"Only a Fully Trained Jedi Knight..."

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-23 08:43pm

Yoda states that only a fully trained Jedi Knight can defeat Vader and his Emperor. But weren't there thousands of trained Jedi Knights at the time of the purge? Didn't seem like their training did them much good. Or is it possible that a deep suspicion I've had about the purge as it will be portrayed in the movie is that most if not all the trained Jedi and their padawans are killed in a single event, say a bombing thus making this statement true in a sense. In the same vein that Yoda beng Obi Wan's teacher was true in GL's retconning in TPM.

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2004-10-23 09:16pm

Stravo wrote:Yoda states that only a fully trained Jedi Knight can defeat Vader and his Emperor. But weren't there thousands of trained Jedi Knights at the time of the purge? Didn't seem like their training did them much good.

It may be the case that his intended meaning was simply that Luke falls short of trained Jedi standards. The supposition that a normal trained Jedi has little chance against Vader is completely compatible with having anyone that fails to meet their standards having no chance at all.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-23 10:40pm

Also, Yoda and Ben would have, by that point in time, have had 19 years to ponder what training exercises would be needed to forge Luke into the ultamite Jedi and which ones from the Old Order would have been null and void.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-10-23 11:49pm

youd think yoda watching 800 yrs of jedi might have helped him on that

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-24 12:05am

Enforcer Talen wrote:youd think yoda watching 800 yrs of jedi might have helped him on that

Well, take into account Palpatine's words to Luke in ROTJ:

"Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side."

Now, while it is a fine example of Palpatine's hubris and ego at work, it also is a reminder that the Jedi only went so far in their understanding and experimentation of the Force, something that Vergere and Luke would touch on during the latter stages of the NJO.

The Sith on the other hand were not afraid to branch out and discover new ways to use and channel Force energy. I assume, if the rumors are true, that Yoda will learn this the hard way during ROTS. Therefore, the key for the Jedi Master is to decide upon techniques that can be used against the Empire, but do not closely brush the Dark Side.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-10-24 12:20am

Luke "How am I suppost to know the good side from the bad side?"

Yoda "When your calm, at peace."

I think this bit of dialouge is the answer. A fully trained Jedi is more than martial training. Lightsaber and combat Force tricks. A fully trained Jedi is centered and in tune with the Force.

The risk of Luke running out and facing Vader, let alone Palpatine, before he was ready was Luke succuming to the darkside to do what he felt was good, and thus starting his path on the dark side.

The fact that at the end, in RotJ, Luke does not succumb to the Dark Side and is fully willing to let Palpatine kill him rather than turn shows that in certain respects, Luke has achieved that level of inner peace or centerness or what ever.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2004-10-24 03:03pm

I was going to post the same thing as Knife. I thought the sentiment was that he needed to be fully trained or he would be turned to the darkside.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-24 03:29pm

One wonders why Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't join together to fight the Emperor. Does being an elderly person really make it that hard to fight? ("I'm getting too old for this sort of thing" vs. Yoda in AOTC) Or do they just recognize the potential in Luke and possibly a tie-in to Prophecy?

I can understand the two Jedi being too depressed and scared after what happened to their 10,000 colleagues a few decades ago though...

Sunstreaker · Post by **Sunstreaker** » 2004-10-24 04:15pm

You're missing the point dude. Someone with no mastery of the force has no quantifiable chance of facing Vader and the Emperor let alone stopping them. But a Jedi will have some chance of facing them and ending their rule.

Maybe Ep3 will show us why Obi and Yoda weren't capable of stopping the dynamic dark duo when they were younger.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-10-24 04:33pm

Neither Yoda nor Obi Wan could turn Vader. Luke could.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2004-10-24 05:05pm

Maybe Ep3 will show us why Obi and Yoda weren't capable of stopping the dynamic dark duo when they were younger.

I doubt it, but it seems obvious- Palpatine was a trained Sith(probably taken as a young child, too, and returned later), and, as can be seen, can hide his power. Anakin, from what it seems in Episode 2, saw Obi and Yoda as "part of the problem" or as holding him back.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-24 05:25pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:
Maybe Ep3 will show us why Obi and Yoda weren't capable of stopping the dynamic dark duo when they were younger.
I doubt it, but it seems obvious- Palpatine was a trained Sith(probably taken as a young child, too, and returned later), and, as can be seen, can hide his power. Anakin, from what it seems in Episode 2, saw Obi and Yoda as "part of the problem" or as holding him back.

Part of this will all depend on the revelations made in ROTS about Palpatine/Sidious's origins, if Sidious' master infiltrated Palpatine's household (this would be a great addition to Cloak of Deception, to focus further on Palpatine's origins and Sith training).

