The new Republic and the death penalty

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-08-24 11:54am

I had thought the NR was an "enlightened" political entity, not needing to kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong...

Yet I see references of the Death Star architect Bevel Lemmelisk (sp?) being executed.

Exception made for extreme crimes against sentients?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-08-24 12:14pm

Enola Straight wrote:I had thought the NR was an "enlightened" political entity, not needing to kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong...

Yet I see references of the Death Star architect Bevel Lemmelisk (sp?) being executed.

Exception made for extreme crimes against sentients?

Well Palpatine executed Lemmelisk total of seven times (and cloned him after the execution).

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-08-24 12:50pm

Well, just because the New Republic uses the death penalty for certain types of crimes (such as genocide in this case), it doesn't mean it's evil or 'primitive'.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-08-24 01:05pm

Lemelisk was executed by firing squad, interestingly enough. Perhaps not the most humane way it could've been done, but this was the guy who built weapons that killed trillions.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-08-24 01:17pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Lemelisk was executed by firing squad, interestingly enough. Perhaps not the most humane way it could've been done, but this was the guy who built weapons that killed trillions.

<rant>
Why? Why are engineers punished for successfully designing an engineering feat they were ordered to create? It is a sign of skill. Such people should be valued, just as that von Braun (or whoever it was that was the mastermind behind the V-2 rocket) was brought to America. That's both pragmatic, and correct.

An engineer, IMO, does not need morals involving build-no build decisions. The moral decision rests on the people who would order the building of, the deployment of, and the use of the weapon, as well (to a very small extent) the people firing the weapon. All he has to have are morals involving making the weapon well designed and safe.

Does the moronic NR seriously think that if Bevel Lemelisk simply refused, the Empire would not simply find someone else, say that guy who made the World Devastators? The superlaser really used no new principles ... it is all engineering. The best that might have happened is that the Empire would have to spend a little more, take a little more time, and maybe suffer a couple of failed tests ... but the superlaser is going to come out.

It is also pretty fucking stupid that they were so fucking sympathetic to that Qui Xux. In the old history, Qui Xux was also a major person in the Death Star project, and she built the Sun Crusher, a weapon at least as horrifying. Why was she fawned over and not shot?

And don't tell me because she was coerced. If the Emperor really needed Bevel Lemelisk to build the DS and he refused, I bet he'd have been coerced as well.
</rant>

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-08-24 01:19pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:<rant>

Ok. I was just talking out of my ass really, way to go for sticking up for all the engineers out there.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-24 01:40pm

Qwi was brainwashed and quite unaware of the uses her creations were put to. Bevel knew precisely what he was doing, reveled in it, and most importantly, volunteered to create the Darksaber for the Hutts, knowing full well what use they would put it to. They didn't make him show up and build them a superlaser.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-08-24 06:00pm

Yeah but Bevel was not exactly the most willing participant; Palpatine had him executed half a dozen times for fucking up and kept testing Life Transfer and cloning on him.,

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-24 06:04pm

Palpatine had him executed for screwups, but never for refusing orders, because he never did. And that still leaves the Hutts.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-08-24 06:07pm

Yes, but if someone would kill you repetatively when the enemy blows up a fucking warship that you design and that someone is Emperor Palpatine, Dark Lord of the Sith, I scarcely believe you would dream of refusal.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-08-24 06:08pm

Enola Straight wrote:Yet I see references of the Death Star architect Bevel Lemmelisk (sp?) being executed.

Exception made for extreme crimes against sentients?

Where was this referenced btw? Without knowing the context it would be hard to understand why he was executed. Kazuaki makes a good point that Lemmelisk should not be executed for simply being an engineer, yet Rogue also makes a good point in Lemmelisk didn't exactly say no, and did know what he was building...

It would have been nice if the NR captured him and 'forced' him to 'co-operate'. This would have spoilt the NR's Good Guy image, but frankly I couldn't give a shit. In any case I have to ask what actually happened: if he was executed by the NR, when did this occur and under what circumstances?

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-08-24 07:08pm

Regarding Qui Xux, let's also not forget what Kyp destroyed when he commandered her super weapon:

Imperial academy on Carida, a serious thorn in the Republic's side

A part of Daala's fleet (might've just damaged her ship, with her escaping into a hyperspace at the last second, I can't quite remember)

Other random Imperial crap

The prototype Death Star

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-08-24 07:25pm

The NR didn't execute him, the Empire did.

Does the NR have the death penalty? I have no idea...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-24 07:49pm

Trogdor wrote:Imperial academy on Carida, a serious thorn in the Republic's side

If it was all that problematic, the NR would have just gone in and laid the place to seige. As I recall, they had a few dreadnoughts, maybe a VSD. I mean, that's not exactly a gigantic invincible armada, now is it?

