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Something that always bugged me was the sudden fatherly love that Vader feels for Luke that eventually leads to his redemption. Let's look at the facts.

Vader spent perhaps 3-4 hours in total over the three movies with Luke. About an hour of that time was spent in life or death dueling over Bespin and Endor. Leaving the only real quality time they had together was on the trip up from Endor to the DSII.

Is it realistic to believe that a man that casually kills people with a flick of the wrist (or crook of the finger) and has overseen the subjugation of a galaxy and more importantly the death of his friends and colleagues (The Jedi Order) would suddenly get all mushy about some whiney kid he simply does not know.

Think of it this way. You meet some kid you've never known or spoken to or even know existed. They tell you he's your son and he's out to take out everything that you've built. You spend 1/4 of the your time knowing him fighting him. Would you turn on an old ally and friend because he was going to kill this kid after he maimed you and took your hand?

It works as a story and drama but does it also work in real life? Is it realistic to believe that a man like Vader would chuck everything for a boy he never knew.

He got weepy eyed?

Perhaps he saw in Luke everything he could've had...no wait, he got sex...so not that, and the other girl wasn't his sister.

As realism goes...it doesn't make that much sense, but then again given my supposed best friend was about to watch me die because some whiny brat was going to replace me. Heck I'd throw my friend into the deep pit too, the lousy bastard.

Vader never knew the whiny Luke. He only knew the battle hardened man that believed that there was still good inside Vader, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I think it was Luke's faith that there was a spark of goodness still left in Vader that caused Vader to turn on the Emperor. It is a faith only a son or daughter could have in a parent. I don't think anyone else could have that kind of faith and would have been killed by Vader or the Emperor at the drop of a hat.

Agreed. Think about it. Obi-Wan, Yoda, even Palpatine believed there was no spark of good left in him. It's one thing to here that plea from Obi-Wan ("Obi-Wan once thought as you did"), but another to hear that from your son. I think a lot of it will depend on the revelations made in ROTS and on how much he wanted the true sense of family that Jedi Order and Obi-Wan -- in his mind -- denied him.

In the time since my last post, I gave it some thought and came across a possible answer, one that could explain the tweaked Vader/Palpatine conversation in the ESB DVD. I believe Vader did kill Palpatine to save Luke, but that it was not his sole motive. Like Nom Anor to Shimmra during the end of the NJO, he just couldn't take Palpatine's b.s. anymore.

Alright, as we can see in AOTC, Palpatine is telling Anakin the truth, or at least the truth as Anakin believes it. He's playing on the Padawan's ego, telling him everything he wants to here, things that the Jedi will not. In his mind, Palpatine is never wrong or deceitful to Anakin.

Now, this is where the tweaked ESB dialouge comes in. Vader expresses disbelief that Palpatine is certain that Luke is indeed Anakin's offspring. This will tie into what is likely with ROTS, that Palpatine will be the one to tell Anakin that Padme was killed by his [Anakin's] hand.

This one moment of such great personal nature, shows that what Palpatine told Vader was wrong. I think here, the seed of doubt is placed in Vader's mind about how truthful Palpatine truly is towards Vader. This comes to a head at the end of his duel with Luke aboard the DS2, where Palpatine tells Luke to strike down Vader and take his [Vader's] place at the Emperor's side.

This was, as either versions of the ESB dialouge go, not what Vader had had in mind when Palpatine ordered him to turn Luke to the Dark Side, that he wanted Luke alive. Palpatine not only wants Luke to kill him, but twhen Luke refuses, Palpatine tries to kill him.

Throwing Palpatine into the DS2's reactor was him, as I put forth here, Vader finally realizing that Palpatine had played him for a fool, that the Emperor had manipulated him into everything that had happened since AOTC, and that it had cost him everything and everyone that had truly cared for him.

And everyone that had cared about him had given up on him, from Obi-Wan to Yoda. All except his son who had never even met him as Anakin Skywalker, who saw all of his evil, yet saw the good in him that the Emperor had buried. So, as I poastulate here, while it was his love for the son that didn't lost faith in him that caused his turn back to the Light Side, it was also him sick of Palpatine's b.s.

Stravo wrote:Something that always bugged me was the sudden fatherly love that Vader feels for Luke that eventually leads to his redemption. Let's look at the facts.

Vader spent perhaps 3-4 hours in total over the three movies with Luke. About an hour of that time was spent in life or death dueling over Bespin and Endor. Leaving the only real quality time they had together was on the trip up from Endor to the DSII.

Is it realistic to believe that a man that casually kills people with a flick of the wrist (or crook of the finger) and has overseen the subjugation of a galaxy and more importantly the death of his friends and colleagues (The Jedi Order) would suddenly get all mushy about some whiney kid he simply does not know.

