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While watching the DVD I noticed that the laboured, "death rattle" breathing starts when Luke has him down on the ground with his hand severed. It's the first time I noticed this, so I don't know if it was in the VHS version or not.

Prior to this I always assumed the equipment was damaged by Palpatine frying it when Vader grabbed him, but now it seems that the signature sound of the malfunctioning (or non-functioning) artificial breather starts before that.

Could Luke have been using the Force to damage Vader's life-support equipment?

Jean Paul wrote: Prior to this I always assumed the equipment was damaged by Palpatine frying it when Vader grabbed him, but now it seems that the signature sound of the malfunctioning (or non-functioning) artificial breather starts before that.

Vader gets up and stands next to the emperor like everythings fine. I would think that the life support system may well have been damaged, but not critically until Palpy gave him the shocker.

More like Vader was seriously puffed, and the breathing equipment sound combined with the microphone made that noise. On SWTC there's a pretty good examination of Vader's injuries, and it basically says that Vader was fine, though exhausted (aside from the hand) till Palpatine zapped him.

Well, it always looked to me like Vader moved himself into position to get his hand lopped off. (The coreography didn't seem right.) The only in-universe explanation I can think of is that Luke must've been pummeling him pretty hard with Force-blows, because Vader's movements don't seem to make sense otherwise.

Mad wrote:Well, it always looked to me like Vader moved himself into position to get his hand lopped off. (The coreography didn't seem right.) The only in-universe explanation I can think of is that Luke must've been pummeling him pretty hard with Force-blows, because Vader's movements don't seem to make sense otherwise.

He also could have just messed up in the fight. That sort of thing happens to even the best swordsmen.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Mad wrote:Well, it always looked to me like Vader moved himself into position to get his hand lopped off. (The coreography didn't seem right.) The only in-universe explanation I can think of is that Luke must've been pummeling him pretty hard with Force-blows, because Vader's movements don't seem to make sense otherwise.

He also could have just messed up in the fight. That sort of thing happens to even the best swordsmen.

Looked to me like he was falling down from the force of those blows and grabbed the railing to steady himself and Luke came down hard.

Jean Paul wrote:While watching the DVD I noticed that the laboured, "death rattle" breathing starts when Luke has him down on the ground with his hand severed. It's the first time I noticed this, so I don't know if it was in the VHS version or not.

It always has been. Judging by the accompanying head movements, its just really heavy breathing, amplified by pain.

I've always said that once Luke became enraged by Vader, he simply took a fight to him Vader couldn't keep up with. In other words, Vader can't fight a vigorous fast moving battle. His life support system simply won't allow it.

I presented this hypothesis to Dr. Saxton several years ago.

I don't know, Luke and Vader were going at it hard in ESB, Vader moved quite fast there more than once- I just think that Vader was overpowered force wise.

Vympel wrote:I don't know, Luke and Vader were going at it hard in ESB, Vader moved quite fast there more than once- I just think that Vader was overpowered force wise.

It is a little different if you have the initiative, because you know you can stop if you have to.

Vympel wrote:I don't know, Luke and Vader were going at it hard in ESB, Vader moved quite fast there more than once- I just think that Vader was overpowered force wise.

That would make sense.

George Lucas stated repeatedly in the audio commentary that Vader was not as strong in the force as he had been when he was younger. All of his life support systems were diminshing his abilities in the Force. That is why Vader needed Luke to overthrow the Emperor, and the Emperor wanted Luke to replace Vader. At that point, Luke was much stronger than Vader in the Force.

Its not until the Zapping until Vader seemed to be in trouble. It may aslo be that Vader needed his Dark Side skills in order to stay alive with out his life support systems funtioning properly. After that attack on the Emperor, the dark side left him to himself and that likely made a bad situation worse. Vader might have been beyond help at that point.

Isolder74 wrote:It may also be that Vader needed his Dark Side skills in order to stay alive with out his life support systems funtioning properly.

In Shadows of the Empire(?) he was breathing just fine using the dark side, but he needed total concentration. The little spark of good kept him to a few minutes.

Duken wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:It may also be that Vader needed his Dark Side skills in order to stay alive with out his life support systems funtioning properly.

In Shadows of the Empire(?) he was breathing just fine using the dark side, but he needed total concentration. The little spark of good kept him to a few minutes.

That was kind of my point. A spark of good held him back imagine what happenned when he turned away from the bad

Lord Poe wrote:I've always said that once Luke became enraged by Vader, he simply took a fight to him Vader couldn't keep up with. In other words, Vader can't fight a vigorous fast moving battle. His life support system simply won't allow it.

