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OK, to all of you bitching about Vader's treatment in Starcrossed *cough IP, Crown*cough and his sparring with Thrawn. Straight from Lucas' mouth in ANH commentary. Vader is a pathetic version of his former self. He is an equal among the highest of the Emperor's underlings so he gets pushed around by beaurcrats. He is not this king of the universe that some fans think he is.

There. GL and I are of a mind on this.

I thought that was sort of an implied given.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I thought that was sort of an implied given.

Not to some fanboy and push come to shove the EU as well.


Any way, yeah Vader wasn't really ever more than the Emperor's big bad bogeyman. He actually seems to have a fair amount of power but if you watch him and Tarkin you can see that he's not impossibly far above the head. A point reinforced with Prince Xizor.

Vader was powerful, but not anywhere near unassailable.

I always got the impression that Palpatine wanted Vader to know that he wasn't special, which I always thought was a great contrast to Anakin's (in Ep. II) whining about how he's going to be the greatest ever... and he winds up as a glorified thug/vacuum cleaner hybrid.

SPOOFE wrote:I always got the impression that Palpatine wanted Vader to know that he wasn't special, which I always thought was a great contrast to Anakin's (in Ep. II) whining about how he's going to be the greatest ever... and he winds up as a glorified thug/vacuum cleaner hybrid.

That was GL's point. That VAder thought he was going to be some uber Jedi but in the end was this pathetic crippled old man who had to scrap with the Emperor's underlings for power. I would think that sort of relaitonship is precisely what a Sith lord would encourage.

Perchance, Stravo, what's Lucas' exact words concerning the subject?

Just curious is all.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Perchance, Stravo, what's Lucas' exact words concerning the subject?

Just curious is all.

I'm currently watching ESB commentray right now, but he said something along the lines of this: "The movies are essentially Vader's story and at this point in the story he is a pathetic creature. He thought he would be powerful but now he is merely an equal among the Emperor's greatest minions (Tarkin)"

I would think that sort of relaitonship is precisely what a Sith lord would encourage.

Right... Vader is so busy vying for power with all the other underlings that he can't possibly be able to muster the leeway necessary to overthrow the Emperor himself.

Yeah, thematically he is a broken man, naturally. This does not translate literally do bureaucrats and politicos being Vader's equals. Why would even Palpatine see such swine as in the same race as Force sensitives?

Anyhow, after A New Hope he was made the Supreme Commander of the Imperial armed forces, y'know, hence the Executor and the massive fleets at his command instead of the local Moffs, etc.

Vader explicitly outranks Grand Admiral Thrawn in the operational chain-of-command.

I mean, even in A New Hope when he occupied no official post, he was the instrument of Palpatine's will, firstly and foremostly. He was there to control the bureaucrats.

Star Wars clearly depicts the dichotomy between the Lords of the Sith and the Jedi Knights. The Lords of the Sith have subverted and siezed control of the Republic and restructured it to their purposes. The PT has solidly portrayed the Sith, both Master and Apprentice, as powerful tools and manipulators of galactic power. Naturally in the Empire Vader's subtelty is gone, but he is still the instrument of shaping the galaxy toward the Sith's end: overseeing the development of the Empire's dread weapons, pursuing the last hope of the Jedi, and confronting him. Vader is not a lackey. He is Palpatine's right hand, and according to the ROTJ novelisation, by the end his power began to rival even Palpatine's.

If Vader was really some goon, why all the clear references to Palpatine's apprentice being his specific right-hand? This is obviously implied by the Original Trilogy.

And furthermore, if Anakin's power was not put to use in curbing the machine of the Empire and bending it to Palpatine's will, why go to the trouble of converting him?

And to boot, you discount the EU on many things Stravo. Since you discount the fact that Palpatine is immortal, than Lord Vader was the heir apparent to the throne of the Galactic Emperor by implication; the throne of the Galactic Emperor is a tool for the Dark Lord of the Sith. With Palpatine's death Vader would assume that mantle. He is even less of a lackey in your purist mindset than in the greater EU, where is in fact the permanent official sidekick, since Palpy was never going to die.

EDIT: The use of "at this point" is quite telling. With the death of the most powerful of the Grand Moff Governors, Tarkin, and the disgrace of his technocrats with the spectacular failure of the Death Star, the immediately following ascendance of Lord Vader to the highest observed positions of power over the military. In ROTJ he transcends Tarkin's (sort-of) successor, Jerjerrod. In the early drafts he even Force-grips the Moff for his insolence and obstruction. Simply harping on a single line pertaining to Vader as of A New Hope when Lucas' own works even when reintrepreted show a drastic rise in power over the next two films is quite the example of "remembering the hits and forgetting the misses" if you will.

