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Ok, I've been reading on this board about this cave and various theories about how it got "posessed" by the dark side.

I must say my interpretation differs somewhat, but keep in mind that I have read little EU.

I always thought the whole thing was just Yoda playing with Luke's head, sending him on a Force LSD self-discovery trip. I never actually thought of the cave itself as being significant. When Yoda says "that place is strong with the dark side", I thought he was referring to Luke's feelings of cold. Cold as in despair, fear, etc.

I always thought the whole thing was metaphorical, I don't get "those trees over there are evil" out of it at all.

What theories? It's stated in the Thrawn trilogy. A Dark Jedi fled Bpfassh, hid on Dagobah, ran into Yoda, had a massive force battle, and died in that cave, leaving a dark side stain of his presence there.

Praxis wrote:What theories? It's stated in the Thrawn trilogy. A Dark Jedi fled Bpfassh, hid on Dagobah, ran into Yoda, had a massive force battle, and died in that cave, leaving a dark side stain of his presence there.

just as he said, he hasn't read much about it... but now he knows the truth

Sean Howard wrote:Ok, I've been reading on this board about this cave and various theories about how it got "posessed" by the dark side.

I must say my interpretation differs somewhat, but keep in mind that I have read little EU.

I always thought the whole thing was just Yoda playing with Luke's head, sending him on a Force LSD self-discovery trip. I never actually thought of the cave itself as being significant. When Yoda says "that place is strong with the dark side", I thought he was referring to Luke's feelings of cold. Cold as in despair, fear, etc.

I always thought the whole thing was metaphorical, I don't get "those trees over there are evil" out of it at all.

Besides the obvious explanation by Praxis, Lucas did say in the ESB DVD commentary that the situation was created by Luke's mind, thus not the cave itself. I was looking at TPM the other day, and when Qui-Gon told the Jedi Council that he had located a vergence, then Mace asked if it was located around a person (thus opening up the possibilty for vergences around other things). My hypothesis is that the cave could be a vergence.

Praxis wrote:What theories? It's stated in the Thrawn trilogy. A Dark Jedi fled Bpfassh, hid on Dagobah, ran into Yoda, had a massive force battle, and died in that cave, leaving a dark side stain of his presence there.

Page reference, please. I asked this before. I want to know what the text said.

[Edit] Don't bother, I'll do it myself.

For reference they specifically mention it...or Luke does on Page 141 Heir to the Empire

Ghost Rider wrote:For reference they specifically mention it...or Luke does on Page 141 Heir to the Empire

Are you sure? I might have a different copy from yours - what chapter is it?

Actually it's page 158 in my book.

Leia stared at him. "Dagobah?" she asked. "As in the planet that Dark Jedi from Bpfassh fled to?"
Luke nodded. "That's the place." He fingered the beckon call, an odd expression on his face. "This must have been his."

...snip...

"No," Luke said, shaking his head slowly. "It was his, all right. The cave where I found it absolutely tingles with the dark side. I think it must have been the place where he died."

And I can't remember the page, but in Vision of the Future, Jorj Cardass (whom the Dark Jedi forced to fly his ship to Dagobah) actually WITNESSED the force battle between Yoda and the Dark Jedi and attempts to describe it to Luke.

HttE, chapter 9, pp. 106 wrote:(Luke)"I'd better come along."

Han looked at Leia. "Well, actually... you can't."

Luke Frowned at him. "Why not?"

"Because," Leia answered quietly. "the Bpfasshi don't like Jedi."

Han's lip twisted. "The story is that some of their Jedi went bad during the Clone Wars and really mangled things before they were stopped. Or so Mon Mothma says."

"She's right," Leia nodded. "We were still getting echoes of the whole fiasco in the Imperial Senate when I was serving there. It wasn't just Bpfassh, either - some of those Dark Jedi escaped and made trouble all throughout the Sluis sector. One of them even got as far as Dagobah before he was caught."

Luke felt a jolt run through him. Dagobah? "When was that?" he asked as casually as possible.

"Thirty, thirty-five years ago." Leia said, her forehead creased slightly as she studied his face. "Why?"

Luke shook his head. Yoda had never mentioned a Dark Jedi ever being on Dagobah. "No reason." he murmered.

