New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

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New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Okie, I have done fleet calcs for the Empire and New Republic as of the Black Fleet Crisis(which BTW was when the NR had collapsed in worlds and millitary), it seems that the New Republic, has 5 Fleets, the fifth fleet has 500 ships, and there are other fleets have more, and the Imperial Fleet was 5000 times larger during it's height, so from this I have created a low, mid and high-end calc, no republic fleet went over 1000 ships though.

Republic fleets, low-end:
2 fleets containing 600 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 200 ships

Total 1900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 10,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, mid-end:
2 fleets containing 800 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 400 ships

Total 2900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 14,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, high-end:
4 fleets containing 1000 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships

Total 4500 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 22,5 million ships.

Relevant information and sources are:
The 5th fleet has 5 battlegroups with 5 task forces... a task force is twenty one ships, thats 500 ships for the 5th fleet
-Tyrant's Test(Paraphrasing)
Pg. 63: NR Defense force: "It operates five full fleets, each consisting of hundreds of warships, transports and support vessels, divided into battelgroups and task forces."
-Cracken's Threat Dossier
Pg. 64: [About the fifth fleets size] "Some fleets are much larger"
-Cracken's Threat Dossier
Pg. 64: The Defense Force is smaller than its Imperial Predecessor by a factor of about 5,000 ships and is still shrinking.
-Cracken's Threat Dossier
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

The New Republic probably has local Planetary Security Forces that swollow up most of their military just like the Old Republic had those Security Forces. It'd make sense with the severe regionalism we see in the NJO.

The NR's got to have a couple million ships, even with warlordism there would be no way they beat the Empire otherwise.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I checked the Hand of Thrawn (Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future by Zahn) and apparently there are local militaries (a lot of them being siezed by the local gov't and almost going to war is a significant part of the duology's plot), and that evens the score since a huge amount of the Imperial's military was swollowed up by those large sector forces.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The New Republic probably has local Planetary Security Forces that swollow up most of their military just like the Old Republic had those Security Forces. It'd make sense with the severe regionalism we see in the NJO.

The NR's got to have a couple million ships, even with warlordism there would be no way they beat the Empire otherwise.
You forget some important facts, namely the whole Dark Empire storyline and the Thrawn triology.

The New Republic at the time of the "Black Fleet Crisis" is severly crippled, it has only 11.000 member worlds compared to the 600.000 it had in "The Courtship of Princess Leia".

In the Thrawn triology they had 3/4 of the Galaxy under their controll, the millitary was stretched too thin, most of the Imperials where again routed under a single leader, mostly, they took alot of worlds, put alot of strain on the NR millitary.

Then in Dark Empire, Palpatine returns, the civil war is re-ignited and the NR collapses.

Now we're not far after the NR, and they have only 11.000 systems now, they're severly crippled, lots of political elements actually fight the creation of the new Fifth fleet and even 6 years after this they where still only a fraction of what they once where prior to Thrawn and Palpatines return, not many people were willing to trust a goverment that failed once, they essentially turned into a core group that held dominance simply because the others where not coordinated and the Imperials where but a shadow of themselves.


So you see, it all fits together.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I checked the Hand of Thrawn (Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future by Zahn) and apparently there are local militaries (a lot of them being siezed by the local gov't and almost going to war is a significant part of the duology's plot), and that evens the score since a huge amount of the Imperial's military was swollowed up by those large sector forces.
There where local millitas in addition to the few thousand NR ships there where yes, but still, at the time of the Black Fleet Crisis the NR was in shit shape, the Imperials were reeling and degenerating into "warlordism" again.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

This also explains how the Vong, which had what, 100k or so ships at most were able to invade the SW galaxy at all in the first place.
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Re: New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

Post by The Dark »

His Divine Shadow wrote: Relevant information and sources are:
The 5th fleet has 5 battlegroups with 5 task forces... a task force is twenty one ships, thats 500 ships for the 5th fleet
-Tyrant's Test(Paraphrasing)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that actually comes out to 525 ships. Not a big difference, but enough when working on the scale that you are. An extra 125,000 ships is always nice :D .
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Where does it say 11,000 worlds?