A part of Daala's fleet (might've just damaged her ship, with her escaping into a hyperspace at the last second, I can't quite remember)

He got one ISD that was already stripped down and on a skeleton crew; the Gorgun got away.

Other random Imperial crap

Core warlords who probably would have killed each other anyway; they certainly weren't expending their resources attacking the Republic.

The prototype Death Star

That was after the Sun Crusher had been recovered, and I don't think the prototype had a hyperdrive anyway, but he did save Kessel. Suppose I have to give that one to you.

The NR didn't execute him, the Empire did.

Multiple times, actually, but the NR did execute him for a final time after capturing him from the Darksaber, IIRC.

Does the NR have the death penalty? I have no idea...

Apparently yes, but it seems to only be used in extreme circumstances; Jag Island Detention Center (ref: Black Fleet Crisis trilogy) is full of characters who would have qualified for the Nuremberg Trials had they participated in WW2.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-24 09:14pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Lemelisk was executed by firing squad, interestingly enough. Perhaps not the most humane way it could've been done, but this was the guy who built weapons that killed trillions.

When was this?

In Darksaber they took him into custody and were going to try him. I never recall reading that he was actually executed (though it could be assumed) or how it was done.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-08-25 12:36am

IIRC, wasn't it said that the New Republic was going to execute that woman in the Wraith Squadron books for treason? I seem to remember that (correctly or incorrectly?) as the event which gave me the idea that the NR made treason a capital crime.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2004-08-25 01:20am

Where do you get the idea that the New Republic is "enlightened"? There is much support for the notion that it is idealistic, but not Utopian. The death penalty is almost assuredly used, given the more confederate tendencies of the New Republic Government. For all its failings, the New Republic is not the United Federation.

PUBLIUS

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-08-25 11:20am

I don't remember it saying the NR was going to execute him either, but then the ending to Darksaber was so bad, perhaps I blotted the whole thing out of my mind...

PS: The UFP had the death penalty in Kirk's time, though it was rare.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-08-25 02:53pm

Lord of the Farce wrote:IIRC, wasn't it said that the New Republic was going to execute that woman in the Wraith Squadron books for treason? I seem to remember that (correctly or incorrectly?) as the event which gave me the idea that the NR made treason a capital crime.

Indeed. Flight Officer Lara Notsil was a head case Intelligence Operative for Zsinji. Because Warlord Zsinji wasn't recognosed as a goverment by the NR she faced death for being uncovered. Apparently if she hadda been a mainstream imperial she just woulda been traded back.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-08-25 06:51pm

Somehow, I see the New Republic as a bit touchy on the subject of planetary annhilation. I can see them reserving the death penalty for special cases only, and that making/using planet busters would be one of them.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-08-26 02:32pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Somehow, I see the New Republic as a bit touchy on the subject of planetary annhilation. I can see them reserving the death penalty for special cases only, and that making/using planet busters would be one of them.

See above. Treason is considered a captial offence.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-08-26 04:35pm

Kurgan wrote:I don't remember it saying the NR was going to execute him either, but then the ending to Darksaber was so bad, perhaps I blotted the whole thing out of my mind...

It was said that he was exicuted by the New Republic in the New Essential guide to Characters.

He spent four years incarcerated on Orinackra, with one research furlough to study Lord Hethrir's captured worldcraft. Bevel Lemelisk's last words before facing the firing squad were "At least make sure you do it right this time."

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-08-26 09:40pm

This may not be relevant, but I am somewhat offended by your insinuation that you're not "enlightened" if you support the death penalty.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-26 10:05pm

Joe wrote:This may not be relevant, but I am somewhat offended by your insinuation that you're not "enlightened" if you support the death penalty.

I've been thinking that as well, but didn't want to derail the thread.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-08-26 11:41pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Kurgan wrote:I don't remember it saying the NR was going to execute him either, but then the ending to Darksaber was so bad, perhaps I blotted the whole thing out of my mind...
It was said that he was exicuted by the New Republic in the New Essential guide to Characters.

He spent four years incarcerated on Orinackra, with one research furlough to study Lord Hethrir's captured worldcraft. Bevel Lemelisk's last words before facing the firing squad were "At least make sure you do it right this time."

Whoa, didn't know that. I put the NEGC down after I read first the nonesense about Palpy vs. Sideous entries and then the outright gaffs with regards to the Jedi Knight/Outcast story. Missed that detail, assuming it too isn't a mistake...

So there you go, the NR has the death penalty.

Edit: Just like the Federation... in the time of Kirk at least.

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