Significant because it implies that Dagobah wasn't an unknown world, it had at least some nominal contact with the rest of the Galaxy, even if people did not know its full significance as the safehouse of a Jedi in hiding.

Time commentary (please correct if need be): HttE takes place 9 years after ANH IIRC. AOTC takes place 22 years before ANH according to this. Add the two together you get 31 years. So, it's POSSIBLE that Zahn got this part right. The incident in question may have happened in the early stages of the Clone Wars. Or Leia got the numbers wrong; not inconceivable at all, as she didn't give a specific number to begin with.

HttE, chapter 11, pp.123 wrote:"Hang on, Artoo," Luke called as the first gusts of atmospheric turbulence began to bounce the X-wing around. "We're coming in. Scanners all working okay?"

There was an affirmative twitter from the rear, the translation appearing across his computer scope. "Good," Luke said, and turned his attention back to the cloud-shrouded planet rushing up to meet them. It was odd, he thought, how it had only been on that first trip in to Dagobah that the sensors had so totally failed on approach.

Or perhaps not so odd. Perhaps that had been Yoda, deliberately suppressing his instruments so as to be able to guide him unsuspectingly to the proper landing site.

Theorising and speculation. Luke couldn't know that Yoda was doing this at the time, but in retrospect it makes sense. Unfortunately it would be hard to confirm, as the Jedi master is now dead.

HttE, chapter 11, pp.127 wrote:(Artoo was searching for something electronical)His sensor plate turned slightly-

To point directly at the cave.

Luke swallowed hard. "You're sure?"

The droid trilled again. "You're sure." Luke said.

For a minute he just looked across through the mists at the cave, indecision swirling through his ming. There was no genuine need for him to go in there - of that much he was certain. Whatever it was Artoo had detected, it would not be anything Yoda had left behind. Not in there.
But then what was it? Leia had referred to a Bpfasshi Dark Jedi who'd come here. Could it be something of his?

Why would it be his? Did Artoo not detect before, five years ago when they visited Yoda's deathbed, or six years ago when they first came to Dagobah?

In fact, we find out much later that it isn't the Dark Jedi's, but somebody elses.

HttE, chapter 14, pp. 158 wrote:Leia stared at him. "Dagobah?" she asked. "As in the planet that Dark Jedi from Bpfassh fled to?"

Luke nodded. "That's the place." He fingered the beckon call, an odd expression on his face. "This must have been his."

...snip...

"No," Luke said, shaking his head slowly. "It was his, all right. The cave where I found it absolutely tingles with the dark side. I think it must have been the place where he died."

He's speculating, and there's no way to find out for sure that he's right. We know he's wrong about the beckon call, regardless. He could also be wrong about the cave. Why was the cave in question polluted by the Dark Jedi's presence? HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY STATE THAT THIS WAS THE CAUSE, ANYWAY. It may have been an EFFECT, i.e. the cave was evil before the battle, and the Dark Jedi's death exacerbated the environment like at Endor, but did not necessarily cause the cave to become evil.

Why didn't Yoda mention it to Luke? Why didn't he say "That was where I kicked some shithead's arse when you were a twinkle in your mother's eye... Oh wait, forget I mentioned that bit about your mother. I didn't know her. Nuh huh." *whistles*

Leia, DFR, chapter 7, pp. 98 wrote:"I really don't know," she had to admit. (she's responding to a question)

"It sounds like something Luke went through on - during his Jedi Training." She amended, remembering just in time that Luke wanted Dagobah's significane to be kept a secret. "All I felt was... I don't know. It was anger and bitterness; but at the same time, there was something almost sad about it. No, sad isn't the right word."

The MF passed through the spot where the DS2 blew up, so the implication is that Leia came into contact with some leftover remnants of the Emperor's psyche, which is impossible because Palpatine has now entered a Clone body and is busy on Byss preparing for his big counterattack. More likely, some kind of Dark Side nexus unconnected to Palpatine's soul or spirit or what have you, formed in orbit of Endor due to both the Emperor dying there, and the Ewok holocaust.