EDIT 2.0: Vader's characterization doesn't bother me so much as the impossibly perfect and Empire's/Palpatine's darling characterization of Grand Admiral Thrawn by comparison. Especially when the film canon (to say nothing of the rest) would not argue that at this point Vader transcends such officers, and with no one ever acting as an intermediary over Vader for Palpatine, it is rather jarring compared to the characters-as-we-know-them.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah, thematically he is a broken man, naturally. This does not translate literally do bureaucrats and politicos being Vader's equals. Why would even Palpatine see such swine as in the same race as Force sensitives?

So...GL's vision of Vader is over rided by the EU?? The guy said he is being pushed around by Beauracrats, how the mighty have fallen. He is an equal among the Emperor's lackeys. These are his words. It works if you look at the way it would work for Palpatine. Vader is constantly fighting for position and power and has no time to plot against the Emperor.

And if he succeeded then does that not also fit into the whole Sith survival of the fittest and might makes right kind of philosphy? In other words that set up with Vader's position as nebulous (GL also says that Vader has no clear rank in the power structure other than Emperor's right hand man.) challenges him to better himself and overcome the obstacles his master has placed for him.

I just don't like other authors telling us who Vader was when the guy who created him just told us what he intended to be.

Stravo wrote:So...GL's vision of Vader is over rided by the EU?? The guy said he is being pushed around by Beauracrats, how the mighty have fallen.

Being "one among equals" is hardly being "pushed around."

And the EU describes Vader as the "Imperial emissiary" with the job of making sure Tarkin remained loyal, and no real rank or position.

Stravo wrote:He is an equal among the Emperor's lackeys.

Which means he's their punching bag?

Stravo wrote:These are his words. It works if you look at the way it would work for Palpatine. Vader is constantly fighting for position and power and has no time to plot against the Emperor.

If he was that much of a liability and to be trusted with no latitude to exercise his awesome power, why the hell would you recruit the Chosen One in the first place?

Stravo wrote:And if he succeeded then does that not also fit into the whole Sith survival of the fittest and might makes right kind of philosphy? In other words that set up with Vader's position as nebulous (GL also says that Vader has no clear rank in the power structure other than Emperor's right hand man.) challenges him to better himself and overcome the obstacles his master has placed for him.

If he's the right hand man, and the other lackeys aren't, than Vader is implicitly stronger than they are, no?

You originally came in saying this was in refutation of my bitching about your Vader characterization.

Your Vader is post-TESB. So how is this at all relevent if you're admitting he transcended his prior "equals." In fact you're refuting yourself.

Stravo wrote:I just don't like other authors telling us who Vader was when the guy who created him just told us what he intended to be.

What GL said he intended Vader to be is completely irrelevent. Why you ask? Because the thematic analysis of literature occurs quite independently of the author in the cases they are dead; the content is most important.

And in GL's case especially it is irrelevent. Why? Because GL's claims of "original intent" are hardly trustworthy.

Anyhow, the original WEG source materials are hardly incorrect; Vader as the Imperial emissiary on Tarkin's battlestation is hardly contradicted by the GL's remarks. Things have obviously changed by TESB though. (Keep in mind it may have been politically difficult to give the open Sith Lord official authority in the Empire while there was still and Imperial Senate).

I find your lack of faith disturbing, Stravo.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:So...GL's vision of Vader is over rided by the EU?? The guy said he is being pushed around by Beauracrats, how the mighty have fallen.

Being "one among equals" is hardly being "pushed around."

No those were GL's words not mine. He pointed out that poor Vader was essentially being pushed around by beauracrats in the choking Motti scene.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And the EU describes Vader as the "Imperial emissiary" with the job of making sure Tarkin remained loyal, and no real rank or position.

GL describes it as trying to show the tension between the military arm of the Empire and the Mystical arm of the Empire represented by Vader.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:He is an equal among the Emperor's lackeys.

Which means he's their punching bag?

Gee, I never used the term punching bag nor did I say he was weak, I just said he's scrapping with Trakin and the others for dominance.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:These are his words. It works if you look at the way it would work for Palpatine. Vader is constantly fighting for position and power and has no time to plot against the Emperor.

