Who actually made that prophecy?

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-09-01 06:36pm

Do we know who it was who prophecied about the one who would bring balance to the force? Does it say anywhere?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-01 07:47pm

Jedi Master Sifo Dias *dun dun DUUUUUUNNN!!!*

No, seriously, it's never mentioned in the film. So who knows...

The EU will probably fill this in after Episode III, or perhaps just say (like with the "Journal of the Whills") that it's just been "lost to the mists of time".

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-09-01 08:09pm

The Skywalker, I believe...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-01 08:16pm

The Completely Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia says that the identity of the original prophet is unknown.

Chosen One
this individual is prophecied by ancient Jedi legends whose origins have been lost over the millennia. The basic premise of the prophecy is that a being would be born of the Force, seemingly brought into the world simply by the presence of midi-chlorians. The Chosen One would be born to a mother who was not morally impregnated, a conception enacted by the will of the Force. This being would be incredibly connected to the Force, with a high level of skills even before training. Eventually, the prophecy proclaims that the Chosen One will bring balance to the Force throughout the galaxy. This balance, however, could only be achieved after a period in which the Dark Side of the Force grew strong. (SW1, AOTCN)

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-09-01 08:31pm

It seems silly for the thing to be "lost among the ancient legends" or whatever.

That happens in our history, but that's because most of our history is known only via oral tradition.

In a civilization where computers and electronic databases have existed for thousands upon thousands of years, historical facts shouldn't become "lost in the mists of time".

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-09-02 06:19am

Jean Paul wrote:It seems silly for the thing to be "lost among the ancient legends" or whatever.

That happens in our history, but that's because most of our history is known only via oral tradition.

In a civilization where computers and electronic databases have existed for thousands upon thousands of years, historical facts shouldn't become "lost in the mists of time".

Silly? Remember that Star Wars is a mythological tale, and this kind of explanation fits very well. Besides, the Star Wars galaxy has a recorded history that spans 500.000 years (IIRC, it's mentioned in a novel, but I don't remember which one though), so it wouldn't be strange if the author of the ancient prophecy would be lost through the ages. And, Yoda had scrolls in his hut on Dagobah, so it's possible the Prophecy was recorded on a scroll and not by electronic means. Perhaps the earliest Jedi shunned technology?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-02 10:44am

In reality, we don't really know that Anakin fits the prophecy. After all, a Jedi could have raped his mother and wiped her memory, or something similar. Or she could be lying to hide embarrassment.

Considering that Vader wiped out all the Jedi, THEN wiped out the last sith and left one jedi, I don't think killing everyone qualifies as balance.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-02 10:47am

Jean Paul wrote:It seems silly for the thing to be "lost among the ancient legends" or whatever.

That happens in our history, but that's because most of our history is known only via oral tradition.

In a civilization where computers and electronic databases have existed for thousands upon thousands of years, historical facts shouldn't become "lost in the mists of time".

You don't think, after millenia, it might be a tad hard to find one peice of information in the TRILLIONS of results that'll come up on Google?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-09-02 10:55am

Jean Paul wrote:Do we know who it was who prophecied about the one who would bring balance to the force? Does it say anywhere?

Okay, this is totally unofficial, get it? But according to speculation back in the 80s, when SW was supposed to have 3 trilogies each, each trilogy would be tied together by a single prophecy. For the classical trilogy, it was supposed to have been "The Sons of Suns" prophecy. This actually arose from early scripts of the SW movie, although the prophecy, along with its orgin was actually from the first and third edition.

If one believes the speculation, the entire prophecy was recorded in the Journal of Whillis, and came from the Jedi Bendu period.

While the speculation about the actual meaning of the prophecy, along with whether its hogwash is not clear, the Bendu did exist and was incorporated into the canon through Saxton AOTC ICS, where the numerology symbol on Obiwan fighter was attributed to the symmetry of numbers and mythology of that time period, only to be perverted by Palpatine.(Hmmmm, why does this remind me of a certain German guy)

Also, the actual Sons of Suns prophecy was expanded, and could be heard during the statue falling in the SE, so, the prophecy did exist.

So.... the idea of the prophecy probably arise from Lucas dusting off early editions of the script, same as how he reused Mace Windu. If so, the orgin should probably be similar, although whether its from The Skywalker, or the prophesying of the Bendu will be debatable.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2004-09-02 11:01am

Jean Paul wrote:It seems silly for the thing to be "lost among the ancient legends" or whatever.