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2004-10-24 05:36pm

JME2 wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:
Maybe Ep3 will show us why Obi and Yoda weren't capable of stopping the dynamic dark duo when they were younger.
I doubt it, but it seems obvious- Palpatine was a trained Sith(probably taken as a young child, too, and returned later), and, as can be seen, can hide his power. Anakin, from what it seems in Episode 2, saw Obi and Yoda as "part of the problem" or as holding him back.
Part of this will all depend on the revelations made in ROTS about Palpatine/Sidious's origins, if Sidious' master infiltrated Palpatine's household (this would be a great addition to Cloak of Deception, to focus further on Palpatine's origins and Sith training).

It would be awesome. For one thing, Palpatine is unlike almost all the Jedi in either the novels or the movies, because his power(other than force lightning) seems to center a lot in manipulating other's perception of him- such as cloaking his obvious Sith power when he is standing right next to Yoda at Qui-Gon's funeral.

Sunstreaker · Post by **Sunstreaker** » 2004-10-24 05:54pm

Howedar wrote:Neither Yoda nor Obi Wan could turn Vader. Luke could.

Obi and Yoda trained Luke to dethrone the Imperial Sith, not specifically to turn Vader. Obi and Yoda didn’t even believe that turning a Sith in general was even possible. The original question was: why couldn't Obi, Yoda or any other Jedi do the job, which can only be hypothesized at this point until EP3 comes out. I thought my point was fairly obvious so I'll let the thread originator read it and comment, but here's my elaboration just for you. During ESB, Obi's ghost and Yoda didn't believe anyone had a chance in hell of stopping the two Sith, or they wanted Luke to become a full fledged Jedi for some other reason (to carry on the Jedi tradition for example). Regardless the statement was made to persuade Luke to stay on Dagobah, and I doubt it was as much exposition as it was exaggeration. No Jedi have been killed (on screen) without a Sith present or vise versa, so Yoda's words have some truth to them.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-10-24 06:16pm

Stravo wrote:Yoda states that only a fully trained Jedi Knight can defeat Vader and his Emperor. But weren't there thousands of trained Jedi Knights at the time of the purge? Didn't seem like their training did them much good. Or is it possible that a deep suspicion I've had about the purge as it will be portrayed in the movie is that most if not all the trained Jedi and their padawans are killed in a single event, say a bombing thus making this statement true in a sense. In the same vein that Yoda beng Obi Wan's teacher was true in GL's retconning in TPM.

Actually Luke didn't defeat Vader and the Emperor. He defeated Vader who in turn defeated the Emperor.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-10-24 06:32pm

Sunstreaker wrote:
Howedar wrote:Neither Yoda nor Obi Wan could turn Vader. Luke could.
Obi and Yoda trained Luke to dethrone the Imperial Sith, not specifically to turn Vader. Obi and Yoda didn’t even believe that turning a Sith in general was even possible.

Conceded.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-10-24 11:04pm

I always figured Yoda and Obi-Wan felt even Luke's chances against Vader and Palpatine were a long shot, but he was their last, best hope. In other words, nobody but a fully-trained had a chance in hell against them, but it was still a slim one even then.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2004-10-25 05:34am

Kurgan wrote:One wonders why Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't join together to fight the Emperor. Does being an elderly person really make it that hard to fight? ("I'm getting too old for this sort of thing" vs. Yoda in AOTC) Or do they just recognize the potential in Luke and possibly a tie-in to Prophecy?

I can understand the two Jedi being too depressed and scared after what happened to their 10,000 colleagues a few decades ago though...

I sort of assume that Luke only had a chance because Vader and Palpy were intent on turning him, so they didn't have their titanic armada vaporize him as soon as he got close enough to sense his presence. Obi Wan and Yoda couldn't be turned, so they wouldn't get the same courtesy.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-25 09:29am

How do we know they couldn't be turned?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-25 09:35am

Kurgan wrote:How do we know they couldn't be turned?

With what coercion?

The Rebellion?

The Rebirth of the Jedi Order?

Disgruntled?

Think before asking a question that has an obvious answer. Luke was unprepared and could be persuaded if pressed hard enough. Kenobi and Yoda's point of being coerced had long since passed and what they would want in return for said power would not mesh very well with either Vader nor Palpatine's motivation.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2004-10-25 11:26pm

Kurgan wrote:How do we know they couldn't be turned?

Obi Wan was tested in Episode 2 and passed (or failed, from a Sith point of view), and Yoda, as Ghost Rider pointed out is about eight hundred years past the point where they could even think about trying.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-26 11:29pm

I just see that as "harder to turn" as opposed to "impossible." Young minds are easier to corrupt, so they would be a perferrable candidate.

Dooku was turned very late in his career as a Jedi Master. And he honestly didn't try very hard with Obi-Wan.

