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Inspired by FTeik's Post here

Fteik wrote:As the old saying goes, every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.

Sure, some, if not most of the things Vader did, where monstrous - but would the alternatives have been better?

If Anakin had never turned to the Dark Side, say instead of slaughtering the sand people just took his mothers body home and grieved normally...
If he had resisted the quick and easy path and rebuffed sidiuos' advances?
How would that galaxy have unfolded?

"Grieved normally?" If you had a lightsaber, you're saying you wouldn't go ape shit and kill the people responsible for your mother's death?

I sure would...

Anyway, on topic, I don't think we can quite answer this question until we see exactly what Anakin does in ROTS. I suspect that Anakin is really irrelevant (Dooku defeated him easily), and if he didn't join Palpatine, he would've been destroyed with the rest of the Jedi.

If as suspected Anakin causes Dooku's demise in ROTS, I think there would be a power struggle between Dooku and Palpatine. It would be interesting if they wipe each other out. I wonder what would happen with the massive military buildup and the Supreme chancellors emergency powers. Also getting back to Anakin, how would he face the Jedi council with the illicit love affair and all?

McC wrote:"Grieved normally?" If you had a lightsaber, you're saying you wouldn't go ape shit and kill the people responsible for your mother's death?

I sure would...

He didn't only kill the one(s) responsible, but went on to kill everyone in the tribe. Would you butcher the entire tribe, regardless if they were all responsible or not? If you would, you are one sick fucker.

I missed the part where Sand people made a distinction between "civilian" and "combatant." They don't. The children will grow into ruthless killers. The men already are. The women we don't know for sure, but I see no reason to doubt otherwise.

Plus, silence implies consent, so by not doing a damn thing to ease the suffering of their tortured prisoner, they are by proxy as guilty as those who did the torturing.

So, to answer your question directly, I'd likely take out all the combatant-looking Tuskens. Anyone who wanted to fuck with me after seeing their best warriors decapitated would be welcome to try.

EDIT: Fixed missing word in first paragraph.

McC wrote:I missed the part where Sand people made a distinction between "civilian" and "combatant." They don't. The children will grow into ruthless killers. The men already are. The women we don't know for sure, but I see no reason to doubt otherwise.

By your logic, we should be NUKING THE MIDDLE EAST!!!! KILL THEM ALL!!! BURN ALL OF THEM IN A NUCLEAR HELLFIRE, BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY GOING TO GROW UP TO BE RUTHLESS KILLERS!!!

Plus, silence implies consent, so by not doing a damn thing to ease the suffering of their tortured prisoner, they are by proxy as guilty as those who did the torturing.

Children who don't know the difference are innocent. And women, I assume, have no say as to the way things are ran in the tribe. Unless you can provide some EU material that says women make decisions in Tusken Raider tribes.

So, to answer your question directly, I'd likely take out all the combatant-looking Tuskens. Anyone who wanted to fuck with me after seeing their best warriors decapitated would be welcome to try.

Then what about all of this horseshit regarding the children growing up into ruthless killers, so piss on them? Why not just say this from the start?

McC wrote:I missed the part where Sand people made a distinction between "civilian" and "combatant." They don't. The children will grow into ruthless killers. The men already are. The women we don't know for sure, but I see no reason to doubt otherwise.

Plus, silence implies consent, so by not doing a damn thing to ease the suffering of their tortured prisoner, they are by proxy as guilty as those who did the torturing.

So, to answer your question directly, I'd likely take out all the combatant-looking Tuskens. Anyone who wanted to fuck with me after seeing their best warriors decapitated would be welcome to try.

EDIT: Fixed missing word in first paragraph.

Sand people we see are both men and women. They just dress the same.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Sand people we see are both men and women. They just dress the same.

Aha...so it's possible some of the ones we saw in the movies are female...

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:By your logic, we should be NUKING THE MIDDLE EAST!!!! KILL THEM ALL!!! BURN ALL OF THEM IN A NUCLEAR HELLFIRE, BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY GOING TO GROW UP TO BE RUTHLESS KILLERS!!!

Strawman. By my logic, if a specific "tribe" or sect or some such in the Middle East were to kidnap and torture my mother to death, I would have no compunctions about annihilating much of that group. You unreasonably and irrationally expanded my statement beyond the scope under discussion.

Children who don't know the difference are innocent. And women, I assume, have no say as to the way things are ran in the tribe. Unless you can provide some EU material that says women make decisions in Tusken Raider tribes.

You're deluding yourself if you think Tusken children aren't trained to be like their adult counterparts from birth. As for the women, see Captain Chewbacca's comments.

Then what about all of this horseshit regarding the children growing up into ruthless killers, so piss on them? Why not just say this from the start?

'cause Tusken "children" are as dangerous as any other Tusken, assuming they brandish a weapon. Although if we assume I have at my command Anakin's powers as well, I'd more than likely just Force-push them away to render them unconcious if they attacked. As I said, those who don't attack and who are presently incapable of attacking are spared. The rest are targets of revenge.