The fact she merely passed out highlights the latter as more likely. It's possible Leia picked up on the Ewok's suffering which got 'trapped' in this nexus. If Obi-wan can feel millions of deaths light years away, then Leia, who has some basic Jedi training, ought to feel the same. Notice the feelings she pointed out: anger and bitterness, just what the doomed Ewoks would likely feel at the destruction of their world; why would the Emperor, when he has a contingency that Luke and the Rebellion knew nothing about? But she also feels sadness, or something equated to it. Leia felt this as well - again it fits. Why would the Emperor be sad, or regretful? He's been reincarnated into a clone body, no-one knows about it, and he has thousands of ships gathering at Byss. He should be fucking happy.

Why does it have to be Dark Jedi or Sith, and nothing else? Alderaan's destruction sent ripples throughout the Force, and could be felt some distance from the location; the effect was so powerful that even Obi-wan needed to sit down, and he seemed in visible discomfort. In any case, what I wanted confirmed has been: your assertion that the cave came to be this way ISN'T supported by the Thrawn trilogy. Implied, perhaps. But there's too many problems with your assertion for it to be the only possible explanation.

Praxis wrote:And I can't remember the page, but in Vision of the Future, Jorj Cardass (whom the Dark Jedi forced to fly his ship to Dagobah) actually WITNESSED the force battle between Yoda and the Dark Jedi and attempts to describe it to Luke.

It was Karrde, actually.

VotF, chapter 31, pp. 504 wrote:(Car'das talks about the Dark Jedi from Bpfassh)

"It was a terrible experience," he said quietly, gazing into a cup. "Possibly the first time in my life I'd felt truly and genuinely terrified. He was half mad with rage - maybe more than half mad - with all of Darth Vader's power and none of his self-control. One of my crewmen he physically ripped to shreds, literally tearing his body apart. The other three he took over mentally, twisting and searing their minds and turning them into little more than living extensions of himself.

Car'das had incredible information sources available to him, so is it possible he knew Darth Vader's capabilities?

The exploits of this Dark Jedi are frightening. Does this mean Vader could do the same? That was what Car'das seemed to suggest. Same power, but nuts. Vader at least had self-control. Very interesting.

VotF, chapter 31, pp. 505 wrote:(he left me alone...)... I'm still not sure why, unless he thought he might need my knowledge of ports and spacelanes to make his escape. Or perhaps he simply wanted an intact mind left aboard who could recognise his power and greatness and be properly frightened by it."

The former makes more sense. The latter is interesting in its implication, if correct. Do Darksiders need OTHER people's fears to remain powerful?

VotF, chapter 31, pp. 505 wrote:"Finally, for reasons I still do not entirely understand, we made for a little backwater system not even important enough to make it onto most of the charts. A planet with nothing but swamps and dank forests and frozen slush."

"A planet named Dagobah."

Interesting. More understanding of Dagobah's place in the galaxy. It's known to some but isn't on most established charts.

VotF, chapter 31, pp. 505 wrote:"He was a jedi Master named Yoda. I don't know whether that was his home, or whether he had just flown in specially for the occassion. What I do know is that he was definitely waiting for us.

Given the timeline, Yoda was either fighting in the Clone Wars, or the CW were about to start in a few years. We know Yoda wasn't restricted solely to Dagobah thanks to the prequels, but even they have yet to explain its significance to the Jedi Master. Wait and see for ROTS? Maybe he'll tell us it's his homeworld.

VotF, chapter 31, pp. 505 wrote:An odd shiver ran through Car'das's think body. "I won't try to describe their battle." he said in a low voice. "Even after forty-five years of thinking about it, I'm not sure I can. (snip) At the end of it the Dark Jedi was dead, disintegrating in a final, massive blaze of blue fire."

NO MENTION OF THE CAVE. Car'das doesn't say they fought near the cave, or that 'blue fire' affected the landscape. The Cave, the Tree, none of it is mentioned.

Timeline: before, Leia gave a estimate of between 30-35 years. If you take the battle between Yoda and the Bpfasshi Jedi to occur during the Clone Wars, then taking place 31 years ago puts it around the same time as AOTC. Of course, records might be sketchy at best, and memories might be foggy. The battle could have taken place before the Clone Wars, and was just associated with it due to other, related incidents (CW comics has Mace Windu fight a traitorous Dark Jedi, and in the same comic Ventress turned one Jedi Padawan into fighting his friends. ref. "Jedi Knight: Mace Windu").