If he was that much of a liability and to be trusted with no latitude to exercise his awesome power, why the hell would you recruit the Chosen One in the first place?

Haven't seen Ep III yet to really know the answer to that question. But we may surmise that Palpatine recruited the Chosen one to steal the last hope of the Jedi away. "You can't balance the Force now can you? He's mine!" And the irony of fate and destiny come into play with a flavor of Greek tragedy.

And who says Vader can't exercise power? He was choking Motti in that scene and released him because he chose to follow Tarkin's order. Its typical of a power structuire where the Emperor has essentially set up an ambiguos chain of command. No one quite knows where they stand.

As an aside since you know this better than I, I heard that in the Radio drama or early drafts of the script, Tarkin was actually receiving some dark side training from the Emperor, perhaps indicating a switch in lackeys?

Illuminatus Primus wrote: If he's the right hand man, and the other lackeys aren't, than Vader is implicitly stronger than they are, no?

You originally came in saying this was in refutation of my bitching about your Vader characterization.

Your Vader is post-TESB. So how is this at all relevent if you're admitting he transcended his prior "equals." In fact you're refuting yourself.

Unless the Emperor has set up another power struggle culture in his new fleet. Essentially telling Thrawn "You are in command of my fleet, you are charged with conquering this new galaxy in my name. You have absolute authority." "Cool." "Oh, by the way I'm sending Vader long, you know...to keep an eye on things." "Oh? Well where does he stand?" "He's an official observer." "This means what?" "You can go now Grand Admiral."

That kind of ambiguity works perfectly for Palpatine because he obviously never thought he was going to lose power. After all, one thing that sped the fall of the Empire is that there was no clear line of succession after he died. One of the things that any dictator learns quickly is that you always keep succession ambiguous so no one can organize a coup.

It's clear that Vader does not lord over Tarkin- however in ESB and ROTJ it is clear that Vader is top dog- tell me, does anyone fuck with him in ESB and ROTJ? No.

I've always held Vader as only marginally more powerful within the Empire than the Moffs, he was number 2 to the Emperor, but he wasn't so far beyond the Moffs that he could give them serious shit. Like in ANH, the one Moff is going on about how awesome cool the Death Star is, and Vader decides to give him a taste of the Force to reinforce his point. Tarkin tells Vader to cut it out and Vader does. It's clear that neither of the Moffs respect him and that Tarkin can tell Vader what to do.

Also, Leia's comment is relevant "Ah, Grand Moff Tarkin. I should of known that it was you holding Vader's leash." Leia was totally non-suprised to see Tarkin being in charge of things and that he was Vader's boss in the operation. That indicates a history.

Finally, it's clear that the Emperor doesn't think he's such hot irreplacable shit. In RotJ, at the end, Palpatine was all ready to sacrifice Vader to get Luke ready for the new Dark Helmet. If Luke killed his dad, BAM, Palpatine gets a new, more powerful underling, and that's all he cares about. He doesn't give two bags of bantha dropping for Vader, he's just a pawn, just like everyone else. From watching RotJ, this appeared to be quite a suprise to him.

I think it's safe to say that Vader is valuable to Palpy because he's a Jedi (turned Sith Lord). That's why he keeps him around until he thinks he can get Luke as his new right hand.

Unless he was just some pawn to get rid of the Jedi now he's just ballast to the Emperor, but I don't buy that.

Why would he give him such an important mission (tracking down the Death Star plans) and then another one (finding Luke) if he was little more than a thug vying for power with Xizor and those weird-ass guys in purple?

Vader is still an UNDERLING (not equal to Palpy) but his position is clearly unique.

Perhaps though Lucas didn't intend for Vader to be quite so powerful in ANH and this simply changed when he made ESB & ROTJ.

Perhaps we could explain it that after Vader proved himself at the Battle of Yavin (he did everything he was supposed to do and above and beyond the call of duty, even when everyone around him was acting like an idiot), he got more power.

Finally, it's clear that the Emperor doesn't think he's such hot irreplacable shit. In RotJ, at the end, Palpatine was all ready to sacrifice Vader to get Luke ready for the new Dark Helmet. If Luke killed his dad, BAM, Palpatine gets a new, more powerful underling, and that's all he cares about. He doesn't give two bags of bantha dropping for Vader, he's just a pawn, just like everyone else. From watching RotJ, this appeared to be quite a suprise to him.

