Battle of Endor questions

[Adun]

1- Does anybody know how many ships formed the rebel fleet in Sullust?. I remember seeing a couple of Mon Cal cruisers, a Nebulon B-2 frigate, some Corellian corvettes and Medium transports.


2- What the hell happened in Endor?. There was like a dozen ISDs and the Executor waiting for the rebel fleet there, more than enough to deal with them. I read in HTTE that the Emperor somehow enhanced the Imperial fleet performance during the battle, and when he died, nobody in the fleet knew what to do, even if they didn´t know it. Losing the Executor was a terrible blow, but shouldn´t have the ISDs torn the rebels apart?. They are fighting with Corvettes and Medium transports, and the DSII took out a frigate and a Mon Cal.


3- If the death of the Emperor affected the imperials so badly; what would have happened if the Mon Cal that the DSII destroyed was Ackbar´s ship?. Could have that changed the final outcome?.


4- Shouldn´t the shockwave of the exploding DSII have taken the Millenium Falcon and Wedge´s X-wing with it?. How fast can those ships go anyways?.


5- Pellaeon took command of the Chimaera when it´s captain died and ordered the rest of the Imperial fleet to retreat. How many ships did the imperials lose?. How many did the rebels?.


6- In the first scene of TPM there are like six, seven Droid control ships blockeading Naboo. In the space battle there´s only one. Where did the others go?.

[Rogue 9]

Number six has nothing to do with Endor. Nevertheless, I'll answer it. The number of Trade Federation "battleships" in the blockade was a five digit number at least. They had to be completely surrounding the planet in the density shown in the opening scene or it wouldn't really be an effective blockade. So there was a hell of a lot more than six. As for where they went, you don't need a blockade when you control the port. They went back to whatever their normal duties are, I suppose.

[Vympel]

1- Does anybody know how many ships formed the rebel fleet in Sullust?. I remember seeing a couple of Mon Cal cruisers, a Nebulon B-2 frigate, some Corellian corvettes and Medium transports.

The fleet extended "beyond the range of human vision". What we saw on screen was not the total Rebel fleet, as described by the novelization. However, there were multiple 'copies' of three seperate types of Mon Calamari Star Cruisers- I didn't see any Nebulon B-2 Modified Frigates in attendance, only Nebulon Bs. There was additionally an unidentified ship that was revealed on SW Hyperspace when it made its debut, it was simply known as the "BG Ship". Besides that you're largely correct. But there were other types of ships that weren't seen.

2- What the hell happened in Endor?. There was like a dozen ISDs and the Executor waiting for the rebel fleet there, more than enough to deal with them. I read in HTTE that the Emperor somehow enhanced the Imperial fleet performance during the battle, and when he died, nobody in the fleet knew what to do, even if they didn´t know it. Losing the Executor was a terrible blow, but shouldn´t have the ISDs torn the rebels apart?.

It's stated in the canon novelization as well- the Emperor's death caused the collapse of an effective Imperial defense.

They are fighting with Corvettes and Medium transports, and the DSII took out a frigate and a Mon Cal.

And they were fighting Frigates, Star Cruisers and countless other types of ships.

3- If the death of the Emperor affected the imperials so badly; what would have happened if the Mon Cal that the DSII destroyed was Ackbar´s ship?. Could have that changed the final outcome?.

Possibly- at least, the final outcome in the space battle.

4- Shouldn´t the shockwave of the exploding DSII have taken the Millenium Falcon and Wedge´s X-wing with it?. How fast can those ships go anyways?.

11,000m/s, minimum (required to escape gravity of an Earth-like planet).

5- Pellaeon took command of the Chimaera when it´s captain died and ordered the rest of the Imperial fleet to retreat. How many ships did the imperials lose?. How many did the rebels?.

Somone knows this ... not me though.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

what confuses me...is with all that imperial training, you think they wouldn't be totally incompetent just because the emperor dies. Did they forget all that learning?

[Praxis]

what confuses me...is with all that imperial training, you think they wouldn't be totally incompetent just because the emperor dies. Did they forget all that learning?