But according to Car'das, it was FORTY FIVE years ago. This would put it before AOTC. Now... maybe Car'das himself is misremembering. He is old, after all.

VotF, chapter 31, pp. 507 wrote:Karrde nodded, the last mystery of that beckon call lying abandoned in the Dagobah swamp suddenly falling into place. "And so you went back to Yoda and asked for help."

"Asked?" Car'das gave a short, self-deprecating laugh. "Not asked, Talon. Demanded."

He shook his head at the memory. "It must have looked quite absurd, really. There I stood, towering over himwith a blaster in one hand and my beckon call in the other, threatening to bring my ship and all its awesome weaponry to bear on this short, wizened creature leaning on a staff in front of me. Of course, I was the single-handed creator of the greatest smuggling organisation of all time, while he was nothing but a simple little Jedi Master." He shook his head again.

(...snip...)..."Instead, he simply took the beckon call and blaster away from me and sent them spinning off into the swamp, then held me suspended a few centimeters above the ground and let me scream and flail to my heart's content."

We finally learn through Karrde that the beckon call Luke found all those years ago in HttE in fact belonged to Car'das. He was wrong before in his speculation, which was all it was originally.

VotF, chapter 31, pp. 509 wrote:"Yoda couldn't heal me, you see. Or rather, didn't have the time the task would require. He told me he needed to prepare for what he said was possibly the most important instruction he had had for the past hundred years."

Karrde nodded, another piece of the puzzle falling into place. "Luke Skywalker."

NOT ONLY WAS LUKE WRONG, but the beckon call was there BEFORE HE FIRST ARRIVED ON DAGOBAH! Why didn't Artoo detect it, AND the blaster? Perhaps Artoo's sensors weren't on active scanning, and he was only passively scanning for, say, predators. But Artoo has initiative, he doesn't need Luke to tell him "Scan for electronics!" He's done things before on his own steam. But at the same time, there probably wasn't a need to scan for electrically signals, either in ESB or ROTJ.

To sum up: it was NOT stated in either the TTT or TTD that the battle with the Dark Jedi caused the cave in Dagobah to be tainted with the Dark Side. Car'das doesn't even say they FOUGHT NEAR A CAVE! Either in OR near! Sean Howard's theory makes AS MUCH sense. And don't forget, Yoda has canonically stated that the cave was strong in the Dark Side of the Force... without mentioning it was due to the death of a Dark Jedi from Bpfassh. Even Zahn doesn't state that, he makes you DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.

[EDIT] Some grammatical formatting for the quotes. Hopefully this will make it easier to read.

Significant because it implies that Dagobah wasn't an unknown world, it had at least some nominal contact with the rest of the Galaxy, even if people did not know its full significance as the safehouse of a Jedi in hiding.

How does this imply Dagobah wasn't a little known world? Leia offhandedly comments that a Dark Jedi made it to Dagobah. For all we know, the only reason that she knew where Dagobah was is that she (as a diplomat) probably studied the files on Bpfassh and saw the reference.

In fact, we find out much later that it isn't the Dark Jedi's, but somebody elses.

Yes, and in Vision of the Future we find out it belonged to Jorj Cardass, who's ship was hijacked by the Dark Jedi (so it was basicly stolen from him) with him aboard. And he WITNESSED the Dark Jedi die.

He's speculating, and there's no way to find out for sure that he's right. We know he's wrong about the beckon call, regardless. He could also be wrong about the cave. Why was the cave in question polluted by the Dark Jedi's presence? HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY STATE THAT THIS WAS THE CAUSE, ANYWAY. It may have been an EFFECT, i.e. the cave was evil before the battle, and the Dark Jedi's death exacerbated the environment like at Endor, but did not necessarily cause the cave to become evil.

He wasn't really wrong about the beckon call, since the dark jedi had stolen it. Besides, Yoda was trying to avoid distracting Luke- it's a lot easier to say, "That place is evil" than go through long winded distracting stories about how he killed a Dark Jedi.

your assertion that the cave came to be this way ISN'T supported by the Thrawn trilogy. Implied, perhaps.

Combining the Thrawn trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn duology, it is the MOST LIKELY solution.