Unless you want to argue that he was on the Dark path "all along" and nobody figure it out. Anakin was unstable, and didn't have a traditional Jedi upbringing and he had Palpatine's meddling going on, so of course I can see that one.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-27 08:07am

Kurgan wrote:I just see that as "harder to turn" as opposed to "impossible." Young minds are easier to corrupt, so they would be a perferrable candidate.

Dooku was turned very late in his career as a Jedi Master. And he honestly didn't try very hard with Obi-Wan.

Unless you want to argue that he was on the Dark path "all along" and nobody figure it out. Anakin was unstable, and didn't have a traditional Jedi upbringing and he had Palpatine's meddling going on, so of course I can see that one.

That argument falters on the thought, that Dooku had in him the want to more.

He was a radical, disagreed with the Council...literally Palpatine offered him what he wanted.

So tell me what do Obi-Wan and Yoda fucking want that would coincide with what Vader and Palpatine wanted in the era of the New Order.

Jeez, quit this bizarre ring around and provide your personal theory to your question instead of questioning others contantly.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-27 01:08pm

Did it occur to you that maybe I'm asking questions because I haven't made up my own mind yet? That's not wrong, y'know (but I'm sure it's very annoying). ; )

Honestly I don't know what Dooku wanted. He was in league with Palpatine, remember? Half the stuff he said could be lies, designed to confuse his enemies!

Obviously he wanted power, of some kind, being a Sith, but beyond that... we don't know. I'm assuming he liked the idea of being "more powerful than any Jedi" with the glee he says that famous line. But that's his Force power. Did he really want to rule Starsystems? Did he want more wealth? More prestiege? For people to fear him? Listen to his ideas?

Some more backstory on why he left the Order and the reaction it got would have been nice to the story, but oh well.

Perhaps Palpatine could have tried to turn the two remaining Jedi by putting it to them this way:

Your Order became extinct because you were arrogant and complacent. It took a revolution to show you how small-minded and foolish you'd become. I was sitting there all along and you never even noticed, because you were so caught up in your own affairs. With my help you can rebuild your Order, doing things right this time, by embracing that which you feared. I know you don't like the Dark Side but that's only because you can't control it like I can. I've figured out the secrets, so it works for you, not against you. While you Jedi were frittering away your time with your out-moded rules, we Sith were coming to a complete understanding of the Dark Side and how it complements your powers, rather than limiting them.
About that "limiting your powers" bit, sorry, but I had to teach you a lesson in humility. Wouldn't you like to not only have your powers back, but have them even stronger? Think of the good you could accomplish.

Your obsolete ways let a corrupt Republic fall apart from the inside. Whereas I've figured out how to have ORDER and LAW. People love a good strong leader and look up to him. And every good strong leader needs good strong henchmen, er, I mean champions! And now Galactic matters are under our direct control, no more of these crazy wars and corrupt politicians. We'll have peace and prosperity again!

That's the pitch (throw in lots of sugar coated bullshit that Palpatine is so good at) I'd give 'em.

If he can convince them that this is the RIGHT WAY to have peace and justice after all, and a way to bring back a NEW AND IMPROVED Jedi Order, that might be something that both Jedi want. Was Obi-Wan part of the Council before? Well, he is now! He and Yoda would be the leaders of a New Jedi Order, to mould as they saw fit, incorporating the new teachings that Palpatine has discovered.

Now granted, it's a little late now to throw that at the two of them now that he's basically killed everyone, but we don't yet know in Episode III how this all plays out. Maybe that Palpatine is responsible for the deaths of all the Jedi isn't made known to the Galaxy at large. Maybe they assume that Vader is acting alone (or with allies outside Palpatine's known inner circles). So perhaps it is seen as a "Jedi civil war" or something. I don't know. Or perhaps the Jedi just all are thought to have died in battle or something, rather than what we've all assumed all along, that they are hunted down and executed.

Then again, Obi-Wan seems to know what happened (maybe he finds out too late). But if he thinks Anakin is dead... he must have found out later, because he knows that Vader = Anakin. Or perhaps he just sees this "Vader" character come out of nowhere and doesn't realize who he is until much later (perhaps through the Force it is revealed to him). I just hope that Lucas doesn't screw up what he already established with with more "point of view" BS! Then there's no way to predict what will happen...

As to a fully trained Jedi being needed to defeat Vader/Palpy, that's pretty much something I agree with. Sure, Luke could get through it with luck and being the son of the Chosen One and all, but he could have spared himself additional pain and suffering had he completed his training and had an easier time. It was more of a risk the way he did it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-27 01:09pm

For a person unable to make up one's mind, it's amazing the length in which you express it.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

"Only a Fully Trained Jedi Knight..."

"Only a Fully Trained Jedi Knight..."

Re: "Only a Fully Trained Jedi Knight..."

Re: "Only a Fully Trained Jedi Knight..."

Re: "Only a Fully Trained Jedi Knight..."