Think of it this way. You meet some kid you've never known or spoken to or even know existed. They tell you he's your son and he's out to take out everything that you've built. You spend 1/4 of the your time knowing him fighting him. Would you turn on an old ally and friend because he was going to kill this kid after he maimed you and took your hand?

It works as a story and drama but does it also work in real life? Is it realistic to believe that a man like Vader would chuck everything for a boy he never knew.

A bit unrealsitic, but understandable. Remember, that any of his family members have alway throw Anakin/Vader into turmoil. They are a catalyst for either dragging him to the darkside or pulling away from it. You can say thay when he first found out that he had living offspring (fatherly instinct?) it recreated that struggle/conflict.

I thought Vader had a soft spot for Luke the moment he said "if he could be turned..."

I wonder if the "good spark" inside Vader is actively influencing him to follow this path (of trying to keep Luke alive rather than kill him) without knowing why. The "evil side" of Vader might just assume that it was a selfish reason... here's a way to gain some leverage on his master and become more powerful. Then again the good side may also want to be free from Palpatine's control.

Luke strengthens that "Good spark" so it grows bigger, and increases the conflict, creating more of a bond between them (the goodness in Vader identifies with the goodness in Luke). Something along those lines anyway.

I like your idea about how Vader may not especially like Palpatine, but he TRUSTS HIM and feels that this is something he doesn't have in others.

When all trace of that trust are finally broken, and he sees that Luke was "right about [him]" he is able to destroy the Emperor. Finally, the good in him, that didn't want Luke to die sees him crumpled on the floor and the Emperor distracted. Boom... he acts. The breaking of trust lets the selfish side join with the good side (wanting revenge for playing him the fool + wanting to save Luke) so he can finish off the old jerk.

I think the lightning damaging the robotic parts of his body is perhaps symbolic of the "bad side" being killed off. It's like his physical body dying is purging the evil "machine" from the good man that is still deep down inside. What's left can't survive but at least he can die with some peace and dignity at last. The fact that he keeps fighting even though he's dying, shows the strength of his resolve, that was only lukewarm before.

I think Vader had a plan to take out Palpatine for a long time, but the reasons for that plan went through a metamorphosis.

Kurgan wrote: I think the lightning damaging the robotic parts of his body is perhaps symbolic of the "bad side" being killed off. It's like his physical body dying is purging the evil "machine" from the good man that is still deep down inside. What's left can't survive but at least he can die with some peace and dignity at last. The fact that he keeps fighting even though he's dying, shows the strength of his resolve, that was only lukewarm before.
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Hmm. That would indeed keep in line with Lucas' message of technological abilities vs. natural abilities that's so prominent in the films, especially during ROTJ and at the end of AOTC.

Vader turns back and forth, between Man A (engaged in torture of his son) and Man B (who essentially has forfeited his life to save Vader's).

I don't see it as a tough question.

I see lots of posts by people who don't seem to have children....

Anakin Skywalker still exists inside Darth Vader...and Anakin was a very good man once. Regardless of the fact that they had no prior relationship, the father-son bond would presumably still be strong (as Luke places faith that his father still exists inside Darth Vader and Vader seems to be trying to take him in...even if to rule the Galaxy). Furthermore, JME2 gave lots of good reasons why it's not out of character for Vader given the circumstances.

I find nothing at all "unrealistic" about it.

It's one thing to say Luke has faith in his father because of the father and son bond. Luke was looking for his father all his life. He desperately clung to the father figures that showed up in his life namely Ben and to a lesser extent Owen. He always wanted to know anything about his father and you could see it in his eyes when Ben was telling him about his father being a Jedi knight. It was that expression that all children have when they find out their dad is indeed cool. Of course Luke would yearn to save his father.

But Vader had none of this. He was not yearning for a child (that we know of) A father-son bond does not spontaneoulsy appear between a father and child just because they happen to exist 18 years later. You can say how magical it is and I can point to a plethora of cases where fathers beat their children to death, abandoned them in dumpsters, etc and they KNEW these kids and they were babies or young children.

Vader is not your average man. He is perhaps one of the greatest mass murderers in galactic history who thought nothing about slaughtering people he had grown up with and called friends (The Jedi) I don't see much of a chance of a father-son bond sparking in the grand total of 4 hours he spent with the kid.

Vader was sentimental enough to stop Boba Fett from blasting Chewbacca & C-3P0 (as if he doesn't remember the droid he made with his own two hands)- I'm sure the last thing he has to remember of the woman he loved (i.e. their children) would illicit a stronger response. That's my take, anyway.

I saw a really good piece of fan-art once- you know, they're rare, but this one was very good- it was Vader sitting in his chamber on the Executor, helmet off, staring at a holo of Padme Amidala. Fuck it was a good picture- not so much the drawing itself, but the idea of the drawing.

