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A What If: Change of "Ground Rules"

Posted: 2004-09-26 01:19am
by Kazuaki Shimazaki
Not sure how many times this has actually been done before. I'm sure at least some of us had lamented it privately or within the space of another debate.

As a reminder, this is a non-SoD question.

WEG laid out many of the 'ground rules' for Star Wars authors. Of course, those authors don't check out the screen, and let WEG's crappy research leak into their work. Some of them even seem to bring over the RPG model for writing their battles. When they aren't doing that, they bring the model used in TIE Fighter, which led to many well known gaffes. Rationalize them you may try, but really, we all know they are just stupid gaffes.

What if, instead of waiting till around the 21st century, LFL hired competent people of the same class as Curtis Saxton (since Curtis Saxton may have no interest at the time, or even be too young) to lay out the first ground rules?

Some of the improvements are obvious - everything would be the right size and all that. The ISDs would be Imperators. There would be no Super-class gaffe.

But what else would change? For example, Saxton uses the "Offense-Defense" model. In the WEG scheme, power differences between large and small ships are compressed. Under Offense-Defense however, the Executor would be nearly unassailable if it got "serious" (rather than like in ROTJ), so a typical Rebel vessel would likely be overwhelmed too quickly to cause harm. Or even if the Imperial vessel was substantially larger than the Rebel.

Also, since competent people that are not thinking about playbalance are up, when they write up the specs, they will probably say the ISD has a much more formidable AA defence.

Between that, most of the 'usual methods' that under WEG rules work won't work. Fighter attacks against capships would be relatively ineffective and would likely be repulsed. Hell, the TIEs might actually have shields, and a realistic (based on our historical experience) depiction from the get-go of a typical Rebellion would say that most of them are inadequately trained and would suffer heavy casualties against well armed and equipped government forces. Rebel starships might just be machine-gunned down by heavy Imperial vessels (of course, there would be a lot more of them than WEG thinks).

So what would that do to the depiction of the Galactic Civil War? Would the authors resort to even more stupid cop-outs than they do now to give their heroes a chance? Are the Rebel fleets going to get a little bigger?

Opinions? Thank you.

Re: A What If: Change of "Ground Rules"

Posted: 2004-09-26 01:47am
by Stofsk
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:What if, instead of waiting till around the 21st century, LFL hired competent people of the same class as Curtis Saxton (since Curtis Saxton may have no interest at the time, or even be too young) to lay out the first ground rules?
The WEG/WOTC concept of "Dark Side Force powers" may be rendered redundant as people realise that Luke used Force Grip/Choke/Strike/Whatever the fuck you want to call it on those two Gammorean guards. When you take AOTC into account with Yoda using Force Lightning on Dooku the concept is further buried IMO.

Posted: 2004-09-26 01:50am
by The Silence and I
Well, aside from making the EU consistent enough for me to consider paying for and reading, I think it runs a great risk: Either the authors get creative and the stories improve, or they get lazy and take the easy way out. Think technobable, only Star Wars.

Posted: 2004-09-26 01:51am
by Illuminatus Primus
No, Yoda just threw Dooku's lightning back at him. GL identified the lightning in the commentary I believe as Sith lightning and said it was an ability of the Dark Side.

In ROTJ, GL wanted to portray Luke as being really influenced by his experiences at Bespin ("once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny") so he had him Force choke guards and wear a black version of the Jedi cloak.

Posted: 2004-09-26 01:59am
by Stofsk
Illuminatus Primus wrote:No, Yoda just threw Dooku's lightning back at him. GL identified the lightning in the commentary I believe as Sith lightning and said it was an ability of the Dark Side.
Even if it's a Dark Side power I prefer to think that Yoda really did use it against Dooku as opposed to 'redirecting' it or something. It shows that Yoda can and will use the DS if the situation calls for it, even if it's only to make a point.

Posted: 2004-09-26 02:10am
by Illuminatus Primus
Stofsk wrote:Even if it's a Dark Side power I prefer to think that Yoda really did use it against Dooku as opposed to 'redirecting' it or something. It shows that Yoda can and will use the DS if the situation calls for it, even if it's only to make a point.
This isn't about what you'd like to think. Realistically these hypothetical source material authors will take tabs from GL commentary; and that means lightning will be a Dark Side only power.

Posted: 2004-09-26 02:11am
by Kurgan
Illuminatus Primus wrote:No, Yoda just threw Dooku's lightning back at him. GL identified the lightning in the commentary I believe as Sith lightning and said it was an ability of the Dark Side.

In ROTJ, GL wanted to portray Luke as being really influenced by his experiences at Bespin ("once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny") so he had him Force choke guards and wear a black version of the Jedi cloak.
Maybe I was dozing off while watching the filme, but I thought his cloak was normal Jedi colors, it was his outfit underneath that was black...

The Emperor on the otherhand, he wears a black robe (or dark blue, but I think that's just the lightning).

As far as Yoda is concerned, I have no problem with him being able to toss lightning. The Jedi philosopher in him just lets Dooku take the first shot, so it's "defense" (rather than attack). And I think that Yoda become the ultra peace-loving hippie AFTER the clone wars began, so it's not unreasonable to see him fighting and pulling out all the stops.

I don't buy the "the Dark Side doesn't exist" nonesense supposedly in the NJO, but I think it's not as cut and dried as the RPG version of the Force either.

I should listen to the commentary again. Does Lucas ever say anything about Yoda using the Lightning?

Posted: 2004-09-26 02:15am
by Stofsk
Illuminatus Primus wrote:This isn't about what you'd like to think. Realistically these hypothetical source material authors will take tabs from GL commentary; and that means lightning will be a Dark Side only power.
Ok. So what power was Yoda using then, if it wasn't Force Lightning?

Posted: 2004-09-26 02:23am
by Illuminatus Primus
There are Force powers describing the absorbion and reemission of energy; Yoda utilized this.

And furthermore, you're missing the point of the discussion. These hypothetical authors will label lightning a Dark Side power because GL says so, and therefore, they simply will not fall in with your ideas. I am afraid the simple reason is that your ideas do not only conflict with the "real ground rules" but George Lucas himself does not agree. Therefore there's no way your interpretation is the true one which is being denied by shitty EU, and no way in this hypothetical that it would be espoused.

Posted: 2004-09-26 03:51am
by Chris OFarrell
Actualy in Destiniys Way Jacen uses force lighting to zap a heep of Vong, but it doesn't actualy kill them. It was the 'light side' version of the lighting that only knocked them out.

And in that 'Dark Journy' when Jaina zapped Kyp with Dark Lightning, he was able to easily disipated it, pointing out she was not the only one who had dabled with the Dark Side.

Posted: 2004-09-26 06:27am
by Illuminatus Primus
Are you stupid?

The whole point of the hypothetical in this thread is "what if the EU ground-rules" were different. How would the EU and its interpretations change. Therefore the only real admissable stuff is filmic canon and GL's thoughts.

We KNOW how it is in the real EU; we're arguing how it'd be different. Ready the thread, Christ.