I have a canon guru friend of mine I might have to bring this up with.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Where does it say 11,000 worlds?

I have a canon guru friend of mine I might have to bring this up with.
Before the Storm, first book of the Black Fleet Crisis.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Where does it say 11,000 worlds?

I have a canon guru friend of mine I might have to bring this up with.
Before the Storm, first book of the Black Fleet Crisis.
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Post by Publius »

Page 72 of Before the Storm, Chapter5 (Guild Books America collected trilogy hardcover edition):
"The New Republic is a mutual self-protection pact among four hundred sentient species, and an economic partnership between eleven thousand inhabited worlds," said Leia. "But you'll find that the autonomy of member worlds is hardly compromised at all -- "
Elsewhere in the same novel, President Organa Solo states (p. 22) that there are ten new applications for membership per day; earlier in her conversation with Viceroy Spaar, she mentions (p. 72) "the leaders of some of the hundred worlds which have become members in the last twenty-eight days."

The New Republic comprises, at this time, approximately 1.1 per cent. the territory of the Galactic Empire at the time of the Battle of Yavin, if one counts only the one million full members of the latter, and disregards the fifty millions of governments, protectorates, and colonies also controlled by the Empire.

Given that the Empire had an average of 0.025 Star Destroyers per member, one could reasonably expect something on the order of 275 Star Destroyers' worth of warmaking capacity on the part of the New Republic, if the New Republic maintained similar levels of operational readiness.

Of course, one must consider that whilst this New Republic is nominally and ideologically identical to the New Republic of the pre-Operation Shadow Hand period, it is not actually so. That New Republic was handily dismantled by the Galactic Emperor when he emerged from the Deep Core in Dark Empire; in fact, by the time of Empire's End, one can conclude that the Empire had already seized control of almost the entirety of its former domains. (For documentation of this shift in territorial dominion, refer to Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command, the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and The Essential Chronology.)

The New Republic seen in the Black Fleet Crisis has only been re-constituted six years previously; prior to that, it was once again the rebel Alliance, having lost the majority of its territory and conventional warmaking capacity. Considering how easily and thoroughly the New Republic was defeated, it is not at all surprising that its second incarnation does not boast of the same rapid growth and territorial expansion as its first.

As a side note, one finds that the Fifth Fleet is treated somewhat oddly throughout Before the Storm; when it is first introduced (p. 11), the narrator refers to it as the "Fifth Battle Group of the New Republic Defence Fleet." In the Headquarters, New Republic Defence Forces, the members of the Senate's Council on the Common Defence and the Joint Operations Defence Staff refer to it (p. 22) as the "Fifth Fleet."

Finally, when General A'baht sends a dispatch to the HQ, NRDF, recommending that his command be considered operational, he refers to it (p. 24) as the "Fifth Defence Task Force."
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

As a side note, one finds that the Fifth Fleet is treated somewhat oddly throughout Before the Storm; when it is first introduced (p. 11), the narrator refers to it as the "Fifth Battle Group of the New Republic Defence Fleet." In the Headquarters, New Republic Defence Forces, the members of the Senate's Council on the Common Defence and the Joint Operations Defence Staff refer to it (p. 22) as the "Fifth Fleet."

IIRC thats the only incident though.
The rest of the times it fits with the battlegroup idea.

Civilians you know.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

So I suppose the majority of the galaxy's worlds are in loose confederations or alliances or wholely indepedent and either way not part of the Imperial Remnant nor the New Republic (Chronology says Imperial territory is limited to warlord kingdoms in the Deep Core and a patch of territory on the Outer Rim under Pelleaon).
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:So I suppose the majority of the galaxy's worlds are in loose confederations or alliances or wholely indepedent and either way not part of the Imperial Remnant nor the New Republic (Chronology says Imperial territory is limited to warlord kingdoms in the Deep Core and a patch of territory on the Outer Rim under Pelleaon).
I believe most of the Deep Core is abandoned and only the outer-rim territories remain.
The rest anyway probably never formed a single cohesive force, they'd prolly be stronger than the NR then.
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Re: New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

Post by Alyeska »

His Divine Shadow wrote:Republic fleets, low-end:
2 fleets containing 600 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 200 ships

Total 1900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 10,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, mid-end:
2 fleets containing 800 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 400 ships

Total 2900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 14,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, high-end:
4 fleets containing 1000 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships

Total 4500 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 22,5 million ships.
IMO even the highest Republic fleet count seems conservative. On the same line of reasoning the lowest Imperial count seems a little liberal.

