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Ok, let's revisit the feats of Obi Wan Kenobi as we ask the question: Is Obi Wan Kenobi simply the biggest bad ass in Wars or is he just a lucky SOB?

Episode I: He holds his own along Qui Gon Jinn and I can't recall Qui Gon having to rescue him (but then again I try to avoid watching this filth as much as possible) but his moment to shine comes in the final duel when Obi Wan, as a padawan, takes down Darth Maul a fully trained Sith Lord.

Episode II: Not a great showing for the Jedi Master but he does:

A. Force Jango Fett to retreat and later on outsmarts him in the asteroid belt.

B. Holds his own in the arena, out of 200 odd Jedi he is one of the dozen or so survivors, outlasting Jedi Masters and other Knight on top of having spent days tortured or at leats imprisoned, already tired from fighting the beasts in the arena.

C. Takes on Dooku and holds his own for a bit, but Dooku is shown being a match for Yoda. Obi Wan fights Dooku, exhausted from torture and the arena duel and the battle on the plains of Geonosis so he was hardly in top form but made a showing.

Episode III:

We KNOW he defeats Anakin in a duel. Anakin who is presumably in the thrall of teh darkside aand having his powers and abilities increased by its use he's still taken down by Kenobi.

Episode IV:

He has remained hidden from the Emperor and Vader for 18 years. We know from EU sources that Yoda managed to hide by cloaking himself in the dark side nexus on Dagobah, I don't believe Obi Wan had such a benefit on Tattooine. His stealth techniques are further reinforced by tehfact that Vader does not even know he's nearby until he is in the same hangar bay as Obi Wan and even then he is uncertain. Obi Wan proceeds to stroll through some of the highest securoty areas of the DS to shut down the tractor beam and strolls right back out unseen.

He takes on Anakin again and holds him off and seems to be able to do so effortlessly. In fact we don't know how long he could hold Vader off since it was obvious he let himself he killed. "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" indicating that he had access to Jedi techniques that made him superior to Vader.

Episodes V-VI:

He's so bad ass that he refuses to die and instead acts as Luke's mentor and guide.

Does all this evidence point to Obi Wan being the true bad ass of the movies, defeating the sith Lords Mual and Vader and holding his own against Dooku after an extended battle and torture?

OR

Is Obi Wan simply lucky, having defeated Maul through trickery, getting his ass handed to him by Dooku and saved by Anakin's timely intervention and god knows how he defeats Anakin?

In my opinion I have to agree with Obi Wan in ANH: "In my experience there's no such thing as luck."

Thoughts?

You're asking if Alec Guiness was a badass? Are you kidding?

But seriously, I think there were way too many incidents for it all to have been luck.

YT300000 wrote:You're asking if Sir Alec Guiness was a badass? Are you kidding?

But seriously, I think there were way too many incidents for it all to have been luck.

Corrected for correctness.

The end of the battle against Maul seemed to be luck. But the others testify to how badass he is.

Chardok wrote:

YT300000 wrote:You're asking if Sir Alec Guiness was a badass? Are you kidding?

But seriously, I think there were way too many incidents for it all to have been luck.

Corrected for correctness.

Oh common, it's a title, not part of his name. You don't HAVE to say it. Just like you can say Lee Emery, and don't always have to say Lee Fuckin' Emery.

Don't forget how much of a badass teacher he is. I mean take his student for example, (future Vader) he is arrogant, doesn't have any discipline, is prone to mood swings, has a hard time obeying orders and loves to slaughter whole sand people tribes (including their children). Have I missed anything out? In my opinion Obiwan is a failure. He took future Vader under his wing and turned him into a threat to the Jedi. As a teacher he is a total failure, and given how damaging Vader was to the Jedi, we can therefore say Obiwan was a total failure as a Jedi. Jedi protect their own, they are not supposed to raise students to destroy the Jedi like Obiwan did. The way Obiwan allowed future Vader to be cheeky and insubordinate without putting him in his place was just sickening. Obiwan was a real let down.

If we put aside that tiny insignificant part of his record, then yes, yes he was a badass.

YT300000 wrote:Oh common, it's a title, not part of his name. You don't HAVE to say it. Just like you can say Lee Emery, and don't always have to say Lee Fuckin' Emery.