The Emperor was controlling and coordinating them with the Force. It's not a matter of training. If your performance is being enhanced by the force, and suddenly you're cut off, confusion will ensue.

[Praxis]

6- In the first scene of TPM there are like six, seven Droid control ships blockeading Naboo. In the space battle there´s only one. Where did the others go?.

If I recall it was specifically stated that once Naboo had been occupied, they didn't need the blockade anymore, and only the droid control ship was left behind.

[Alyeska]

1- Does anybody know how many ships formed the rebel fleet in Sullust?. I remember seeing a couple of Mon Cal cruisers, a Nebulon B-2 frigate, some Corellian corvettes and Medium transports.

You never see the whole fleet at the same time. The most we've seen is 6 Mon-Cals forward of the Executor in one screen shot and 7 Nebulon-B frigates in another screen shot. It tells us the Rebel fleet likely had 9-12 Mon-Cal cruisers and another 3 Home-One level Mon-Cals along with 30-40 lesser ships varrying from Nebulon-B frigates, Bulk Cruisers, Corvettes, and Carrack cruisers.

The Empire appeared to have ~30-40 ISDs along with the Executor and a couple of other specialized ships. They had a decisive firepower advantage, but that the Rebels could destroy ISDs isn't a surprise. The orders from the Emporer to hold the Rebel fleet gave them limited options and forced an encircling formation. This allowed the Rebel fleet to close distance and engage ISDs where their weapon arcs are less effective at close range. With the Rebels concentrating on single ships using multiple of their own, its no wonder they were tearing through the Imperial fleet. The DS2 was supposed to make the majority of the kills and the ISDs were there to hold them in.

[nasor]

As I recall, the emperor’s plan was to lure the rebels in with the possibility of destroying the new death star (which they thought would be inactive and unshielded) and then trap them between the fully armed and operational station and the defending fleet in order to totally destroy them. My guess would be that the defending imperial fleet wasn’t decisively more powerful than the rebel fleet, since if it had been clearly superior the rebels would have simply decided that they couldn’t win and retreated as soon as they realized how outnumbered they were. So the imperial fleet was probably small enough that the rebels thought they at least had a chance of defeating it, assuming the death star wasn’t in the picture.

With that in mind, it makes sense that the imperials probably couldn’t win once the death star had been unexpectedly destroyed – especially since the Executor (which probably represented a substantial fraction of their forces) had also been taken out in a freak accident.

[Praxis]

As I recall, the emperor’s plan was to lure the rebels in with the possibility of destroying the new death star (which they thought would be inactive and unshielded) and then trap them between the fully armed and operational station and the defending fleet in order to totally destroy them. My guess would be that the defending imperial fleet wasn’t decisively more powerful than the rebel fleet, since if it had been clearly superior the rebels would have simply decided that they couldn’t win and retreated as soon as they realized how outnumbered they were. So the imperial fleet was probably small enough that the rebels thought they at least had a chance of defeating it, assuming the death star wasn’t in the picture.

I disagree. Ackbar insisted that they had to retreat, which implies that the fleet DID outnumber them. Of course, the Empire couldn't pull a GIGANTIC fleet because the rebels would notice the shifting of ships. But the Imperial fleet WAS bigger than them, since Ackbar insisted they should run but Lando said they would never get another chance like this.

The Death of the Emperor and destruction of the command ship turned the tide of the battle. If the executer hadn't hit the Death Star, it would have made MINCEMEAT of the Rebel fleet. Notice that other than the bridge, the ship hadn't even taken serious damage yet?

With that in mind, it makes sense that the imperials probably couldn’t win once the death star had been unexpectedly destroyed – especially since the Executor (which probably represented a substantial fraction of their forces) had also been taken out in a freak accident.

Agreed. The Executer probably had about as much firepower as half of the rest of the fleet put together.

[Connor MacLeod]

1- Does anybody know how many ships formed the rebel fleet in Sullust?. I remember seeing a couple of Mon Cal cruisers, a Nebulon B-2 frigate, some Corellian corvettes and Medium transports.