Stravo wrote:Vader is not your average man. He is perhaps one of the greatest mass murderers in galactic history who thought nothing about slaughtering people he had grown up with and called friends (The Jedi)

He also spent years fighting alongside them. Only ROTS can explain the details of Anakin's Fall. Perhaps he went the Jedi equivalent of insane? Or his will was totally subsumed by the Dark Side; ROTJ practically states as much.

[EDIT] I also don't think he's one of the greatest mass murderers either; somehow I think Palpatine and Tarkin have a comfortable lead in that regard. Didn't even Kyp Duran kill a lot of people? I haven't read the KJA Abomination, but didn't he fly the Suncrusher or something?

I don't see much of a chance of a father-son bond sparking in the grand total of 4 hours he spent with the kid.

SW is supposed to be mythic rather than realistic.

I agree. Ever watched the evening news and the police find a dead body in the trunk of some guy's car? They interview the killer's parents/ wife/ girlfriend and just about every time, they say "Oh Johnny would never do anything like that!" and they spend their life's savings on lawyers to get him off -even if they know goddamned well he did it! Blood is THICK!

Vader and Luke might be on separate sides of a civil war. Vader might have just found out he's a daddy. But he's still somewhat human and maybe even proud of the boy! Vader mentions "Skywalker" when he sees the reports of Hoth and before the hologram from Sidious. So he knows full well who Luke is. His feigned disbelief about being Luke's father is simply an attempt to dissuade Sidious from going after Luke.

So Vader and Sidious do a kind of verbal dance about Luke. It's clear in retrospect that by the time the meeting is over each has decided to betray the other, but they couch their intentions by pretending to assuage the feelings of the other.

Vader starts with:
maybe Luke isn't his son
even if he is, he's no threat
why not put me in charge of finding and converting him
[so I can administer a major fucking-over on you, old man]

Sidious' line is:
he knows Luke is Anakin's son
he doesn't want any Jedi -especially not a Skywalker
OK big boy, go ahead and find him
[because I can see already you're going to try to fuck me over once you get this apprentice trained. Go ahead, because I'm going to do you one better by winning him over as my own apprentice. Then as Donald Trump would say "Yah fired!"]

Vader ended up getting more than he bargained for. He still had a tiny piece of conscience left, and seeing Luke dying rather than convert must have brought it out of him. He could see his own shame because his son (who was much weaker than he was when he made his decision) would rather die than do what he did. Blood loyalty: no parent wants to see his child (even an estranged one) die.

And given that SW runs in cycles like music, there is probably a point in ROTS where Palpatine is tearing up Jedi and Anakin is standing by. He has two choices: Jedi or Sith. He chose the Sith. Now, many years later, he's in the same position and makes the right choice. Guilt, shame, anger, betrayal, grief and family loyalty all came over him, plus Sidious was distracted so the old man wouldn't see it coming... Payback's a bitch, just like Ann Coulter!

I maintain that until the advent of fatherhood, one's definition of realistic on the topic is not a viewpoint one can really speak to.

Armored Goldbar wrote:I maintain that until the advent of fatherhood, one's definition of realistic on the topic is not a viewpoint one can really speak to.

As a father of a six year old I think I have some basis for making my objection to sudden feeling of deep filial love in the span of a few hours.

Stravo wrote:

Armored Goldbar wrote:I maintain that until the advent of fatherhood, one's definition of realistic on the topic is not a viewpoint one can really speak to.

As a father of a six year old I think I have some basis for making my objection to sudden feeling of deep filial love in the span of a few hours.

And yet I can say that my brother is certainly conflicted about his fatherhood role; he's said extremes from "I wish I never had children" to "God I love them." I don't find Anakin's 11th Hour turn to be so incredulous. Not when I've witnessed it in real life from my own family.

Stravo wrote:[snip]

But he is, essentially, ultimately regretful and dispairing at what he has become. "It is too late for me - my son." And Luke is the ONLY thing Vader has left in terms of sentimentalities. He's not an emotionally healthy individual by any means - and all that is personified and concentrated on the only thing left - Luke.

Vader's feelings for Luke could have been stewing since the day he learned of his existence. Maybe, upon realizing he had a son and the boy was out there, he started getting these candy-coated notions (for Vader anyway) of finding him and ruling together as he says. Add to it that the boy is strong with the Force and is on the six o' clock news doing this and that, and Vader starts getting fuelled by pride and having preconcived ideas about who Luke is and how he acts. He gets caught up in a little obsessive fantasy of his own about 'his boy' and thinks that if he can just get to him and make him understand... If he sees a resemblance to Padme in Luke too, that could add fuel to the fire. Maybe Vader built Luke up in his mind to be 'the son he always wanted' and manufactured a bond for him with obsession.

ever seen phantom menace and rotj back to back? you get an excellent feel of the idealistic sprog inside the evil armor.