It's R. Lee FUCKING Ermey, you gimp! And anyway, much like Samuel L. (Motherfucking) Jackson has that unofficial, yet badass title, It, unfortunately (And perhaps rightly) wasn't bestowed upon either person by the QUEEN of MOTHERFUKING (Too, unofficial) England. Any title earned by recieving a blow (quiet, monkeys) which may never be returned, is worthy of being a part of a name. Verily I say unto Thee: Sir Alec (to the motherfucking) Guiness. Anything less, would be uncivilized. (Cookie for the reference)

Why wasn't he able to defeat Jango easily?

I would have used the force to rip Jango's jetpack off his back, tear the blasters out of his hands, and hurl him off the landing platform.

Or if I was feeling generous, hurl him into a wall and knock him out, then take him captive.

Or mind trick his son to shoot at Jango instead of Obi-wan.

Or use the force to mind trick Jango into jetpacking into a wall.

Or use the force to crush his spinal cord.

The list goes on...

Anything less, would be uncivilized. (Cookie for the reference)

Embarrsing but I think I know this, Fancy Feast the Cat food comercials, its their slogan

Praxis wrote:Why wasn't he able to defeat Jango easily?

He wanted Jango alive, and none of those you listed are without serious risk of killing Jango.

He wanted Jango alive, and none of those you listed are without serious risk of killing Jango

Yes he did. But surely he could have used his force powers to bring him in? Otherwise whats the difference between a Jedi and a normal man? Maybe Jango was force immune ie he was strong minded, and thats why he was so tough.

Also if you guys can remember, Jango shot and killed a Jedi using only one pistol (in episode 2, in the stadium). This would suggest that Jango has very fast movements. The possibility that Jango could use limited force powers is not that far fetched it seems.

Chardok wrote:

YT300000 wrote:Oh common, it's a title, not part of his name. You don't HAVE to say it. Just like you can say Lee Emery, and don't always have to say Lee Fuckin' Emery.

It's R. Lee FUCKING Ermey, you gimp!

www.imdb.com wrote:R. Lee Ermey
Sometimes Credited As:
Lee Emery
Lee Ermey
R. Lee Ermy

Colonel_Maybourne wrote:

He wanted Jango alive, and none of those you listed are without serious risk of killing Jango

Yes he did. But surely he could have used his force powers to bring him in? Otherwise whats the difference between a Jedi and a normal man? Maybe Jango was force immune ie he was strong minded, and thats why he was so tough.

Obi-Wan did use some force powers, precog for deflecting blaster bolts, avoiding Boba's covering fire. His jumping kick looked force assisted to me as well. Plus he survived being in close proximity to the rocket explosion with little or no injury, indicating some defensive force use.
Strong mindedness only comes into effect while attempting Mind Tricks.
Also not that this was a fight between a jedi and a normal man with lots of gadgets and a someone providing covering fire. A normal man would probably have been killed by Jango at the start fo the fight.

Also if you guys can remember, Jango shot and killed a Jedi using only one pistol (in episode 2, in the stadium). This would suggest that Jango has very fast movements. The possibility that Jango could use limited force powers is not that far fetched it seems.

Said Jedi was probably concentrating on the greater threat of Count Dooku, who was also probably hampering the jedi's abilities. When Jango went one-on-one with a jedi without a distraction, covering fire or a jet pack to escape he got his ass (or rather his head) handed to him.
And the idea of Jango being force sensative is far fetched as the jedi would have sensed it in him and possibly the clones of him as well.

Stravo wrote:Ok, let's revisit the feats of Obi Wan Kenobi as we ask the question: Is Obi Wan Kenobi simply the biggest bad ass in Wars or is he just a lucky SOB?

Episode I: He holds his own along Qui Gon Jinn and I can't recall Qui Gon having to rescue him (but then again I try to avoid watching this filth as much as possible) but his moment to shine comes in the final duel when Obi Wan, as a padawan, takes down Darth Maul a fully trained Sith Lord.

I was under the impression that Maul was roughly equal to Obi in his status as an apprentice. I was perhaps better training in martial skills, being his job was assasinations and subversion rather than peace keeping, but he was still Sidious's apprentice.

The only thing Obi showed at the end, is not better weapons training, but perhaps a bit of cunning and more importently, Mastery of the Force and himself.

Episode II: Not a great showing for the Jedi Master but he does:

A. Force Jango Fett to retreat and later on outsmarts him in the asteroid belt.

Two things that hampered Obi here, 1. He became a master of the defensive lightsaber form and thus offensive action was perhaps more difficult. 2. He wanted him alive which complicates things alot.

B. Holds his own in the arena, out of 200 odd Jedi he is one of the dozen or so survivors, outlasting Jedi Masters and other Knight on top of having spent days tortured or at leats imprisoned, already tired from fighting the beasts in the arena.