That happens in our history, but that's because most of our history is known only via oral tradition.

In a civilization where computers and electronic databases have existed for thousands upon thousands of years, historical facts shouldn't become "lost in the mists of time".

Civilization seems to have collapsed in the republic a number of times. There have been a number of transitional periods where the Republic has been reborn in a slightly different image, during these periods I imagine there must have been great unrest. A central archive, something like a jedi archive, could easily have been wasted.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-02 02:20pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The Completely Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia says that the identity of the original prophet is unknown.
Chosen One
this individual is prophecied by ancient Jedi legends whose origins have been lost over the millennia. The basic premise of the prophecy is that a being would be born of the Force, seemingly brought into the world simply by the presence of midi-chlorians. The Chosen One would be born to a mother who was not morally impregnated, a conception enacted by the will of the Force. This being would be incredibly connected to the Force, with a high level of skills even before training. Eventually, the prophecy proclaims that the Chosen One will bring balance to the Force throughout the galaxy. This balance, however, could only be achieved after a period in which the Dark Side of the Force grew strong. (SW1, AOTCN)

Ha, I knew it!

Can there ever be a prophecy and actually name the guy/gal in sci fi? I guess this way it sounds more mysterious... ; )

"Morally Impregnated"? As opposed to "immorally"? Not sure what they're talking about here...

Edit: But then you did say "completely unofficial" so, heh...

The idea that the records have been lost is probably just a convenient way for the EU writers to ease off of certain "critical" areas until the movies are completed. Then they can always write a story about the discovery of some "lost archive" or "missing holocron" or "hidden datatapes" and reveal what that mystery was. I mean not only is all this history from 1,000 years ago "lost" but we even have huge chunks of information from just 20+ years ago missing, as if the Empire was able to successfully suppress a ton of information from the galaxy at large. Well, that's my theory anyway.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-02 02:32pm

Praxis wrote:In reality, we don't really know that Anakin fits the prophecy. After all, a Jedi could have raped his mother and wiped her memory, or something similar. Or she could be lying to hide embarrassment.

Considering that Vader wiped out all the Jedi, THEN wiped out the last sith and left one jedi, I don't think killing everyone qualifies as balance.

After the Jedi Purge, there were two Sith Lords and two Jedi Masters. Thus, balance. Bringing balance to the Force was a bad thing; the Jedi Council just didn't know that or figure it out.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2004-09-02 02:35pm

It was Jedi Master McGuffin.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-02 02:42pm

I've been toying with the idea of saying that the Sith made this prophesy long ago to allow it to infiltrate the Jedi teachings to allow one of their own to be brought forth from the Jedi ranks, sort of assuring that the right sort, powerful but not wise to train would make it into the Jedi ranks as a sleeper. Palpatine recognized Anakin as just that sort of sleeper agent to be picked in a pinch after losiong Maul and Dooku in the span of 10 year.
I may yet use this explanation in my Twilight War fic.

BTW does this make Palpy the worst Master in Sith history, losing two apprentices in 10 years and being betrayed by his third?

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-09-02 02:44pm

Rogue 9 wrote: After the Jedi Purge, there were two Sith Lords and two Jedi Masters. Thus, balance. Bringing balance to the Force was a bad thing; the Jedi Council just didn't know that or figure it out.

Balance was achieved when Vader died after killing off the Emperor. He was using so much damned power that he actually caused an imbalance. It's part of the prophecy Yoda's supposed to discover in Episode III...

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2004-09-02 02:48pm

Stravo wrote:BTW does this make Palpy the worst Master in Sith history, losing two apprentices in 10 years and being betrayed by his third?

I doubt he cares greatly about his apprentices. They're there to forward his plans as much as anything else. Besides you can't let them last too long or they start getting ideas about taking over.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-02 02:50pm

Mark S wrote:
Stravo wrote:BTW does this make Palpy the worst Master in Sith history, losing two apprentices in 10 years and being betrayed by his third?
I doubt he cares greatly about his apprentices. They're there to forward his plans as much as anything else. Besides you can't let them last too long or they start getting ideas about taking over.

Are there any EU sources on how Palpy got rid of his master or who his master was?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-02 02:55pm

Stravo wrote:
Mark S wrote:
Stravo wrote:BTW does this make Palpy the worst Master in Sith history, losing two apprentices in 10 years and being betrayed by his third?
I doubt he cares greatly about his apprentices. They're there to forward his plans as much as anything else. Besides you can't let them last too long or they start getting ideas about taking over.
Are there any EU sources on how Palpy got rid of his master or who his master was?