Palpatine didn't want a more powerful underling, he wanted a new underling- Sith Apprentices are not in the game for any other reason than to eventually replace their Masters- as Vader was planning, by taking Luke as his apprentice, in ESB. In ROTJ he appears to have changed his mind, true, but the thoughts are clearly there.

Gil Hamilton wrote:He doesn't give two bags of bantha dropping for Vader, he's just a pawn, just like everyone else.

See also: Maul, Darth; Tyrannis, Darth.

It works both ways, of course- Vader, Tyranus, and probably Maul had he lived didn't give a shit about Sidious, I'm sure- they're using each other.

Vympel wrote:It works both ways, of course- Vader, Tyranus, and probably Maul had he lived didn't give a shit about Sidious, I'm sure- they're using each other.

According to Lucas' commentary in ESB you can never have more than two Sith, because if you have three, the other two will gang up on the master in order to achieve dominance. Its just the nature of these guys. He also adds that at first Vader only sees Luke as a mechanism to help him depose the Emperor which has been his goal since the beginning which leads me to wonder what exactly IS the dynamic between those two? Did Vader join the Emperor with the intention to usurp his power from the beginning? Was it a gradual thing? He also adds that Luke was a disposal commodity for Ben and Yoda because there is another. Pretty sad huh? Luke is nothing more than a mechanism for all the big players.

Personaly I think even Lucas is overidden by the films.

In ANH it does look as if Vader is playing a subservent role to Tarkin. Its not that surprising really. The Death Star is Tarkins baby. Of course Episode II and possibly Episode III may alter this. But its extreemly clear that Vader was ordered to obay Tarkins orders...but be ready to step in if the situation warrented it. Such as when without consulting Tarkin he got the TIE's into space to deal with the fighter threat. I have no dobut Vader would have executed Tarkin if he had truely steped out of line or showed any indication of being disloyal.

BUT appart from those circemstances, he was forced to stand my Tarkin. When the OTHER senior commanders tried to snear at Vadar, he happily started to choke them to death, it was only when Tarkin told him enough that Vadar backed off.

However its clear after Tarkins failure that Vadar was given Authority only second to the Emperors. He had command of the Death Squadron with wide ranging authority. He then went to the Second Death Star and assumed command of the entire system, beating up on Jererrod without mercy.

As far as I can see, the possibilities are:

A. Tarkin was the only person who dared stand up to Vader and he gained de-facto supremecy after Yavin in the underlings war.

B. Tarkin was the only person who DID 'outrank' Vadar and with his death Vadar moved up to become top dog.

C. Vadar did officaly outrank Tarkin but held his temper and took orders from him because either he respected Tarkin or the Emperor wished him to playact in this role. Possibly as a 'hidden' brake on Tarkin in case he got dillusions of grandure.

My guess is C is the most likely. And after Vader proved his loyalty by not killing Tarkin, using the Death Star on Courscant and taking control of the Empire, he officaly was made the personal envoy of the Emperor. As if he was speaking with the Emperors voice.

Have none of you guys read the ANH novelization? Vader humours the others such as Tarkin, but he knows that he is superior to them. The difference is that he knows the Emperor's command of the Force is greater than his own, so he needs to address that before he can hope to seize power. The others like Tarkin think that they will overthrow the Emperor by force of arms, and he sneers at them for their ignorance.

Is he formally equal to Tarkin? Perhaps, but that is of little importance to him. He knows that the Imperial rank structure is irrelevant; the only thing which keeps him from power is the Emperor's control over the Force.

And I don't see how this is contradictory to what GL is saying now. Of course he's a pathetic figure; he wants to be Emperor but he's not. He wanted to be a glorious, revered hero but he's not; he's a feared henchman. He wanted to be loved, and he's an unloved cripple in an iron lung. That's obviously pathetic; it doesn't mean that Vader did not hold a superior position in the Empire or was not the Emperor's right-hand man. Did you see any Moffs or Grand Admirals in the Emperor's throneroom with him in ROTJ?

C. Vadar did officaly outrank Tarkin but held his temper and took orders from him because either he respected Tarkin or the Emperor wished him to playact in this role. Possibly as a 'hidden' brake on Tarkin in case he got dillusions of grandure.