I would have pegged the Alliance as having closer to 3,000 ships low end and the Empire in the 6-8 million range low-end. High end for the Alliance IMO could be closer to 10,000 and the Empire ought to be 16-18 million.
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Re: New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Alyeska wrote:IMO even the highest Republic fleet count seems conservative. On the same line of reasoning the lowest Imperial count seems a little liberal.

Liberal compared to what people have generally been saying, I don't pay much attention to such things though, they where like ultimate low-ends anyway based on the minimum amount of ships for a sector fleet.
I would have pegged the Alliance as having closer to 3,000 ships low end and the Empire in the 6-8 million range low-end. High end for the Alliance IMO could be closer to 10,000 and the Empire ought to be 16-18 million.
Nah, remember, they where absolutely flattened by palpy in Dark Empire, they only have 11.000 worlds at this time in the books.
And political elements are critical of the fifth fleet even.

As for the imps, the high-ends are more like 30-40 million ships, ofcourse they are overruled now since official evidence gives us both absolute low and high limits, all we can do is to wonder.
At any rate even 22 million is not alot give the size and number of worlds of the empire.
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Re: New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Alyeska wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:Republic fleets, low-end:
2 fleets containing 600 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 200 ships

Total 1900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 10,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, mid-end:
2 fleets containing 800 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 400 ships

Total 2900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 14,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, high-end:
4 fleets containing 1000 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships

Total 4500 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 22,5 million ships.
IMO even the highest Republic fleet count seems conservative. On the same line of reasoning the lowest Imperial count seems a little liberal.

I would have pegged the Alliance as having closer to 3,000 ships low end and the Empire in the 6-8 million range low-end. High end for the Alliance IMO could be closer to 10,000 and the Empire ought to be 16-18 million.
You do realize the Dodonna calcs will peg Imp fleet sizes at quite a bit higher, don't you? Especially when you consider taht the DS puts out 1e38 joules, anything less than 1e9 ships total seems ludicrous (I personaly think ti should be around e10 e12)

And don't pull the "Dodonna quote calcs are vague" otherwise I'm going to bring in the EU sources backing the notion that the Dodonna quote DID talk about the superlaser. :D
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Re: New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

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His Divine Shadow wrote:Okie, I have done fleet calcs for the Empire and New Republic as of the Black Fleet Crisis(which BTW was when the NR had collapsed in worlds and millitary), it seems that the New Republic, has 5 Fleets, the fifth fleet has 500 ships, and there are other fleets have more, and the Imperial Fleet was 5000 times larger during it's height, so from this I have created a low, mid and high-end calc, no republic fleet went over 1000 ships though.

Republic fleets, low-end:
2 fleets containing 600 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 200 ships

Total 1900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 10,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, mid-end:
2 fleets containing 800 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 400 ships

Total 2900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 14,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, high-end:
4 fleets containing 1000 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships

Total 4500 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 22,5 million ships.

Crakens Threat dossier also states on page 64 That
A Defense Force Fleet is parrellel in function and size to an agumented Imperial Sector Group. Using the Imperial Sourcebooks OB this is around 45000 ships (Combat and Support), If the republic has 5 fleets of this size then they have 225000 ships (all types).
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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

Perhaps, Dodonna was inferring that the power level, in wattage, was eqivalent to half the starfleet. Something which can produce 1e38 joules a day (about 86400 seconds) (Although this doesn't include surface TL emplacements and power towards other things, those are insignificant compared to the power of the DS superlaser), then it would need about 1e33 watts. With a billion ships, on average, each ship would use 1e24 watts on average. The billion number may include DS TL emplacements, and TL emplacement elsewhere near Imperial bases.
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Re: New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Executor wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:Okie, I have done fleet calcs for the Empire and New Republic as of the Black Fleet Crisis(which BTW was when the NR had collapsed in worlds and millitary), it seems that the New Republic, has 5 Fleets, the fifth fleet has 500 ships, and there are other fleets have more, and the Imperial Fleet was 5000 times larger during it's height, so from this I have created a low, mid and high-end calc, no republic fleet went over 1000 ships though.