In addition to what Vympel noted, there is some implication that there were a "thousand dogfights and cannon bombardments", which ponits to dozens of capital ship battles (there were "hundreds" of fighters involved)

Another quote mentions "Dozens" of Rebel cruisers... which meshes with what is indicated above.

2- What the hell happened in Endor?. There was like a dozen ISDs and the Executor waiting for the rebel fleet there, more than enough to deal with them. I read in HTTE that the Emperor somehow enhanced the Imperial fleet performance during the battle, and when he died, nobody in the fleet knew what to do, even if they didn´t know it. Losing the Executor was a terrible blow, but shouldn´t have the ISDs torn the rebels apart?. They are fighting with Corvettes and Medium transports, and the DSII took out a frigate and a Mon Cal.

Palpatine ordered them not to attack, and to my knowledge never countermanded that order. Up until the DS2 blew up, the Imperials had no reason to believe Palpatine was dead.

3- If the death of the Emperor affected the imperials so badly; what would have happened if the Mon Cal that the DSII destroyed was Ackbar´s ship?. Could have that changed the final outcome?.

No, it wouldn't, since the cruisers were largely a delaying tactic to allow the fighters to hit the main reactor. Even losing Ackbar wouldn't have altered that (Maybe they'd take some greater losses than they did, but the fighters would still have made it to the core.)

4- Shouldn´t the shockwave of the exploding DSII have taken the Millenium Falcon and Wedge´s X-wing with it?. How fast can those ships go anyways?.

That magic "expanding ring?" How do you know its going to be damaging?

As for speed, there is no limit to their speed exceept acceleration, time, fuel levels, and how much space/distance they have. (In other words they are entirely capable of reaching relatavistic speeds)

5- Pellaeon took command of the Chimaera when it´s captain died and ordered the rest of the Imperial fleet to retreat. How many ships did the imperials lose?. How many did the rebels?.

The Rebels (according to Truce at Bakura) lost about 20% of their fleet in the battle. The Empire lost at least 6 Star Destroyers (Mentioned in the Thrawn trilogy, IIRC), the Executor, and the Communications ship (so at least eight ships.) At least two Star destroyers were captured by the Rebels.

6- In the first scene of TPM there are like six, seven Droid control ships blockeading Naboo. In the space battle there´s only one. Where did the others go?.

They left once they had control of the planet. Technically they only needed one ship to control the droid fleet. And odds are there were dozens if not hundreds (or even thousands) blockading the planet given the relative spacing: we only saw a fraction of the blockade.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

No, it wouldn't, since the cruisers were largely a delaying tactic to allow the fighters to hit the main reactor. Even losing Ackbar wouldn't have altered that (Maybe they'd take some greater losses than they did, but the fighters would still have made it to the core.)

Well, IIRC, not that many fighters made it all the way in - only one or two, so a slight change in the mechanics of the fight could indirectly affect it enough that none of the fighters would make it.

Besides, Ackbar is the controlling figure of the Rebel Fleet, a very young, relatively inexperienced fleet. The chance that it is going to devolve into a hopeless rout without him is quite high. As it was, they very nearly broke, once as soon as they saw the shield was up and another when the first Rebel ship got blown up by the DS. If the blast hit their leader instead, there was every chance they were going to break.

Honestly, I never understood Palpatine's targetting order. Yes, I can understand that part about the ships staying defensive and using the DS to inspire utter hopelessness on the Rebels, but wouldn't hitting the flagship rather than a smaller ship be more psychologically damaging?

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, IIRC, not that many fighters made it all the way in - only one or two, so a slight change in the mechanics of the fight could indirectly affect it enough that none of the fighters would make it.

Only Lando and Wedge made it to the reactor.. Lando DID order them to split off to draw away some TIEs.

Besides, Ackbar is the controlling figure of the Rebel Fleet, a very young, relatively inexperienced fleet. The chance that it is going to devolve into a hopeless rout without him is quite high. As it was, they very nearly broke, once as soon as they saw the shield was up and another when the first Rebel ship got blown up by the DS. If the blast hit their leader instead, there was every chance they were going to break.

