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172.186.156.235 wrote: Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy explains that the Rebel Alliance created a barrier between the falling debris and the Endor moon with deflector shields and tractor beams. The remaining debris did little damage to the moon's surface

So what exactly was said? I want to know so I can consider whether to set out and correct these people or not. Allowing different opinions to co-exist is one thing, letting them leave this shit on the page is NOT.

Or maybe someone else can do it...

Just say it's utterly false. ITW does NOT say that the remaining debris did little damage to the moon's surface, so the fucker is lying. It only says this:

The Aftermath of Victory

The explosion of the second Death Star sent a rain of meteoric debris toward the forest moon, but the Rebel fleet was able to deploy shields and tractor beams to deflect debris away from their strike team on the surface.

How does this match to the very dispersed line (viewed from the DS) formation seen in the movie?

I hope I didn't do something against the rules over there by making the following modification:

LotF wrote:<INCORRECT> Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy explains that the Rebel Alliance created a barrier between the falling debris and the Endor moon with deflector shields and tractor beams. The remaining debris did little damage to the moon's surface. </INCORRECT>

The information concerning the Endor Holocaust from "Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy" describe how the Rebels had managed to use shields and tractor beams to protect their strike team on Endor, but by implication (supported by the title of "The Aftermath of Victory") dooming the rest of the forest moon to the holocaust.

Lord of the Farce wrote:I hope I didn't do something against the rules over there by making the following modification:

LotF wrote:<INCORRECT> Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy explains that the Rebel Alliance created a barrier between the falling debris and the Endor moon with deflector shields and tractor beams. The remaining debris did little damage to the moon's surface. </INCORRECT>

The information concerning the Endor Holocaust from "Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy" describe how the Rebels had managed to use shields and tractor beams to protect their strike team on Endor, but by implication (supported by the title of "The Aftermath of Victory") dooming the rest of the forest moon to the holocaust.

I suggest you just use strikeouts (<s></s>) rather than INCORRECT.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Lord of the Farce wrote:I hope I didn't do something against the rules over there by making the following modification:
-snip

I suggest you just use strikeouts (<s></s>) rather than INCORRECT.

Cool...

It would be better to just remove or rewrite the incorrect part.

Edit: I decided to do it myself.

I just added a tinge. If someone could go and quickly check to see I didn't "trample" over the anti-Holocaust viewpoint completely.

Using strikeout or placing something as <incorrect> is a good way to start a war on Wikipedia. Its best to edit a post and explain why, and possible add something in the discussion section.

phongn wrote:Using strikeout or placing something as <incorrect> is a good way to start a war on Wikipedia. Its best to edit a post and explain why, and possible add something in the discussion section.

OK. Sorry, I skimmed over the theoretical rules, but didn't know the practical rules yet.

You may have seen the war on the SSD page and that's how you do it. Edit, explain, and if the other guy keeps doing it start calling them a tool on the discussion page

vakundok wrote:How does this match to the very dispersed line (viewed from the DS) formation seen in the movie?

All they had to do was protect a tiny area on the surface of the moon.

phongn wrote:You may have seen the war on the SSD page and that's how you do it. Edit, explain, and if the other guy keeps doing it start calling them a tool on the discussion page

Well, Phong, since you seem to be the most experienced Wikipedia editor around here, perhaps we'd just tell you when we edit something related to ST or SW, and when you are free, you can come around and help us a bit with making it Wiki-presentable. Thanks.

The ITW book isn't very explicit about what happens. It does alot of hinting, but the phrasing is very open ended, which is why some people (IE Pablo) managed to make it sound like nothing happened to Endor.
I know most people here like to think the ITW book "ended" the discussion on the Endor Holocaust, but I continually fail to see where this "concluisve" proof is.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The ITW book isn't very explicit about what happens. It does alot of hinting, but the phrasing is very open ended, which is why some people (IE Pablo) managed to make it sound like nothing happened to Endor.
I know most people here like to think the ITW book "ended" the discussion on the Endor Holocaust, but I continually fail to see where this "concluisve" proof is.

If Saxton had his way, he would likely have said "Endor was a depopulated wasteland." I guess they must have forced him to softsoap and leave a gap (kind of like the "under 12 times" thing, which technically leaves room for their branfucktarded 8 times length).