We know a Dark Jedi died/was killed by Yoda in the cave, and we know that the place where a dark jedi died can leave 'stains' (even if their mind was transferred to another body, like Palpatine).

So, we have two options.

1) The Dark Jedi died in that cave and left a dark side stain.
2) The cave just somehow for no reason whatsoever came to be evil and infested with the dark side, at random.

By Occam's Razor, i'll go with #1.

Yoda said the cave was strong with the dark side, but he gave no indication of WHY. So this doesn't disprove Luke's theory in HttE. Yoda's comments in no way make it impossible for the cave to have become strong in the dark side due to a dark side user having died there.

But according to Car'das, it was FORTY FIVE years ago. This would put it before AOTC. Now... maybe Car'das himself is misremembering. He is old, after all.

That, and the fact that VotF occured ten years after HttE

Stofsk wrote:To sum up: it was NOT stated in either the TTT or TTD that the battle with the Dark Jedi caused the cave in Dagobah to be tainted with the Dark Side. Car'das doesn't even say they FOUGHT NEAR A CAVE! Either in OR near! Sean Howard's theory makes AS MUCH sense. And don't forget, Yoda has canonically stated that the cave was strong in the Dark Side of the Force... without mentioning it was due to the death of a Dark Jedi from Bpfassh. Even Zahn doesn't state that, he makes you DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.

So because Car'das doesn't come out and say "Yoda fought him near this cave," that's not the most likely conclusion? His inclusion of discrete landscape objects is in no way indicative of the likelihood of it's certainty.

Praxis wrote:How does this imply Dagobah wasn't a little known world? Leia offhandedly comments that a Dark Jedi made it to Dagobah. For all we know, the only reason that she knew where Dagobah was is that she (as a diplomat) probably studied the files on Bpfassh and saw the reference.

I wrote UNKNOWN WORLD, which Dagobah clearly is not. Leia knew about it, Car'das knew about it. It just wasn't important. It wasn't some ultra-secretive safehouse Yoda used during the purge.

Yes, and in Vision of the Future we find out it belonged to Jorj Cardass, who's ship was hijacked by the Dark Jedi (so it was basicly stolen from him) with him aboard. And he WITNESSED the Dark Jedi die.

And doesn't mention the cave, environment, or any particulars. Also, Car'das recovered the beckon, and lost it many years later when he returned to Dagobah.

He wasn't really wrong about the beckon call, since the dark jedi had stolen it.

False.

Besides, Yoda was trying to avoid distracting Luke- it's a lot easier to say, "That place is evil" than go through long winded distracting stories about how he killed a Dark Jedi.

Bullshit.

Combining the Thrawn trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn duology,

Good, because as my quotes from VotF show, it's STILL not stated.

We know a Dark Jedi died/was killed by Yoda in the cave, and we know that the place where a dark jedi died can leave 'stains' (even if their mind was transferred to another body, like Palpatine).

And yet the 'stain' may not be solely attributed to Palpatine. I already pointed this out.

1) The Dark Jedi died in that cave and left a dark side stain.

For about the millionith time, PROVE YOUR FUCKING ASSERTION. I've laboured providing quotes to this, and I've read NOTHING that says a) the cave was made evil by the Dark Jedi's death, and b) the Dark Jedi DIED IN THE CAVE.

But according to Car'das, it was FORTY FIVE years ago. This would put it before AOTC. Now... maybe Car'das himself is misremembering. He is old, after all.

That, and the fact that VotF occured ten years after HttE

I am aware of the time difference. it was either 30-35 years ago in HttE. If you take Car'das for his word and assume his memory is still good, then it would be 35 from HttE or 45 from VotF.

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:

Stofsk wrote:To sum up: it was NOT stated in either the TTT or TTD that the battle with the Dark Jedi caused the cave in Dagobah to be tainted with the Dark Side. Car'das doesn't even say they FOUGHT NEAR A CAVE! Either in OR near! Sean Howard's theory makes AS MUCH sense. And don't forget, Yoda has canonically stated that the cave was strong in the Dark Side of the Force... without mentioning it was due to the death of a Dark Jedi from Bpfassh. Even Zahn doesn't state that, he makes you DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.