Again, I think his choosen style, if you will, benifited him more here than others.

C. Takes on Dooku and holds his own for a bit, but Dooku is shown being a match for Yoda. Obi Wan fights Dooku, exhausted from torture and the arena duel and the battle on the plains of Geonosis so he was hardly in top form but made a showing.

While AotC is a good movie, I really hated the line of Jedi to engage Dooku. That said, he really didn't do well here. He fought for about a minute until he was struck down and only the sacrafice of his padawan saved his ass.

Episode III:

We KNOW he defeats Anakin in a duel. Anakin who is presumably in the thrall of teh darkside aand having his powers and abilities increased by its use he's still taken down by Kenobi.

Anikins saber skills are less than uber, atleast in EpII. Supposedly, Anikin is into the Strong style or Form V (iirc) while Obi did the defensive or Form III. Ankikins rashness and bullheadedness my lead him to the darkside, but I doubt it benifits him well in an actual lightsaber fight.

Episode IV:

He has remained hidden from the Emperor and Vader for 18 years. We know from EU sources that Yoda managed to hide by cloaking himself in the dark side nexus on Dagobah, I don't believe Obi Wan had such a benefit on Tattooine. His stealth techniques are further reinforced by tehfact that Vader does not even know he's nearby until he is in the same hangar bay as Obi Wan and even then he is uncertain. Obi Wan proceeds to stroll through some of the highest securoty areas of the DS to shut down the tractor beam and strolls right back out unseen.

He takes on Anakin again and holds him off and seems to be able to do so effortlessly. In fact we don't know how long he could hold Vader off since it was obvious he let himself he killed. "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" indicating that he had access to Jedi techniques that made him superior to Vader.

Kenobi hides in the one place that he's sure Vader won't ever come back to. Even when Vader does sort of come back, he stays in orbit. Its actually pretty smart.

On the fight, again, Obi has the defensive posture and Vader is all strength and no form. Obi doesn't have to win, just stall. Its the advantage.

Episodes V-VI:

He's so bad ass that he refuses to die and instead acts as Luke's mentor and guide.

Does all this evidence point to Obi Wan being the true bad ass of the movies, defeating the sith Lords Mual and Vader and holding his own against Dooku after an extended battle and torture?

OR

Is Obi Wan simply lucky, having defeated Maul through trickery, getting his ass handed to him by Dooku and saved by Anakin's timely intervention and god knows how he defeats Anakin?

In my opinion I have to agree with Obi Wan in ANH: "In my experience there's no such thing as luck."

Thoughts?

I believe that his continued presence from EpV to Ep VI is more of a sacrifice for him than a show of power. He's giving up something (what ?) so that he can lag behind and give as much guidence and see that he is redeamed at the end. I think Obi Wan needs redemption as much as Anikin does.

Chardok wrote: Anything less, would be uncivilized. (Cookie for the reference)

Old Spice. Now give me my damn cookie.
Or was it Right Gaurd? Damn it.
And to be on topic. Yes, I believe Obi wan was a bad ass.

It takes serious cajones to let someone cut you down with a lightsaber, so you can assist some whiney bitch from beyond the grave,

Seriously, no contest, Old Ben = Major Badass.

For teh Backstabber!!!

For living in the shithole that is Tatooine for all those years and then coming back and sneaking onto the Empires top secret weapon Obi-wan is one tough son of a gun. In addition he duels Darth Vader, ends the fight at his convenience, comes back as a ghost and trains Luke to defeat Vader and then finally meets Anakin on the other side.

Edit: Damn that's badass. If Obi-wan says see you on the other side, I'd take him pretty seriously.

I know RPG sources are frowned upon, but according to my latest acquisition (:twisted: ) the d20 rulebooks puts Ol' Ben at level 15 when he went onto the Death Star, while Vader was level 18. This is important to note, given how well Ben seemed to be doing in that final duel (Vader seemed to be getting puffed out, while Ben always remained cool and collected, and he also 'let' himself die).

He's more of a badass than I first thought.

I think Ben knew he was finished- Vader is a power attacker and Ben was just parrying- he gave up so Luke could see him killed, the crafty old bastard.

Stofsk wrote:I know RPG sources are frowned upon, but according to my latest acquisition (:twisted: ) the d20 rulebooks puts Ol' Ben at level 15 when he went onto the Death Star, while Vader was level 18. This is important to note, given how well Ben seemed to be doing in that final duel (Vader seemed to be getting puffed out, while Ben always remained cool and collected, and he also 'let' himself die).