I don't take threats/attacks on family kindly

McC wrote:Strawman. By my logic, if a specific "tribe" or sect or some such in the Middle East were to kidnap and torture my mother to death, I would have no compunctions about annihilating much of that group. You unreasonably and irrationally expanded my statement beyond the scope under discussion.

I'll come back to this.

You're deluding yourself if you think Tusken children aren't trained to be like their adult counterparts from birth. As for the women, see Captain Chewbacca's comments.

So what? Just because children are being trained to become ruthless killers does not mean they are valid targets. They are still children. The Hitler's Youth children were being trained to become Nazi soldiers. Would you say they are all legitimate targets to kill before becoming Nazi soldiers?

'cause Tusken "children" are as dangerous as any other Tusken, assuming they brandish a weapon. Although if we assume I have at my command Anakin's powers as well, I'd more than likely just Force-push them away to render them unconcious if they attacked. As I said, those who don't attack and who are presently incapable of attacking are spared. The rest are targets of revenge.

Really? So "annihilating much of that group" becomes "Force-push them away to render them unconcious," hmm?

I don't take threats/attacks on family kindly

Neither do I. But your initial statements defending Anakin's actions and comparing them to ones you'd take are taking it too far.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:So what? Just because children are being trained to become ruthless killers does not mean they are valid targets. They are still children. The Hitler's Youth children were being trained to become Nazi soldiers. Would you say they are all legitimate targets to kill before becoming Nazi soldiers?

Watch your mother die and then tell me you have the presence of mind to give two shits about who's a "valid target" and who's not.

To answer your question directly, where the Nazi Youth children working at the death camp? If so, then their status as "invalid targets" becomes very questionable. Changing the rules a bit, if a close friend confessed to me that he had killed "even the Nazi youth!" working at the death camp they tortured his mother at, I wouldn't be remotely disturbed by this action. Would I take it myself? Possibly -- depends on the level of rage, the size of the death camp (were they totally isolated from the torture, directly involved? did they stone my mother as part of the torture?), and so forth. I cannot accurately predict with complete certainty what I would do in such a circumstance. I do know it would not be pretty.

Really? So "annihilating much of that group" becomes "Force-push them away to render them unconcious," hmm?

We're going to end up arguing semantics pretty soon...oh wait, here we go! Much being the key word. Much, particularly when talking about Tuskens, can mean just the men and women combatants.

Neither do I. But your initial statements defending Anakin's actions and comparing them to ones you'd take are taking it too far.

Maybe. I generally hope it never comes to pass, personally

For Anakin fighting the Tuskens, one option could have been that he simply stood his ground, and the Tuskens kept charging at him. Anakin might have moved around, so the dead bodies didn't interfere with his movement, but other than that, anyone who came after him would have died.

So the two guards outside the tent would have been dead (I would assume two guards outside a tortured prisoner were accomplices), and from there, anyone who charged in would die.

Hopefully, after several members of the tribe see that anyone who comes after Anakin dies, that some would start to figure out that approaching the guy with the glowing weapon is a bad idea. For those that still come in, its Darwin Award time.

Then again, for the Tuskens, their entire life is a battle against the desert, a very harsh environment. So they have to be ruthless, because those htat aren't ruthless die. So they could have the same mindset as killer bees when threatened, aka everyone fight, or the tribe dies. If they don't fight, then the tribe dies anyway.

So the Tuskens might have fought to the death anyway, in spite of any possible restraint on Anakin's part.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:So what? Just because children are being trained to become ruthless killers does not mean they are valid targets. They are still children. The Hitler's Youth children were being trained to become Nazi soldiers. Would you say they are all legitimate targets to kill before becoming Nazi soldiers?

Yes, they are. Because that would be war time, and if those kids pick up a rifle and defend the Fatherland they're just as valid targets than if they're 18 years old and 'adult'.

I have heard at least one story from my previous History teacher who related to the class how a friend of his during the Vietnam War had to shoot a child because he was going to set off a set of bombs and kill his squad. He was right to do so, even if it was a child, because to do nothing meant to indirectly cause the deaths or serious injury of his squadmates.

Really? So "annihilating much of that group" becomes "Force-push them away to render them unconcious," hmm?

You're assuming that Force push might be commanded under the circumstances. When you're enraged and blind to reason, a few things that might depend on co-ordination or presence of mind might be difficult a feat to invoke. Meanwhile, the lightsaber is active and humming, and a lot easier to use. It's not called "the quick, easy path" for nothing.

Neither do I. But your initial statements defending Anakin's actions and comparing them to ones you'd take are taking it too far.

And yet his actions are perfectly understandable given what he found they did to his mother. He wasn't acting rationally, he was consumed with anger and hatred. It's ugly, abhorrent, and evil, but it also happens to be human, and understandable.

Coalition wrote:For Anakin fighting the Tuskens, one option could have been that he simply stood his ground, and the Tuskens kept charging at him. Anakin might have moved around, so the dead bodies didn't interfere with his movement, but other than that, anyone who came after him would have died.