So because Car'das doesn't come out and say "Yoda fought him near this cave," that's not the most likely conclusion? His inclusion of discrete landscape objects is in no way indicative of the likelihood of it's certainty.

Actually, Car'das DOES state that the dark jedi tossed his beckon call device into the swamp with the force. Luke found this beckon call device in the cave. Therefore we must assume that this battle was in front of the cave, unless you want to assume the Dark Jedi tossed the beckon call miles away So Car'das DOES give us an idea of where they were, which makes it even more likely.

Thanks for the comment, Stormie of Death, you reminded me of this

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:So because Car'das doesn't come out and say "Yoda fought him near this cave," that's not the most likely conclusion? His inclusion of discrete landscape objects is in no way indicative of the likelihood of it's certainty.

So when you assume evidence for a conclusion, this makes the conclusion right?

I love it when you lot jump on Sean Howard, who comes up with a new and interesting theory, and call it wrong and trumpet your own theory which in ITSELF isn't confirmed from other sources. Too bad to break it to, but the Dark Jedi MAY NOT HAVE DIED IN THE CAVE - we just don't know. So why assume that his death was the CAUSE of the Cave's evil?

Praxis wrote:Actually, Car'das DOES state that the dark jedi tossed his beckon call device into the swamp with the force.

You fucking liar, that was YODA! I fucking quoted the goddamn passage! It makes no mention of the Dark Jedi even HAVING the beckon call during the battle!

I wrote UNKNOWN WORLD, which Dagobah clearly is not. Leia knew about it, Car'das knew about it. It just wasn't important. It wasn't some ultra-secretive safehouse Yoda used during the purge.

Leia knew about it because she had been studying the history of Bpfassh. Car'das knew about it because that's where the Dark Jedi took him- he SPECIFICLY stated that it was a backwater planet that wasn't even on most charts. He likely wouldn't have known about it if the dark jedi hadn't made him go there.

And doesn't mention the cave, environment, or any particulars. Also, Car'das recovered the beckon, and lost it many years later when he returned to Dagobah.

Okay, I don't remember this bit. When did he return to dagobah, why did he leave it there again, and why in the dark side cave?

EDIT: While I was posting this, you replied and told me. However, it is stated that Yoda tossed it in the swamp (or we know now, the dark side cave). When he returned to find the Jedi, wouldn't you think he'd go where he last saw the Jedi? Wouldn't that be the site of the battle? Therefore, he'd still have landed where the battle had been, and since that was in front of the cave, the battle must have been in front of the cave.

And yet the 'stain' may not be solely attributed to Palpatine. I already pointed this out.

Yet your explanation makes no sense. If Leia was sensing the fear of the Ewoks, why did she ONLY sense it when she passed through where the Death Star had been, instead of anywhere else above endor? She would have sensed it from anywhere above the planet since she was always at the same altitude, being in orbit.

For about the millionith time, PROVE YOUR FUCKING ASSERTION. I've laboured providing quotes to this, and I've read NOTHING that says a) the cave was made evil by the Dark Jedi's death, and b) the Dark Jedi DIED IN THE CAVE.

Well, first of all, Luke's theory (don't discount force insights) was just that. He felt the dark jedi must have died in that cave. That implies he sensed something there, possibly someone's death or emotions.

Secondly, Car'das lost his beckon call by the cave after the dark jedi tossed it there, implying they were by the cave.
EDIT: Again, misread earlier, however, as seen in my above post, it is still likely they were by the cave.

Thirdly, we know that Yoda killed the Dark Jedi there on Dagobah, and from my previous statement it was likely by the cave.

Fourthly, we know dead Dark Jedi leave stains of their presence (see my refutation above relating to Palpatine).

Stofsk wrote:

Praxis wrote:Actually, Car'das DOES state that the dark jedi tossed his beckon call device into the swamp with the force.

You fucking liar, that was YODA! I fucking quoted the goddamn passage! It makes no mention of the Dark Jedi even HAVING the beckon call during the battle!

Having just re-read the passage, you're right on that (I was not lying, I misread, trying to type a quick reply. Errors happen. I thought it was building on the previous post that had just finished describing the battle between Yoda and the Dark Jedi).

Still- Car'das would likely have landed where he remembered the battle being. Yoda tossed his beakon away, into the cave. Since the place he landed would be where the battle had been, my point (re-worded) still stands- the battle must have taken place in front of the cave.