This is precisely it. See the radio drama; Motti suggests using the Death Star to gain "equality" to the Emperor for Tarkin, and Tarkin says that Vader would make that difficult. Motti convinces Tarkin that "Formidable as he is, the Dark Lord of the Sith is not an insurmountable problem. The personnel on this station owe their loyalty to you. Lord Vader, for all his superstitious trickery, can be 'dealt with.'" Vader was present to keep Governor Tarkin and the various generals, admirals, and lords on the station in line, though until Tarkin became rebellious, he was to follow the governor's orders.

I don't think you can measure Vader's power in regard to the empire simply by saying that he is only equal to the top officials. In an absolute dictatatorship like the empire a person's power is directly linked to his access to the dictator. Even if Vader's official title had been Bantha catcher on Tatoine he would have been one of the most powerful persons in the empire simply because his direct access to the boss. Real powerful officials like Tarkin might feel confident enough to dissagree on matters regarding their own area of authority, like the construction and operation of the DS, but everyone else would simply assume that Vader is carrying out the will of Palpatine and bend over accordingly, it's the way of Empires with absolute rulers.

Stravo wrote:No those were GL's words not mine. He pointed out that poor Vader was essentially being pushed around by beauracrats in the choking Motti scene.

That's not what you quoted.

Stravo wrote:GL describes it as trying to show the tension between the military arm of the Empire and the Mystical arm of the Empire represented by Vader.

Again, this somehow supports your concept of the Grand Admiral being a more direct representative of the Emperor how?

This in no way conflicts with WEG's portrayal.

Stravo wrote:Gee, I never used the term punching bag nor did I say he was weak, I just said he's scrapping with Trakin and the others for dominance.

Yes, on Tarkin's battlestation, in Tarkin's territory. Big surprise there. And this has what to do with TESB and ROTJ?

Stravo wrote:Haven't seen Ep III yet to really know the answer to that question. But we may surmise that Palpatine recruited the Chosen one to steal the last hope of the Jedi away. "You can't balance the Force now can you? He's mine!" And the irony of fate and destiny come into play with a flavor of Greek tragedy.

That makes no sense. Why wouldn't you just kill him then? Palpatine used himself as bait in order to come up with an equal replacement for Vader in Luke. He must have some need or he would not do that. Or you're arguing that Palpatine is a complete moron. Your pick.

Stravo wrote:And who says Vader can't exercise power? He was choking Motti in that scene and released him because he chose to follow Tarkin's order. Its typical of a power structuire where the Emperor has essentially set up an ambiguos chain of command. No one quite knows where they stand.

And this has what to do with TESB or ROTJ?

Stravo wrote:As an aside since you know this better than I, I heard that in the Radio drama or early drafts of the script, Tarkin was actually receiving some dark side training from the Emperor, perhaps indicating a switch in lackeys?

The ANH early scripts are far more radically different and more numerous than the scripts of TESB and ROTJ vs the actual film. To say "early ANH script" is a whole lot different than "early ROTJ script."

Keep in mind the early scripts had Vader as simply the proudest of the Sith warriors, and Palpatine's current character invested in this Sith master character, while the actual ruler was more or less a pawn.

Stravo wrote:Unless the Emperor has set up another power struggle culture in his new fleet. Essentially telling Thrawn "You are in command of my fleet, you are charged with conquering this new galaxy in my name. You have absolute authority." "Cool." "Oh, by the way I'm sending Vader long, you know...to keep an eye on things." "Oh? Well where does he stand?" "He's an official observer." "This means what?" "You can go now Grand Admiral."

Ok, right. A similar conflict was set up in A New Hope, invalidated by The Empire Strikes Back, and you suddenly reinvent it (which, because Vader is supreme commander, makes no sense), and GL's therefore behind you? Sorry, doesn't follow.

Since GL already had changed the characterization and the portrayal of Vader by TESB, going back to ANH for validation of similar ideas in your post-TESB story is a tad picky-and-choosy, no?

Stravo wrote:That kind of ambiguity works perfectly for Palpatine because he obviously never thought he was going to lose power.

Well you believe that he was going to die, so of course he was going to lose power eventually.

Stravo wrote:After all, one thing that sped the fall of the Empire is that there was no clear line of succession after he died.

It would have been a tad different if the Dark Lord of the Sith and Supreme Commander of the armed forces survived to ascend his Master's mantle.

Stravo wrote:One of the things that any dictator learns quickly is that you always keep succession ambiguous so no one can organize a coup.

Several Latin American banana republics would care to disagree; its often best to neutralize aspiring, ambitious, and popular young politicos by neutralizing them and having a designated lackey for your replacement.