You're assuming rationality and presence of mind on Anakin's behalf. That's the only way he's going to 'stand his ground' and let the Tuskens win the SW Darwin awards. But he wasn't rational or in what I would call a sane frame of mind; he had basically two options, fight or flight. He chose the former, probably because he wasn't scared of the Tuskens, and primarily because the Dark Side was screaming for vengeance. Hard to deny when your mother just died in your arms, with visible lacerations that state she had been tortured.

Back to the original topic, Palpatine probably would have killed him and continued on his own.

McC wrote:Watch your mother die and then tell me you have the presence of mind to give two shits about who's a "valid target" and who's not.

I know that I wouldn't massacre an entire tribe of people.

To answer your question directly, where the Nazi Youth children working at the death camp?

No. They had no part in the Holocaust at all and were only being trained for the military as early as 10 years of age (at least until the Battle of Berlin). However, the Bund Deutscher Määdel (BDM), or League of German Maidens, rode in the freight trains to concentration camps. But that's as far as their participation went.

If so, then their status as "invalid targets" becomes very questionable. Changing the rules a bit, if a close friend confessed to me that he had killed "even the Nazi youth!" working at the death camp they tortured his mother at, I wouldn't be remotely disturbed by this action. Would I take it myself? Possibly -- depends on the level of rage, the size of the death camp (were they totally isolated from the torture, directly involved? did they stone my mother as part of the torture?), and so forth. I cannot accurately predict with complete certainty what I would do in such a circumstance. I do know it would not be pretty.

But they never did participate in the Holocaust, so it's a null point.

We're going to end up arguing semantics pretty soon...oh wait, here we go! Much being the key word. Much, particularly when talking about Tuskens, can mean just the men and women combatants.

Then you should have said that directly.

Maybe. I generally hope it never comes to pass, personally

Heh. I doubt it would.

Stofsk wrote:Yes, they are. Because that would be war time, and if those kids pick up a rifle and defend the Fatherland they're just as valid targets than if they're 18 years old and 'adult'.

That's fine. But what I'm talking about is the Hitler's Youth that didn't become soldiers yet, that were still in training. Besides, if the children Tusken Raiders tried to attack Anakin, then in my eyes they would also be combatants. Whether or not he should have killed them instead of "Force push them away to render them unconcious" is a different matter though. That is what he should have done. But we don't know what happened. All we know is that he killed everyone, and I think it's safe to assume that there were some non-combatants in the whole tribe. Hell, what if some of them were still infants?

I have heard at least one story from my previous History teacher who related to the class how a friend of his during the Vietnam War had to shoot a child because he was going to set off a set of bombs and kill his squad. He was right to do so, even if it was a child, because to do nothing meant to indirectly cause the deaths or serious injury of his squadmates.

As stated before, if a child was a combatant, then I agree that he should have been attacked. But then again the troops had no choice but to kill him while Anakin had the choice of "Force push them away to render them unconcious" or slice and dice them.

You're assuming that Force push might be commanded under the circumstances. When you're enraged and blind to reason, a few things that might depend on co-ordination or presence of mind might be difficult a feat to invoke. Meanwhile, the lightsaber is active and humming, and a lot easier to use. It's not called "the quick, easy path" for nothing.

Tell that to Maul who did the same trick to Obi-Wan, even though he's always enraged when he fights. Also, Vader did the same trick later on with all of the multiple objects he was flinging at Luke simultaneously.

And yet his actions are perfectly understandable given what he found they did to his mother. He wasn't acting rationally, he was consumed with anger and hatred. It's ugly, abhorrent, and evil, but it also happens to be human, and understandable.

It's understandable for a savage, which is what Anakin was, or became.

Ok people can we stop nitpicking the phrasing of my OP and debate the original issue? What if ANakin stayed lightside and devoted to the jedi? Could Palpy easily offed the most power force user ever?

Palpatine/Sidious would have a tough time eliminating the jedi. He'd also have Dooku who probably is conspiring to take his place. What about all the animosity Anakin has towards the Jedi council. Would he be accepted by them? Of course by ROTS the Jedi council will find out Palpatine is a Sith. Without Anakin by his side Palpatine is in trouble. I'd predict that Palpatine/Sidious would be killed either by the Jedi or by Dooku.

I suspect this got lost in the tangent we went off on, so here it is again:

I wrote:I don't think we can quite answer this question until we see exactly what Anakin does in ROTS. I suspect that Anakin is really irrelevant (Dooku defeated him easily), and if he didn't join Palpatine, he would've been destroyed with the rest of the Jedi.

If I had a lightsaber and the sandpeople had just killed my mother I wouldnt kill them like Anakin did. I'd be much more sadistic. I'd first cut off their arms and legs so that they couldnt escape or defend themselves. I would line them all up so that they could watch as I tortured them to death one by one. I'd start out with a blowtorch to incinerate the eyes of the first. Then I'd carve out his heart, and feed it to the next tusken in line to die. I'd force that tusken to choke to death on the heart of the first tusken. I'd continue my dismemberment activities till all the tuskens were dead.