Except the Rebels couldn't escape, and the Imperials were under explicit orders not to attack. Which means that the Superlaser kills (the cruisers at least) one by one.. which takes what.. half an hour to an hour? Han would have gotten the shield down, the fighters would still be around (Lando's commanding the fighters, remember, not Ackbar. And it was Lando who was largely dictating the tactics to Ackbar. And it was Ackbar who wanted to retreat rather than fight...)

Now, if Lando had been killed early on....

Honestly, I never understood Palpatine's targetting order. Yes, I can understand that part about the ships staying defensive and using the DS to inspire utter hopelessness on the Rebels, but wouldn't hitting the flagship rather than a smaller ship be more psychologically damaging?

The whole Endor Scenario was one big bad idea that could have used far better planning, period.

[Stofsk]

Honestly, I never understood Palpatine's targetting order. Yes, I can understand that part about the ships staying defensive and using the DS to inspire utter hopelessness on the Rebels, but wouldn't hitting the flagship rather than a smaller ship be more psychologically damaging?

IIRC the DS2 DOES target a 'Home One' class ship (it was the second MonCal Star Cruiser shot by the DS2 in the film, the first being the Liberty). Maybe the Imps didn't know which MonCal happened to be the Rebel's flagship, and so took a guess in their targeting?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

IIRC the DS2 DOES target a 'Home One' class ship (it was the second MonCal Star Cruiser shot by the DS2 in the film, the first being the Liberty). Maybe the Imps didn't know which MonCal happened to be the Rebel's flagship, and so took a guess in their targeting?

It is not that hard to figure out which ship is the flag - it is the big one that's spitting out all the long signals (commands). The short signals (replies and acknowledgments) mean smaller ships.

[Stofsk]

It is not that hard to figure out which ship is the flag - it is the big one that's spitting out all the long signals (commands). The short signals (replies and acknowledgments) mean smaller ships.

Wasn't there a lot of jamming going on? Perhaps that had some sort of effect - I don't know, I'm just throwing out ideas here.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Wasn't there a lot of jamming going on? Perhaps that had some sort of effect - I don't know, I'm just throwing out ideas here.

Even if it was on general principles, they could have killed at least 2 of the 3 Home Ones. that means better than a 50-50 that the Death Star killed Ackbar.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Except the Rebels couldn't escape, and the Imperials were under explicit orders not to attack. Which means that the Superlaser kills (the cruisers at least) one by one.. which takes what.. half an hour to an hour? Han would have gotten the shield down, the fighters would still be around (Lando's commanding the fighters, remember, not Ackbar. And it was Lando who was largely dictating the tactics to Ackbar. And it was Ackbar who wanted to retreat rather than fight...)

Now, if Lando had been killed early on....

Actually, if Lando was killed, the Rebel Fleet would probably try to retreat, but there were still trusted leaders to take the helm of the remaining starfighters. And the DS cannot target a starfighter using its SL (at least, we think it can't). The Star Cruisers would be slowly decimated, but someone like Wedge would lead the starfighter attack, and it'd be a dice roll due to the different circumstances whether there would have been a leaker, though the Imperials would have been better organized, improving their roll.

While Lando made the suggestion to Ackbar, he's a very new commander to the Alliance, and thus would have little of that special rallying ability of an old hand in times of adversary. He's probably a low-ranked general.

(Non-SoD: In fact, had it not been for the obvious reason as to let a main character get into the action in a significant way, it is pretty unrealistic to let that man, who got a good rep but is untried within the Alliance, to sit as a General on his first go)

So when the Home One blows, seeing how close to the edge the Rebel Fleet is, whoever is the senior Line Admiral remaining will probably order a retreat, and in his panicked status (and trying to gain control over what's left of the fleet to boot) will not be likely to be listening to his untried starfighter commander blubbering about a 'never-tried-before' tactic. In that case, the Fleet will tell the starfighters to act as a rearguard and retreat. Thus the retreat is the same, except the main Rebel Fleet is in more disarray and even less likely to be able to counterattack.

