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Imagine its the battle of Yavin, the Millenium falcon doesn't just whap Vader, it blows it up. How different is the fight of the Rebellion and the Empire?

Well, I could list all the possible different ways things could have gone, but I don't think Mr. Wong would be too happy with me posting a 24-terabyte document on his message board.

I think the war itself wouldn't change much. The Emperor will just send an admiral aboard the Executor for a retaliation campaign against the Rebels.

Now, if Thrawn was assigned to be in charge of the Death Squadron, the rebellion could be eliminated quicker. If it was Ozzell, well....

But if Vader was dead during the battle of Yavin, Luke would probably either be killed or turned to the Dark Side, since Vader wouldn't be around to save him during the Battle of Endor. Vader, after all, is supposed to be the one to restore the balance of the Force, isn't him?

Well, without Vader, who is there to distract Luke from his training with Yoda?

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Well, without Vader, who is there to distract Luke from his training with Yoda?

But could Luke really beat the Emperor even after completing his training?

Since when has Vader worn a tie?

I'm sorry but at first glance I misread the tie as tit in the title

back on topic, for any other man, losing an apprentice/servant that has been faithful for 20+ years is a hard thing to get over, but since we're talking about Palpatine here, Vader would be quickly replaced one of the Emporers hands or other dark jedi. I don't think Luke will seek out the emporer and try to face him one on one. Rather, with Luke's assistance the alliance will attempt to destroy him while he's on the DS2 or on Coruscant.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Well, without Vader, who is there to distract Luke from his training with Yoda?

But could Luke really beat the Emperor even after completing his training?

He wouldn't even have to confront the Emperor. Luke would feel no compelling reason to leave Endor and surrender himself to him. Worse: with Luke on the ground, I predict the attack on the Bunker would go a lot better for the Rebels, now that they have a Jedi knight to help them. When the Rebel Fleet comes out of hyperspace, the shield ought to be down. Then, Wedge and Lando fly in, while Ackbar acts originally to keep the Imperial Forces at bay. Without Vader, Piett would let the Commandos land without any scrutiny. Without Vader, Luke would not have left the team to tackle the Bunker by themselves.

Of course the Emperor might not be at Endor either.

I think the Emperor had sent a word to Mara Jade to come to his aid. It could have also been possible to place the Imperial fleet under the command of Grand Admiral Thrawn, and personnaly I think that Rebels would have had a though times ahead of them.

Luke would feel no compelling reason to leave Endor and surrender himself to him. Worse: with Luke on the ground, I predict the attack on the Bunker would go a lot better for the Rebels, now that they have a Jedi knight to help them.

You're forgetting that Palpatine was able to sense Luke. If Luke goes, the Emperor will know anyway... ergo, Luke (having completed his training and being far wiser) wouldn't have gone.

Or maybe they woulda got some Ysalimiri, or whatever it was.

SPOOFE wrote:

Luke would feel no compelling reason to leave Endor and surrender himself to him. Worse: with Luke on the ground, I predict the attack on the Bunker would go a lot better for the Rebels, now that they have a Jedi knight to help them.

You're forgetting that Palpatine was able to sense Luke. If Luke goes, the Emperor will know anyway... ergo, Luke (having completed his training and being far wiser) wouldn't have gone.

Or maybe they woulda got some Ysalimiri, or whatever it was.

Actualy Palpy DIDN'T sense Luke. Palpy knew that a rebel strike team was on Endor, but he was rather surprised when Vader came forward and said Luke was with them, having not felt his presence. This may well, in fact should, lead to the Imperials not being able to spring the trap as effectivly as they did. Luke may well get enough warning through teh force to be able to alert everyone, then help take out the Imperials as they run in. Buy enough time for the charges to be set, then get the hell out of dodge, the shield then droping shortly after the Rebel fleet has the trap sprung on them.

Well, the Endor scenario depends. Piett wouldn't let them through, but a fully trained Jedi might be able to make him do it against his will...

??? In ROTJ, Peit was just about to let them past the security line until Vader came in and started staring at the shuttle and inquiring about it. He says as much to Vader.