I will edit my previous post (the big one) right away, but you may reply to it before I finish editting it, so don't start calling me a liar till I fix it

Done. I await your response. *bow*

Sean Howard wrote:Ok, I've been reading on this board about this cave and various theories about how it got "posessed" by the dark side.

I must say my interpretation differs somewhat, but keep in mind that I have read little EU.

I always thought the whole thing was just Yoda playing with Luke's head, sending him on a Force LSD self-discovery trip. I never actually thought of the cave itself as being significant. When Yoda says "that place is strong with the dark side", I thought he was referring to Luke's feelings of cold. Cold as in despair, fear, etc.

I always thought the whole thing was metaphorical, I don't get "those trees over there are evil" out of it at all.

First off, welcome to SDnet.

Secondly, while I commend you for your new insight into the matter, I have to say that it isn't easy to prove. Yoda states that the place is evil and strong with the Dark Side of the Force. We have no reason to doubt him on it. If you think of one, please voice it. How it came to be strong in the Dark Side is, obviously, open to heated contention. For myself, I personally think that the EU events with the Dark Jedi from Bpfassh is strongly implicated in having something to do with it, but for all we know the cave was already evil before either one came to Dagobah.

What I like most about your idea is that Luke's duel with the apparition was a product of Yoda deliberately messing with his mind. You will face only what you take in with you. Your weapons, you will not need them. How would Yoda know he would not need a weapon?

Maybe he made an illusion of Vader (its a Force power, at least in the RPG and some EU sources) and wanted Luke to use Force-enhanced senses to see through it? Maybe it was a Force vision, inspired by the Dark Side (this is what seems to be the established reason in the novelisation, at least in Luke's ruminations)?

[EDIT] Changed a word to fit what I actually meant.

Praxis wrote:

And doesn't mention the cave, environment, or any particulars. Also, Car'das recovered the beckon, and lost it many years later when he returned to Dagobah.

Okay, I don't remember this bit. When did he return to dagobah, why did he leave it there again, and why in the dark side cave?

EDIT: While I was posting this, you replied and told me. However, it is stated that Yoda tossed it in the swamp (or we know now, the dark side cave). When he returned to find the Jedi, wouldn't you think he'd go where he last saw the Jedi? Wouldn't that be the site of the battle? Therefore, he'd still have landed where the battle had been, and since that was in front of the cave, the battle must have been in front of the cave.

First: on what basis does Car'das use to assume Yoda is still on Dagobah? It was a big 'if' to make. Its possible that Yoda directed Car'das to him, anyway, making the landing spot coincidentally near the Tree and Cave. The same thing is what likely happened to Luke the first time he came.

Second: The site of the battle was fairly extensive, given the length of it. Car'das described it lasting "a day and a half." (pp. 505) I have trouble imagining a battle between two powerful Jedi lasting that long in one location, particularly a small and cramped environment, where Yoda couldn't do many stupid flips and wall-bounces.

Thirdly: Car'das didn't just stick around for a day and a half eating popcorn and watching a Jedi duel. He was grievously injured thanks to the Dark Jedi's tender touches, and he needed to be healed by Yoda. He describes this on pp. 506.

Now, why would the Cave be where Car'das last remembered seeing Yoda before he returned in the ESB timeframe? He had to be healed for a long time, logically it would be in a place of comfort. If not for the Prequels I would have automatically thought it would be Yoda's hut. (unless Yoda maintains a holiday hut on Dagobah over the centuries, and happened to be on vacation when the Dark Jedi came a-knockin', or ROTS says something about Dagobah and why Yoda went there)

Really, this doesn't prove the cave was the location of the final battle.

And yet the 'stain' may not be solely attributed to Palpatine. I already pointed this out.

Yet your explanation makes no sense. If Leia was sensing the fear of the Ewoks, why did she ONLY sense it when she passed through where the Death Star had been, instead of anywhere else above endor? She would have sensed it from anywhere above the planet since she was always at the same altitude, being in orbit.

I actually consider Palpatine's death in addition to the Endor holocaust in creating this Dark Side nexus.