Republic fleets, low-end:
2 fleets containing 600 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 200 ships

Total 1900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 10,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, mid-end:
2 fleets containing 800 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 400 ships

Total 2900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 14,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, high-end:
4 fleets containing 1000 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships

Total 4500 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 22,5 million ships.

Crakens Threat dossier also states on page 64 That
A Defense Force Fleet is parrellel in function and size to an agumented Imperial Sector Group. Using the Imperial Sourcebooks OB this is around 45000 ships (Combat and Support), If the republic has 5 fleets of this size then they have 225000 ships (all types).
Err.. a Sector group is 2400 ships (only 1600 of which are combat ships, and 24 star destroyers)

So where do you get this 45,000 ships?
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Perhaps, Dodonna was inferring that the power level, in wattage, was eqivalent to half the starfleet. Something which can produce 1e38 joules a day (about 86400 seconds) (Although this doesn't include surface TL emplacements and power towards other things, those are insignificant compared to the power of the DS superlaser), then it would need about 1e33 watts. With a billion ships, on average, each ship would use 1e24 watts on average. The billion number may include DS TL emplacements, and TL emplacement elsewhere near Imperial bases.
Except that the Dodonna quote is clarified in the EGW&T to mean specifically the superlaser.
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Post by DodoBrd16 »

I am assuming that the Imperial fleet is made up of primarily corevets and smaller cruisers....

The whole damn thing isnt Star Destroyers is it?
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Post by Raptor 597 »

DodoBrd16 wrote:I am assuming that the Imperial fleet is made up of primarily corevets and smaller cruisers....

The whole damn thing isnt Star Destroyers is it?
Not mostly, but I'd say atleast half are ISD Size and up. Any smaller ships act around Star Destroyers. Though the Star Destroyer Rate could be hgher, for enfocement, offense, defense, etc
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Post by DodoBrd16 »

Kinda hard to believe that the ISD force could be more then 1/4 the total fleet strength.

How the heck could the New Republic hope to defeat the empire, even after the death of the Emperor. Sheesh Thrawn or Issard should have been able to pull together the empire and rail road the Rebels.
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Re: New Republic & Imperial Fleet calcs

Post by Executor »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Executor wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:Okie, I have done fleet calcs for the Empire and New Republic as of the Black Fleet Crisis(which BTW was when the NR had collapsed in worlds and millitary), it seems that the New Republic, has 5 Fleets, the fifth fleet has 500 ships, and there are other fleets have more, and the Imperial Fleet was 5000 times larger during it's height, so from this I have created a low, mid and high-end calc, no republic fleet went over 1000 ships though.

Republic fleets, low-end:
2 fleets containing 600 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 200 ships

Total 1900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 10,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, mid-end:
2 fleets containing 800 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships
2 fleets containing 400 ships

Total 2900 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 14,5 million ships.

Republic fleets, high-end:
4 fleets containing 1000 ships
1 fleet containing 500 ships

Total 4500 ships, Imperial fleet in return is 22,5 million ships.

Crakens Threat dossier also states on page 64 That
A Defense Force Fleet is parrellel in function and size to an agumented Imperial Sector Group. Using the Imperial Sourcebooks OB this is around 45000 ships (Combat and Support), If the republic has 5 fleets of this size then they have 225000 ships (all types).
Err.. a Sector group is 2400 ships (only 1600 of which are combat ships, and 24 star destroyers)

So where do you get this 45,000 ships?

Its a fully argumented sector group. Instead of the normal 4 lines per squadron it has 8 per squadron, then there are 8 squadron per systems force, 8 systems force per fleet and 8 fleets(not including 1 deepdock and 1 support fleet) in a sector group.
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