Stofsk wrote: He wouldn't even have to confront the Emperor. Luke would feel no compelling reason to leave Endor and surrender himself to him. Worse: with Luke on the ground, I predict the attack on the Bunker would go a lot better for the Rebels, now that they have a Jedi knight to help them. When the Rebel Fleet comes out of hyperspace, the shield ought to be down. Then, Wedge and Lando fly in, while Ackbar acts originally to keep the Imperial Forces at bay. Without Vader, Piett would let the Commandos land without any scrutiny. Without Vader, Luke would not have left the team to tackle the Bunker by themselves.

Of course the Emperor might not be at Endor either.

But the Emperor wouldn't die, and so the Imperial Fleet would remain coordinated.

Assuming though that Luke remaining on Endor causes the shield to be down when the Rebels arrived, wouldn't the Emperor also simply order the Superlaser and Starfleet to wipe them out at once, rather than toying with them?

how much of the endor trap would change because of vader's death? luke will no longer come to him, so itd have to be changed.

indeed, how would bespin change?

Also without Luke and Vader to distract him, the Emperor escaping from Edor becomes more likely.

The Battle of Hoth never would have occurred. Only Vader knew the Rebels were hiding there. The Rebels would have stayed on Hoth until they stole the plans for the DS II, if that would even happen. Han would have left Hoth to repay Jabba. He would have never gotten caught and frozen in carbonite. After he repaid Jabba he might have either gone back to smuggling or help the Rebels. Either way, Han and Leia wouldn't have fallen in love, at least not as quickly as they did in TESB. Luke might leave Hoth to train on Dagobah. His training might go on up until Yoda dies, since Luke would have no reason to leave Dagobah to rescue his friends on Bespin. Luke would be a much stronger Jedi by RotJ. Ben and/or Yoda might reveal that Vader was Luke's father and Leia is his sister before he leaves Dagobah.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:The Battle of Hoth never would have occurred. Only Vader knew the Rebels were hiding there.

Actually, Piett assumed that was where the Rebels were hiding as well. He knew that Ozzel, being the buffoon that he was, would dismiss the evidence, which is why he waited for Vader to be present before he brought it up. This paticular aspect relies heavily on who is placed in charge of the Death Squadron after Vader's death. If it is Ozzel, no problem, Hoth lives. If not, who knows.

Stofsk wrote:He wouldn't even have to confront the Emperor. Luke would feel no compelling reason to leave Endor and surrender himself to him. Worse: with Luke on the ground,

Worse?

Did you want the rebels to lose?

Yes! Death to the Rebels! Glory to the Empire! This isn't RebelCruiser.net you know!

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Actually, Piett assumed that was where the Rebels were hiding as well. He knew that Ozzel, being the buffoon that he was, would dismiss the evidence, which is why he waited for Vader to be present before he brought it up. This paticular aspect relies heavily on who is placed in charge of the Death Squadron after Vader's death. If it is Ozzel, no problem, Hoth lives. If not, who knows.

True...I forgot about that.

Would Luke actually be much stronger? Wasn't facing Vader kind of important to him becoming a jedi?

If Luke was in continuous training under Yoda for a few years before he died, yeah, I'd say he'd be much stronger.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:. Vader, after all, is supposed to be the one to restore the balance of the Force, isn't him?

But healready did when he whiped out the Jedi order thus bringing the light and the dark to parity.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:The Battle of Hoth never would have occurred. Only Vader knew the Rebels were hiding there.

Actually, Piett assumed that was where the Rebels were hiding as well. He knew that Ozzel, being the buffoon that he was, would dismiss the evidence, which is why he waited for Vader to be present before he brought it up. This paticular aspect relies heavily on who is placed in charge of the Death Squadron after Vader's death. If it is Ozzel, no problem, Hoth lives. If not, who knows.

Agree. IIRC Piet even said, "should I hold them?" or such. It's Vader who delibelatery let the shuttle pass because he knew it was that one shuttle containing the Rebels they would trap.

EDIT: If Piett caught the Shuttle and get the Rebels earlier (hence sparing the Emperor's Legion on Endor), would he ruin the Emperor's plan to turn Luke?