How and where Palpatine got his training is one of the great mysteries of Star Wars. AFAIK, nobody knows.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-02 02:56pm

My current pet theory is that "the Force" used the Jedi to flush out the Sith influence (Palpatine), since he was so danged powerful. It seems that he's more powerful than all the Jedi. Lucas himself even corrects Yoda's statement by saying that the Darkside IS stronger in the AOTC DVD commentary.

So going by this, I suspect that the "Will of the Force" was to sacrafice the Jedi in order to remove this incredible threat to the galaxy. The "imbalance" was Palpatine. The fact that Luke would bring back (well, if he "followed his destiny" which was a big "if") his Father in order to destroy the Emperor removes the threat. That Vader himself dies, is yet another sacrafice.

This of course goes against the popular idea (bourne of ESB) that the Force is a kind of "Yin & Yang" deal, where "balance" means that there is an equal number of Sith to an equal number of Jedi. Rather, this theory goes with the idea that the "Dark Side" is an abberation (like the "paraforce" vs. the Force in the early SW scripts), not merely an equal and essential half of a balancing equation.

Otherwise, okay, so Vader achieved balance for 2 seconds after he killed Palpatine, then the Force is imbalanced again because we have Luke and Leia and no darksiders (forgetting all the EU Jedi/Dark Jedi hiding out of course).

So basically 10,000 Jedi (minus one like Yoda who died of natural causes) died to remove one Sith Lord.

The idea being that now Luke is a new Chosen One. He's the most powerful (and only Jedi) that exists, but then his sister is alive and discovering the Force, so a new generation of Jedi can begin through their families. Well, until we found out that the Force isn't necessarily passed on to children and the whole celibacy thing, but maybe they'll find new Jedi like however the Old Republic Jedi did....

Of course in the EU there are hundreds, possibly thousands of people hiding out there with the Dark Side or the Light Side of the Force, some already pretty danged powerful...

Edit: This technically isn't "my" theory, since I'm sure it's been articulated in different words by others before, this is just something that so-far sounds plausible to me.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-09-02 04:28pm

What is the "Son of the Suns" prophecy? And can someone please tell me more about the mythology or prophecies that were planned as part of the three SW trilogies everyone was expecting in the 80s?

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2004-09-02 04:35pm

Well the books now seem to be indicating that there is neither a light nor a dark side, as such. It's all the same thing.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-02 05:43pm

Lord_Woodlouse wrote:Well the books now seem to be indicating that there is neither a light nor a dark side, as such. It's all the same thing.

You sure you're not getting the official material confused with StarCrossed?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-09-02 06:10pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Lord_Woodlouse wrote:Well the books now seem to be indicating that there is neither a light nor a dark side, as such. It's all the same thing.
You sure you're not getting the official material confused with StarCrossed?

NJO, in that the light and the dark are not in the Force, rather in the Force user. Vergerne's little philosaphy.

My take is of an abstract of the civilization. The Republic was old, corrupt, slothful, and crumbling.

Change is usually painful, and on a large scale, really painful. The Chosen One is one of those 'the cure is as bad as the desease' things. While the Republic was broken, it was too big, powerful and entrenched to just wipe away with conventional means.

Along comes Anikin and Palpy (part of the old scheme) and radically, painfully, and trajecially flush the Republic down the drain. Luke comes along and changes the changer, if you will. And takes out the Empire which took out the Republic. Now a new enlightened Republic can begin.

Vader was necessary for the change from the old to the middle, and the seed for the change from the middle to the end. He's the link in both chains while Palpy was just needed for the first part and Luke was only needed for the last part.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-02 06:18pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:What is the "Son of the Suns" prophecy? And can someone please tell me more about the mythology or prophecies that were planned as part of the three SW trilogies everyone was expecting in the 80s?

The Son of the Sun prophecy is basically the same thing as the prophecy of the Chosen One, in that on basic terms, they concern the same individual.

The full SotS prophecy is:

Journal of the Whills 3:12 wrote:"And in time of greatest despair there shall come a savior and he shall be known as THE SON OF THE SUN."

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-02 06:22pm

Isn't it Son of the Suns? And that prophecy concerns Luke Skywalker, as opposed to the Chosen One.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Who actually made that prophecy?

Who actually made that prophecy?

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