I presented this hypothesis to Dr. Saxton several years ago.

I'd agree with this. Anakin as of AotC is vastly more agile and artful a swordsman than he was as of RotJ. By the time of the OT, his fighting is no longer aggressive and quick, but slow and deliberate, like an old man. I'd think that if he was still capable of moving like he did in his youth, it would have made his fight with Obi-Wan and Luke go alot smoother.

You know, it’s possible that Vadar was simply very out of practice with a lightsaber. Since all the other jedi were killed or in hiding, he might not have actually practiced his saber skills in years. Luke, on the other hand, had probably been practicing quite a bit as part of his jedi training.

He also might have just been getting old. Both Anakin and Ben didn't look nearly as spry during their duel in ANH as they did in the prequel movies.

nasor wrote:You know, it’s possible that Vadar was simply very out of practice with a lightsaber. Since all the other jedi were killed or in hiding, he might not have actually practiced his saber skills in years. Luke, on the other hand, had probably been practicing quite a bit as part of his jedi training.

He also might have just been getting old. Both Anakin and Ben didn't look nearly as spry during their duel in ANH as they did in the prequel movies.

Vader used modified droids for lightsaber practice opponents (Luke was said to use similar Droid in the Jedi Academy PC-game)

nasor wrote:You know, it’s possible that Vadar was simply very out of practice with a lightsaber. Since all the other jedi were killed or in hiding, he might not have actually practiced his saber skills in years. Luke, on the other hand, had probably been practicing quite a bit as part of his jedi training.

He also might have just been getting old. Both Anakin and Ben didn't look nearly as spry during their duel in ANH as they did in the prequel movies.

In the comics I believe they show Vader duelling with robots.

And then there's the whole, even old guys can be really good swordsmen. The experience makes it like chess. So it's not like a bunch of flashy moves, but a real emphasis on control and strategy.

neoolong wrote:In the comics I believe they show Vader duelling with robots.

And then there's the whole, even old guys can be really good swordsmen. The experience makes it like chess. So it's not like a bunch of flashy moves, but a real emphasis on control and strategy.

Experience is fine and great, but a swordsman still has to be in decent enough shape to use that experience effectively, something that is questionable when regarding Vader.

nasor wrote:You know, it’s possible that Vadar was simply very out of practice with a lightsaber. Since all the other jedi were killed or in hiding, he might not have actually practiced his saber skills in years. Luke, on the other hand, had probably been practicing quite a bit as part of his jedi training.

Shadows of the Empire would say otherwise. It shows him keeping up practice daily.

He also might have just been getting old. Both Anakin and Ben didn't look nearly as spry during their duel in ANH as they did in the prequel movies.

They don't have to be...one good hit and it doesn't matter how much flash or pomp you do, you're dead. Vader style as well as Obi Wan's represented more thinking then leaping which gave the better look at them realizing they don't all have to be Master Yoda's style of crack junkie.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Experience is fine and great, but a swordsman still has to be in decent enough shape to use that experience effectively, something that is questionable when regarding Vader.

Obviously. But, we already know that Vader keeps in practice, and therefore shape.

neoolong wrote:In the comics I believe they show Vader duelling with robots.

And then there's the whole, even old guys can be really good swordsmen. The experience makes it like chess. So it's not like a bunch of flashy moves, but a real emphasis on control and strategy.

The experience that comes with advanced age is great and all, but there’s a reason why most Olympic fencers and kendo champions are in their twenties. The advantage in experience that comes with age usually doesn’t make up for the deficit in strength and speed. You can find examples of champions who lasted into their late 30s and early 40s, but they're usually the exceptions.

Even if he had some special practice droids, I just can’t see Vader spending much time practicing his saber skills. In ATOC Kenobi makes an off-handed comment that seems to indicate that Anakin doesn’t spend as much time practicing with his lightsaber as Ben thinks he should. I can’t imagine him getting much better about it once he becomes arrogant and powerful, and most of his likely saber opponents are dead or in hiding.

From what Ghost Rider said, apparently Vader practiced daily. I'd say that's spending quite a bit of time.

Well, you have to balance the fact that Shadow of the Empire says he practiced daily against the fact that he appeared to suck when fighting Luke – a ‘jedi’ who was only partially trained and inexperienced. I guess it’s a matter of opinion, but in the final duel in ROTJ Vader looks like an older, out-of-practice guy who’s getting pounded by a young, angry guy. Maybe fighting robots isn't adequate practice for fighting other force-sensitive individuals.