Still, in that quote, the ITW:
1) Ensured that a lethal quantity of debris was heading towards Endor, not sucked by some stupid wormhole that won't work.
2) Strongly that the Rebel fleet was able only to defend a tiny area (no one sane can read that and conclude that they protected the whole moon).

In any case, there really was no debate to begin with, if you ask me (I am pro-Holocaust which is not so rare, the rarity is in how I like the Holocaust too - it is not only realistic, it brings some much needed depth to ROTJ and paints a realistic dark layer onto the Rebel Alliance for conning the poor Ewoks into getting their world towards a painful end). In the absence of a workable theory to save Endor, it is a direct roll between G-canon and C-canon, and we know who wins there.

And I really don't buy that "Lucas never intended it" thing. Unless Lucas was so dumb he won't be intelligent enough to have intent. He can't possibly have intelligence and think that he can blow up this armed moon so close to his beloved planet and think nothing bad would happen. I'm sure he must have heard of nuclear winter, or of how the dinosaurs died out from the asteroids.

Personally, if Lucas intended something, I think this is the second layer thing.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: If Saxton had his way, he would likely have said "Endor was a depopulated wasteland." I guess they must have forced him to softsoap and leave a gap (kind of like the "under 12 times" thing, which technically leaves room for their branfucktarded 8 times length).

Perhaps, but that doesn't help those of you who support Saxton's position that the Holocaust actually occured, does it?

As for the Executor-length thing, its already been nitpicked. Someone tried claiming that the length ratio applied to a Victory-class (even though even in the EU the Victory class has been replaced by the ISD as the "common" warship.)

Still, in that quote, the ITW:
1) Ensured that a lethal quantity of debris was heading towards Endor, not sucked by some stupid wormhole that won't work.

The quote under the "Aftermath of Victory" heading does not specify that the debris was "lethal." It just specifies it goes to Endor.

And while you are correct that no stupid "hyperspace wormhole" appears (which wouldn't work anyhow, even though we have Dark Empire to thank for the wormhole crap.), it doesn't indicate that the planet was devastated. In fact, the quote can be interpreted (more simply) to suggest that the Rebel Fleet saved Endor, even if that wasn't the intent (which it obviously wasn't.)

2) Strongly that the Rebel fleet was able only to defend a tiny area (no one sane can read that and conclude that they protected the whole moon).

"The explosion of the second Death Star sent a rain of meteoric debris toward the forest moon, but the Rebel fleet was able to deploy shields and tractor beams to deflect debris away from the strike team on the surface."

Nothing in the quote specifies just how large an area was protected, though. Again, its not nearly as concrete as you appear to think it is.

In any case, there really was no debate to begin with, if you ask me (I am pro-Holocaust which is not so rare, the rarity is in how I like the Holocaust too - it is not only realistic, it brings some much needed depth to ROTJ and paints a realistic dark layer onto the Rebel Alliance for conning the poor Ewoks into getting their world towards a painful end). In the absence of a workable theory to save Endor, it is a direct roll between G-canon and C-canon, and we know who wins there.

Actually I can think of some problems with the theory, which is one of the reasons why I think that as it stands it doesn't work very well. For example, considering the amount of energy present in the Death Star (particularily the quantity specified in the ITW book itself) , as well as the mass and velocity of the debris involved.. why was the planet not immediately wiped out? Even if they could shield direct impacts, indirect ones would have had catastrophic if not fatal events. And remember they were present for hours at least after the explosion.

And I really don't buy that "Lucas never intended it" thing. Unless Lucas was so dumb he won't be intelligent enough to have intent. He can't possibly have intelligence and think that he can blow up this armed moon so close to his beloved planet and think nothing bad would happen. I'm sure he must have heard of nuclear winter, or of how the dinosaurs died out from the asteroids.

You do realize that the Death Star in all probability released enough energy to inflict a mass-extinction event on Endor many times over, right? I consider the short term consequences that should occur to be a bigger problem than any long term ones, even though it seems the long term ones like nuclear winter effects, global pollution, and atmospheric dust loading tend to get more readily mentioned. In all liklihood there should have been NO survivors at all, and that includes the strike team, much less anyone sent down to have a celebration.

