.

I didn't agree with the original poster and you don't agree with me and that's fine.

I think ESB is the best SW film, and AOTC doesn't measure up to it as well as you think it does (indeed, you think it exceeds it).

That quote of yours: '[...] doesn't measure up to it as well as you think it does' seems to indicate that you feel that my view on the matter is invalid, and only you are correct. Again, it's a subjective matter. How I feel about the movies isn't the way you feel, but don't take for granted that all people does/must agree with you. Yes, ESB is special, but as a movie, I feel that AOTC is better. George Lucas knows what story he wants to tell better this time. I'm sorry if you think that I'm being rude (I've had a bad day ). I will take a look at your list later.

Incidentally if you disagree with the above or feel a need to point out what you liked about AOTC then do so, I'd welcome a little discussion.

Yes, me too. I will post it later today or possibly tomorrow. Perhaps I should do it the same way you did (with a list I mean)?

EDIT: I see that your list already has been challenged by Vympel, but I'll be back later.

Mange the Swede wrote:Support my assertions? That is how I feel, it's a subjective stand. Examples of underdeveloped scenes are Luke's Jedi training on Dagobah. That could have been better.

I think he's trying to get you to backup why you feel that way, not just its my opinion. How and why do you believe that? And yes I agree the only parts I fast forward in the OT is the Dagobah parts.

That being said ESB is the best film just for the fact its one of few movies where you fear the bad guys and the bad guys essentially win. Did you ever fear for anyone's life in the prequels? Yes we know most survive but there's no tension or fear, things just happen with tons of unanswered loopholes that seem like it will need a 6 hours marathon to close up. The only scene I thought that was built up emotion wise is the Yoda/Dooku encounter, can just feel/hear the audience go "oh shit it's going down now". That's why Dooku utter ownage of Anakin and Obi-Wan is important, Sith are powerfull, nevermind a ex Jedi Master/Sith. Without a powerfull enemy/deus ex machina there is no overcoming drama. Seems most of the complaints I'm reading here is "oh he/she should beat him!" there's bigger things to the story. Anakin is more "powerfull" than Obi-Wan yet loses, omg the movie is gonna suck!

The prequels are about Anakin's fall and the good guys losing, yet I think Lucas has failed to give us any reason to care about it or feel a loss if they do. The deleted scenes helps AOTC alot, without them in there, the part where all of a sudden Padme loves him before the arena, was a big RIIIIGHT moment, that basically is the quality of storytelling I get from the PT. Lucas has the vision, but let Kasdan and Kershner put it on the screen. Make the movies 2.5-3 hours instead of worrying about theatre show times.

This for me is the reason why Lucas shouldn't be directing,

"If you can tune into the fantasy life of an 11-year-old girl, you can make a fortune in this business."

I give Lucas credit for giving the finger to Hollywood, but he's turned into his own version of it.