Enforcer Talen wrote:ever seen phantom menace and rotj back to back? you get an excellent feel of the idealistic sprog inside the evil armor.

Lucas made a comment during the ROTJ DVD commentary that I find interesting, to see all 6 episodes back-to-back. With the original trilogy, the story appeared to be about Luke and to a large extent, it still is. But with the release of TPM, AOTC, and soon ROTS, the story is not so much Luke's as it is Anakin's, of his rise, fall, and redemption through his children.

This also ties into the point Elfdart made earlier, one that I totally agree with, about Star Wars running in Cycles. Luke and Anakin, when they first start out, are both cut from the same cloth in a manner of speaking. Both grew up on Tatooine, were fantastic pilots and immature, young men, and had a great affinity to the Force.

Now, in ROTJ, Luke was given the choice to kill Vader in his anger with Palpatine egging him on; Anakin will likely have a similiar situation with Palpatine during ROTS. With the repeat of cycle, both given a similiar choice, but their uprbringings and viewpoints help influence the decision based on their personal histories.

Anakin grew up a slave and wanted to be anywhere by Tatooine. As Yoda, predicted, the resentment and anger he had built up in those ten years would come back to haunt him by AOTC/ROTS, feelings that the Jedi Order's seeming indifference only made worse. That of course was why the Jedi Council only admitted infants to the Order, to prevent that kind of immaturity and ill-feelings from developing.

Luke grew up as a moisture farmer and also wanted to be anyway other than Tatooine. But here is where the key difference comes. Luke grew up with resentment, but not anger. Anger was always a part of Anakin's life. Luke's resentment was tempered by both Leia, Han, and his friends in the Alliance whereas Anakin's Jedi peers were as I said not able to.

In addition, while Luke did end up serving the Force, he did so at a later part of his life. He did not spend ten years training to be a Jedi, no rather simply a paid-for crash course on Dagobah. Because he, in that manner of speaking grew up before training to be a Jedi, Luke was able to achieve the level of emotional maturitry that Anakin was never able to (the revelation of Vader being Luke's father also helped it along, tying into what Stravo said earlier about wanting to learn about his father).

So, this now all leads back to the scenario that will occur in ROTS/ROTJ. Both generations of Skywalkers are given a choice that will affect not only their lives but the galaxy as a whole. With the emotional maturity that his own experiences and upbringing give him (the Luke of ROTJ is a far different individual that the youth we met in ANH), Luke is able to prevent himself from falling into the same trap that Palpatine snared his father in.

Stravo wrote:

Armored Goldbar wrote:I maintain that until the advent of fatherhood, one's definition of realistic on the topic is not a viewpoint one can really speak to.

As a father of a six year old I think I have some basis for making my objection to sudden feeling of deep filial love in the span of a few hours.

Then I am absolutely shocked that you'd even post such a thing. Irrespective of any relationship I may or may not have had with my son, I certainly wouldn't stand by and let him be tortured to death. Furthermore, you are deliberately misrepresenting facts by saying that everything occurred "in the span of a few hours." Vader had several YEARS IIRC to devote thought to his son. I maintain that JME2 has made several very valid points about the whole thing and there is nothing at all unreasonable about it.

Armored Goldbar wrote:Then I am absolutely shocked that you'd even post such a thing. Irrespective of any relationship I may or may not have had with my son, I certainly wouldn't stand by and let him be tortured to death. Furthermore, you are deliberately misrepresenting facts by saying that everything occurred "in the span of a few hours." Vader had several YEARS IIRC to devote thought to his son. I maintain that JME2 has made several very valid points about the whole thing and there is nothing at all unreasonable about it.

Which part is shocking? That I maintain that a mass murderer whose killed people he has known and cared about (the Jedi) more than he should some random hick bushpilot that comes out of nowhere seems a bit unrealistic? Someone who helped maintain the most brutal dictatorship in the galaxy for a generation would suddenly get all weepy over a child that he admitedly only viewed as a tool for getting rid of the Emperor up until ROTJ?

In another thread today we have the story of a father who stabbed his 7yr old son several times after killing his wife. Being a father or a parent does not automatically create bonds of love and nurturing. I know too many friends from broken homes that attests to that fact. Here we have the second most evil man in the galaxy suddenly waxing paternal in the final moments of his ultimate triumph after being maimed by his son.

I'm sorry Stravo, but even genocidal lunatics are not that kind of charictured whackos.

Stalin really did adore his daughter, for example. And he killed tens of millions of people, including dozens or hundreds of his own close and former associates.

And what evidence do you have for Vader enjoying the death of his comrades? Apart from Obi Wan, what evidence do you have that he butchered happily so many of his compatriots? Isn't that your position in another thread - that he in fact did not?