Well, first of all, Luke's theory (don't discount force insights) was just that. He felt the dark jedi must have died in that cave. That implies he sensed something there, possibly someone's death or emotions.

I would say he merely assumes that. It could be a force insight, but there's no way to tell for certain.

Secondly, Car'das lost his beckon call by the cave after the dark jedi tossed it there, implying they were by the cave.
EDIT: Again, misread earlier, however, as seen in my above post, it is still likely they were by the cave.

Perhaps. I called you a liar a little hastily, and for that I apologize.. After going through that much work I had hoped it would receive recognition. From my perspective it seemed like you were ignoring it.

Thirdly, we know that Yoda killed the Dark Jedi there on Dagobah, and from my previous statement it was likely by the cave.

The location is simply put, not known. We don't know if they fought in, near to, next to, above, or some distance from, the cave. We do know that the battle lasted a long time, which might mean both combatants moved a great deal. It might very well have ended in the cave, or next to it. But we'd be guessing.

Fourthly, we know dead Dark Jedi leave stains of their presence (see my refutation above relating to Palpatine).

Not disputed. In all likelihood the Dark Jedi did indeed die in or near the cave, but I don't think this was the sole cause of it becoming tainted with the Dark Side of the Force. But I still feel Yoda would have mentioned it to Luke at some point. Like say "If you take in with you the aggressions other have in the past, twisted will your fate be, with the Dark Side" or some other cold shit like that. I still think its out in the open.

What I wanted to do with this thread is get you to think about this theory of yours a little critically. Having evidence from text or other sources greatly increases the credibility of the theory. And this thread wasn't about your theory, remember, but about Sean Howar'd opening post.

All right, you got me on a few of those points.

So, the final conclusion:

There is no conclusive facts to either side- either of us could be incorrect, either could be correct. Both theories fit with canon and EU.

Personally, I still perfer my theory- the Force always seemed to me as an energy field (as explained by Obi-wan in the OT), which can be weilded to light and dark, rather than light and dark forces of the universe. But neither of us can prove the other wrong.

I'm not sure of its overall worth, but the SW.com databank says this in the EU portion of the Dagobah enrty:

Years ago, a group of Jedi in the neighboring Bpfasshi star system went rogue and succumbed to the dark side. Jedi Masters were sent to stop the Dark Jedi insurrection, and one of the fallen Jedi escaped to Dagobah. There in the swamps, the Jedi Master Yoda and the Bpfasshi Dark Jedi fought a terrible battle. The Dark Jedi was killed, and the local flora absorbed his twisted energies.

It doesn't specifically mention the cave, but what other place do we know of that contained what could be described as "twisted energies?"

Sean Howard wrote:Ok, I've been reading on this board about this cave and various theories about how it got "posessed" by the dark side.

I must say my interpretation differs somewhat, but keep in mind that I have read little EU.

I always thought the whole thing was just Yoda playing with Luke's head, sending him on a Force LSD self-discovery trip. I never actually thought of the cave itself as being significant. When Yoda says "that place is strong with the dark side", I thought he was referring to Luke's feelings of cold. Cold as in despair, fear, etc.

Well, this would be a good theory to fit the original trilogy. HOWEVER, when Luke returned to this cave 5 years later in Heir to the Empire, he had another vision (this one of a possible past, had Mara Jade not been forced to stay behind by Jabba the Hutt, she would have killed him on the Sail Barge) and still sensed the darkness. Since Yoda was long dead, it couldn't have been him. Sorry

I always thought the whole thing was metaphorical, I don't get "those trees over there are evil" out of it at all.

Me neither, which is why I go for the Dark Jedi's death theory.

Well, this would be a good theory to fit the original trilogy. HOWEVER, when Luke returned to this cave 5 years later in Heir to the Empire, he had another vision (this one of a possible past, had Mara Jade not been forced to stay behind by Jabba the Hutt, she would have killed him on the Sail Barge) and still sensed the darkness. Since Yoda was long dead, it couldn't have been him. Sorry

Although luke does have the power to see visions on his own, so if yoda just tricked him into thinking the cave was special he might conjure up his own visions automatically with the cave as a kind if placebo.

Good point about Yoda being dead, but we do know he exists as a Jedi spirit.

What if he can give Luke visions from beyond the grave? Any evidence for that? Curious...