There are actually a few ways to indirectly attack the notion that nothing happened to Endor in conjunction with the EU (population differences between ROTJ era and Thrawn Era, the effects of the Death Star 2 in orbit around the moon, ,etc.) But I personally find it just as difficult to believe that you could have a 900 km battlestation blow up within low orbit of a planetary body, rain down debris at a velocity many many times greater than the moon's escape velocity, and have anyone survive that, much less be totally oblivious to it even minutes after the fact, much less hours after.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Perhaps, but that doesn't help those of you who support Saxton's position that the Holocaust actually occured, does it?

As for the Executor-length thing, its already been nitpicked. Someone tried claiming that the length ratio applied to a Victory-class (even though even in the EU the Victory class has been replaced by the ISD as the "common" warship.)

I know. Which is what I meant by soft-soaping. As for that gang, I don't understand it. They seem more interested in saying "It ain't 17.6" than matching up with their own numbers (12.8 or anymore. It seems like they aren't even pro-WEG anymore. They are just pure anti-Saxton.

The quote under the "Aftermath of Victory" heading does not specify that the debris was "lethal." It just specifies it goes to Endor.

Well, we can see how much debris there was and can estimate it. if the debris is flying to Endor, it's screwed.

In fact, the quote can be interpreted (more simply) to suggest that the Rebel Fleet saved Endor, even if that wasn't the intent (which it obviously wasn't.)

You see "They deflected it away from their team" and think "They got it all the way off the moon?"

Nothing in the quote specifies just how large an area was protected, though. Again, its not nearly as concrete as you appear to think it is.

I didn't say it was concrete. I said it definitely didn't say the moon, or even most of it was spared. Lower limit thinking in fact says that they spared that 10 or so km radius circle that we can see, and that's it.

You do realize that the Death Star in all probability released enough energy to inflict a mass-extinction event on Endor many times over, right?

Yup, if it was marginal, I doubt Saxton would have screamed.

But I personally find it just as difficult to believe that you could have a 900 km battlestation blow up within low orbit of a planetary body, rain down debris at a velocity many many times greater than the moon's escape velocity, and have anyone survive that, much less be totally oblivious to it even minutes after the fact, much less hours after.

So what you are basically saying is that we both agree the planet is screwed, just that realistically, you think the planet should have been screwed even faster.

You may have a point there. I'd have to think about this a little to try and come up with something (that at least a small region was reasonably spared for a few hours is G-canon, and we have to make an effort to G-canon).

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

phongn wrote:You may have seen the war on the SSD page and that's how you do it. Edit, explain, and if the other guy keeps doing it start calling them a tool on the discussion page

Well, Phong, since you seem to be the most experienced Wikipedia editor around here, perhaps we'd just tell you when we edit something related to ST or SW, and when you are free, you can come around and help us a bit with making it Wiki-presentable. Thanks.

It is fairly simple: try to be objective and dispassionate. Don't act as if you're hanging onto every word Dr. Saxton writes or considering everything he has is gospel.

I often present multiple viewpoints (I used to have one on the Imperator page about the mess between the Imperial/Imperator mess before it got nuked in one of the wars between pro-Saxton and pro-EU fans) as well. I believe the reader should get as much information as possible to make his conclusion on such matters. If that includes a discussion on why Imperial may be a valid name, so be it.

Finally, I try not to put fan estimates in unless specifically noted (someone put part of the Marina Calcs in the SSD page as if it were completely canon).

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:[
I know. Which is what I meant by soft-soaping. As for that gang, I don't understand it. They seem more interested in saying "It ain't 17.6" than matching up with their own numbers (12.8 or anymore. It seems like they aren't even pro-WEG anymore. They are just pure anti-Saxton.

at least some are. I suspect that they're either allying with or using some of those who "defend" the EU as well as enlisting whatever aid they can get from the disinterested masses in their crusade against The Saxton. We already know they aren't above spin doctoring and manipulation already to achieve their ends.

Well, we can see how much debris there was and can estimate it. if the debris is flying to Endor, it's screwed.

Sort of, but the only people who will accept that are those with some measure of understanding of the methodology. Which in most cases means only those already convinced of it.

You see "They deflected it away from their team" and think "They got it all the way off the moon?"