He's more of a badass than I first thought.

You try to fight with damaged lungs (you are on specially cleaned and probably oxygen-enriched air just to stay alive) and this heavy suit of armor against someone light and you see who would get a little winded first.

Colonel_Maybourne wrote:Don't forget how much of a badass teacher he is. I mean take his student for example, (future Vader) he is arrogant, doesn't have any discipline, is prone to mood swings, has a hard time obeying orders and loves to slaughter whole sand people tribes (including their children). Have I missed anything out? In my opinion Obiwan is a failure. He took future Vader under his wing and turned him into a threat to the Jedi. As a teacher he is a total failure, and given how damaging Vader was to the Jedi, we can therefore say Obiwan was a total failure as a Jedi. Jedi protect their own, they are not supposed to raise students to destroy the Jedi like Obiwan did. The way Obiwan allowed future Vader to be cheeky and insubordinate without putting him in his place was just sickening. Obiwan was a real let down.

If we put aside that tiny insignificant part of his record, then yes, yes he was a badass.

I disagree. He took a boy under his wing that was to old to be trained. And missed his mother.

He was also deprived of much of his precog, due to heavy dark side clouding. He didnt fail as a teacher, he simply had THE sithlord corrupting his student from day one with no way for him to know about it. combine that with the chance death of Ani's mother(the EXACT reason they are taken from their parents early to begin with BtW) and there was a recipe for disaster that even the best Jedi cant counter.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I disagree. He took a boy under his wing that was to old to be trained. And missed his mother.

He was also deprived of much of his precog, due to heavy dark side clouding. He didnt fail as a teacher, he simply had THE sithlord corrupting his student from day one with no way for him to know about it. combine that with the chance death of Ani's mother(the EXACT reason they are taken from their parents early to begin with BtW) and there was a recipe for disaster that even the best Jedi cant counter.

I think that's being too charitable- yes, Darth Sidious was corrupting Anakin probably from the day he made Anakin his Padawan, but really, with a Master/Apprentice relationship of 10 years, how could Obi-Wan not pick up on Chancellor Palpatine's influence over him? Could he not have discouraged that sort of contact between Anakin and a politician, whom Obi Wan thinks are all "not to be trusted", in his own words?

Just what was Obi Wan doing when Anakin went to see Chancellor Palpatine, obviously pretty often? Look at their conversation in Episode II- "your guidance more than my patience"- wtf is Anakin doing getting "guidance" on matters of The Jedi Order from an ostensibly ordinary politician? What could he possibly know about that? Leaving aside the notion that Anakin did not find it strange that Palpatine spoke sooooo knowledgably about matters of the Force "you don't need guidance" and "in time you will learn to ..." and "you will be more powerful than Yoda" (paraphrase), Obi Wan was derelict in his duties as Anakin's master in not discovering this relationship between the Chancellor and his apprentice.

There's also the question of Anakin's quirky homegrown philosophy about Jedi and love to think about, and why Obi-Wan didn't "correct" it or at least try and temper his infatuation with Padme Amidala. Although this is a minor point as you could argue as to whether love is a bad thing for a Jedi till the cows come home.

(Oh btw, it's discussions like this that show me that the prequel trilogy does indeed have real worth and quality in the SW saga, despite all the bashing).

But howwould obi-wan know he is recieving guidance fom palpatine? He simply couldnt. If palpatine gets him assigned to senatorial guard duty, he far outranks Obi Wan, and as such he cant really do anything about it.

I am also sure obi Wan went through the same thing. Had a crush on another padawan at some point. And like any parent(whichis what he pretty much was)he knows that the sort of emotions and rebelliousnes are unavoidable, last a couple years, and then especially with Jedi training, go away.

Palpatine was simply very close, at a very vulnerable time in Anikens life for Obi wan to do jack shit.

Episode I: He holds his own along Qui Gon Jinn and I can't recall Qui Gon having to rescue him (but then again I try to avoid watching this filth as much as possible) but his moment to shine comes in the final duel when Obi Wan, as a padawan, takes down Darth Maul a fully trained Sith Lord.

Maul was obviously focusing on Qui-Gon though. he used insulting techniques (boot to the face) against Obi-Wan and basically brushed him off as an amateur. Qui-Gon had to bail him out a few times during the duel. Considering how sloppy and flashy Obi-Wan was in this fight, its a wonder he survived unhurt. As far as finishing off Maul, that point's already been beaten to death. =)[/quote]