A Fleet in space cannot literally stop a escape. All they can do is put firepower in front of the escapers' path. If the Imperials will simply not attack with any of their ships, there's actually a chance the Rebels could escape, especially their light units.

The whole Endor Scenario was one big bad idea that could have used far better planning, period.

Nobody disputes this.

[Meest]

Even if it was on general principles, they could have killed at least 2 of the 3 Home Ones. that means better than a 50-50 that the Death Star killed Ackbar.

I think at that point they we're pretty assured victory, they probably we're drinking and having a good time in between superlaser blasts. Have a Moff's young son come in and pick ships to kill etc. They had all the time in the world really.

[Ubiq]

[quote="Kazuaki Shimazaki]
Honestly, I never understood Palpatine's targetting order. Yes, I can understand that part about the ships staying defensive and using the DS to inspire utter hopelessness on the Rebels, but wouldn't hitting the flagship rather than a smaller ship be more psychologically damaging?[/quote]

I'd think that punishing the leadership of the Rebellion by forcing them to ponder their mistakes as the Death Star atomizes their comrades would be a much bigger psychological blow.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'd think that punishing the leadership of the Rebellion by forcing them to ponder their mistakes as the Death Star atomizes their comrades would be a much bigger psychological blow.

To the leadership in the Home One, yes. To rain the blow on the most people, or to any leadership not on the Home One, no.

[Dartzap]

I think ive seen somewhere that the Gallofree Transports were meant to be "Fireships", full of explosives and set on a course to ram a stardestroyer

[vakundok]

Emm, my thoughts:
1. Many.

2. To do some real combat, the imperial commanders should have opposed the direct orders from Palpatine. An unled but superior force fell against a smaller one that used radically new tactics. It happened many times in our history.

3. No. Ackbar decided to remain only because he realised that Calrissian was right, they would not have a second chance. (The new tactics came later.) (Source: novelisation.) Calrissian's presence was much more important. (Not to mention the MF.)

4. Judging from the movies: quite fast. Judging from the novelisations: really fast. Wedge exited the structure at nearly lightspeed, according to the novelisation.

5. The Executor plus six other destroyers. (Likely it includes the two captured ones.) The rebell losses are unknown, according to the first sii-ruvi (or what) book, they lost many calamari cruisers. We saw two, the novelisation mentions two other (while the class is unclear) ...

6. About Naboo: there were "hundreds" of TF battleships originally. (Source: script.) It makes sanse to concentrate the blockading forces above the space ports and the main population centres and/or around the flagship. Which space battle do you mean? The escaping? They were likely heading toward a "weaker" spot in the blockade. The fighter battle? Only one ship remained from the blockade, since the planet was (nearly) under total control of the TF.

The novelisation describes the use of fireships, and it is a possible explanation for the presence of Gallofree transports in the battle.

Palpatine did not give any targeting order (except Endor). It was left to Jerjerrod.

[Praxis]

Palpatine ordered them not to attack, and to my knowledge never countermanded that order. Up until the DS2 blew up, the Imperials had no reason to believe Palpatine was dead.

Did you forget? The Rebels attacked THEM. They moved right into the thick of the Imperial fleet.

[Ghost Rider]

Palpatine ordered them not to attack, and to my knowledge never countermanded that order. Up until the DS2 blew up, the Imperials had no reason to believe Palpatine was dead.

Did you forget? The Rebels attacked THEM. They moved right into the thick of the Imperial fleet.

But how does that countermanded his point?

Seriously the reasons the Rebels held up that good is because the Imperials were ordered not to attack, so they went on a light defensive.

[Super-Gagme]

Palpatine ordered them not to attack, and to my knowledge never countermanded that order. Up until the DS2 blew up, the Imperials had no reason to believe Palpatine was dead.

Did you forget? The Rebels attacked THEM. They moved right into the thick of the Imperial fleet.

But how does that countermanded his point?

Seriously the reasons the Rebels held up that good is because the Imperials were ordered not to attack, so they went on a light defensive.

Actually they were ordered not to let them escape. Different than not let them attack. People keep trying to escuse away the craptasticness of the Empire or Georgies story :p