That's one way it can be interpreted, yes. And technically they don't have to deflect it from the entire moon, just hte portion facing the Death Star.

As I said, its not specific enough to encourage one defintion over another, at least not without a healthy does of nitpicking on either side.

I didn't say it was concrete. I said it definitely didn't say the moon, or even most of it was spared. Lower limit thinking in fact says that they spared that 10 or so km radius circle that we can see, and that's it.

It doesn't give ANY indication of what is spared. You can interpret it to mean "a small area", but that doesnt really help argue for the Holocaust any more than it argues against it, does it?

Yup, if it was marginal, I doubt Saxton would have screamed.

So where did all the energy go? We're talking something on the order of at LEAST e28 to e30 joules of energy.. literally many orders of magnitude more energy than is needed to render the planet uninhabitable. If the Rebel fleet can only deflect a tiny portion of the mass, that also means they can only deflect a tiny portion of the energy, too. Which in that case means that the rest that was directed at the planet, hit the planet.

So what you are basically saying is that we both agree the planet is screwed, just that realistically, you think the planet should have been screwed even faster.

Yes, its a matter of degree. I can buy that the planet would be doomed due to "long term" consequences than I can to the short term, because insofar as I can tell, the short term consequences should render the long term consequences meaningless. As I said before, all that energy has to go somewhere, don't you think?

You may have a point there. I'd have to think about this a little to try and come up with something (that at least a small region was reasonably spared for a few hours is G-canon, and we have to make an effort to G-canon).

Its not that difficult, I think. The ITW book mentions a repulsor being present on the moon prior to the DS2's own repulsors being active. Its possible they slowed or stopped the debris long enough to prevent an immediately fatal impact (by my estimates, that given the distance and velocity indicated, the debris should have reached the planet just about when Han and Leia were kissing, or a bit after.) Its possible or even probable that this devicee was not destroyed when the shield generator was (the ITW book says that complex was 70 km in diamater - the blast was clearly not destructive enough to take it ALL out, since Han could be less than 100 meters away without getting fried by the blast.)

Alternately, if the planet was covered by an entire "planetary shield" network like the ROTJ novel indicates, we might consider that the shield generator complex they knocked out was the primary, but that there was at least one backup and the Rebels managed to activate that and partially screen the planet from the immediate consequences.

Either way would avert the short term consequences, but not the long term ones.

As a side benefit, by delaying the "extinction event" thing, one can also suggest that the Rebels might have been able to evacuate most of the Ewoks off the planet (or at least a substantial number than a few hundred.) Which might definitely turn aside alot of the resistance to the Endor Holocaust, since as I've tended to observe, most people object because they don't think the Rebels would be that "evil" or do nothing to save the Ewoks. And all that really matters is what happens to the planet itself.

Incidentally, under "destructive might" from the ITW: OT book:

"The Death Star II is not parked in a naturally synchronous orbit above the Forest Moon, so remaining over one point on the moon's surface requires a considerable uplift force against Endor's gravity. Initially, the station was supported by a repulsorlift field projected from the same ground facility that would eventually supply the station with its defensive shield. Tales told by Ewok shamans relate that the extra weight on the moon's crust had dramatic side-effects, including massive groundquakes, land that shifted and buckled, and lakes that sippled out of their natural basins."

The good part is that it suggests that simply orbiting the planet had nasty side effects, which could imply worse... but the fact that Ewok shaman(s) apparently lived to tell the tales about this does suggest that a more substantial population also survived (which might be interpreted to say that the Ewoks survived.)

A bit farther down it says that the Emperor planned to destroy Endor as he had Despayre and Alderaan (IE mass scattering at least at escape velocity, if not at the speeds witnessed with Alderaan.) and that the power generation capabilities to achieve this would be equivalent to "hundreds of super-giant stars."

BTW, that G-level canon crap sucks ass and is annoying as hell to deal with. I prefer dealign with the old "Canon/official" hierarchy.

I also suppose its worthwhile mentioning that according to the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook from WEG, Endor's population (at least as of that time) is 10 million. The ITW:OT book places the population at about 30 million (suggesting that something happened to a convenient 2/3 of the population.)

In any case, there really was no debate to begin with, if you ask me (I am pro-Holocaust which is not so rare, the rarity is in how I like the Holocaust too - it is not only realistic, it brings some much needed depth to ROTJ and paints a realistic dark layer onto the Rebel Alliance for conning the poor Ewoks into getting their world towards a painful end).

Not that this isn't preferable to having Endor destroyed by the Death Star anyway followed by God knows how many other worlds afterwards. It sucks, but they were all going to die anyway.

Would it be reasonable to say we need to propose some way to explain the DS II explosion? If I understand correctly the DS should have been containing nearly 1E38 J in preparation of its killing shot to Endor. All the physics I know suggests violently releasing this should have flash vaporized the DS and irradiated (read, flash boiled the surface, maybe more) Endor within small fractions of a second.

The DS is made of impressive materials, but I find it really hard to believe it absorbed (essentially) 100% of that energy in its destruction. I could care less about the debris, the expanding sphere of electromagnetic death is much more lethal--or it would have been, had there been one. The Falcon should have evaporated into space along with the rest of the fleet (Falcon I am sure about, the fleet may have been far enough away to handle the intensity--I have not done the calculations yet), the strike team would never know they were dead, and so on.

Instead the explosion is impressive only because it is big--it is not especially brilliant in color, there is much debris, and the pre-explosions seem more flame-like than super heated angry plasma.

Has explaining this ever really been attempted? IIRC Saxton mentions x-rays that should have been there, but really now, x-rays should have been the teams least worry...
Obviously the debris is present and the irradiation is not, but am I alone in thinking explaining the first may be just as important?

Connor MacLeod wrote:Sort of, but the only people who will accept that are those with some measure of understanding of the methodology. Which in most cases means only those already convinced of it.

The funny thing is that everyone actually seems to understand that Endor should have died. Just that for some reason people seem to throw the hierarchy out the window for this case.

That's one way it can be interpreted, yes. And technically they don't have to deflect it from the entire moon, just hte portion facing the Death Star.

You know what I meant. If they got it off the portion facing the Death Star entirely, they got it off the moon. You are just stupidly twisting the quote, almost as if saying "under 12 miles" means the Executor can be one mile long.

So where did all the energy go? We're talking something on the order of at LEAST e28 to e30 joules of energy.. literally many orders of magnitude more energy than is needed to render the planet uninhabitable. If the Rebel fleet can only deflect a tiny portion of the mass, that also means they can only deflect a tiny portion of the energy, too. Which in that case means that the rest that was directed at the planet, hit the planet.

The only feeble explanations that immediately come to mind is:
1) The Death Star II is actually a very safe design, and in the event of an emergency can vent most of its energy in a harmless form, like neutrinos. It certainly had some to make such conversions than the DSI (you could see the destructive wave)
2) As part of the design, virtually all of the remaining energy is designed to be absorbed into the surrounding material with nearly perfect efficiency, thus the KE is it (after all, even air can absorb gamma rays after a short distance, creating the blast wave). One may be amazed at the efficiency of all this, but then, one has to be amazed at the efficiency of Imperial equipment in using unbelievable amounts of power and not let the tiny inefficiency in transfer bake themselves to death.

Its possible or even probable that this devicee was not destroyed when the shield generator was (the ITW book says that complex was 70 km in diamater - the blast was clearly not destructive enough to take it ALL out, since Han could be less than 100 meters away without getting fried by the blast.)

That complex was 70km in diameter?

Alternately, if the planet was covered by an entire "planetary shield" network like the ROTJ novel indicates, we might consider that the shield generator complex they knocked out was the primary, but that there was at least one backup and the Rebels managed to activate that and partially screen the planet from the immediate consequences.

We discussed this one two years ago, and there wasn't a network in evidence. Let's try the repulsor delay idea for now.

As a side benefit, by delaying the "extinction event" thing, one can also suggest that the Rebels might have been able to evacuate most of the Ewoks off the planet (or at least a substantial number than a few hundred.) Which might definitely turn aside alot of the resistance to the Endor Holocaust, since as I've tended to observe, most people object because they don't think the Rebels would be that "evil" or do nothing to save the Ewoks. And all that really matters is what happens to the planet itself.

I know. I just can't understand this mentality either. Why must be Rebels be completely white and pure?