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After having watched the trailer and seeing the effect of Anakin with yellow eyes and looking just plain eeevvviiillll I have to wonder whether Vader was right in ROTJ when he tells Luke that he cannot return to the light side. "You don't know the power of the dark side" almost as if he is compelled to follow his master.

Think of the end of ROTJ, Vader had his hand chopped off, he's battered and bruised, only to hear the Emperor urge Luke to kill him and take his place at the Emperor's side. What's his first instinct? He stands dutifully by his master's side.

I think that the idea that a man becomes his Sith personna when he turns may have some merit. Perhaps Obi Wan isn't the lying bastard we always assumed he was with his 'certain point of view' crap. Perhaps the good man that was Anakin Skywalker is subsumed by the new Vader personna.

The Sith lords literally become slaves to their master.

Just a thought that I think lends some credence as to why they actually physically change when consumed by the dark side of the Force. (ie the eyes)

EDIT: Another quote that occured to me was Yoda's "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny - consume you it will as it did Obi Wan's apprentice." Consume you as in devour what you were. It just dominates and controls you.

Stravo wrote:The Sith lords literally become slaves to their master.

Turning to the Dark Side in the first place would be a concious choice. Luke was offered the chance to turn. I'm not so inclined to believe the slaves part -- maybe a very strong influence. If Palpatine had so much control over Vader, why did Palpatine allow Vader to pull a hulk hogan on him? As well sucession of the sith occurs when the pupil kills the master. How is this possible if the master has literal control over the pupil?

Just a thought that I think lends some credence as to why they actually physically change when consumed by the dark side of the Force. (ie the eyes)

The physical change could just be a side-effect of so much negative Force going through their bodies?

Brian

brianeyci wrote:

Stravo wrote:The Sith lords literally become slaves to their master.

Turning to the Dark Side in the first place would be a concious choice. Luke was offered the chance to turn. I'm not so inclined to believe the slaves part -- maybe a very strong influence. If Palpatine had so much control over Vader, why did Palpatine allow Vader to pull a hulk hogan on him? As well sucession of the sith occurs when the pupil kills the master. How is this possible if the master has literal control over the pupil?

Vader's destruction of the Emperor could be a sign of his unyielding will, his strength in the force that he overcomes his leash and directly confornts his master. Palpy seemed pretty confident that Vader wouldn't do anything when he loomed behind him throughout his attack on Luke. It is Vader's heroic feat of will that saves the galaxy and brings balance to the Force.

I think The Dark Side is like a drug, and the Sith Lords more or less want more, like drug addicts.

Then there´s the whole parasite-angle. The Jedi live in symbiosis with all living things, while the Sith prey upon society. This fuels the Dark Side, making it bigger and stronger, thus serving their need for more of it. Like an evil cycle.

VT-16 wrote:I think The Dark Side is like a drug, and the Sith Lords more or less want more, like drug addicts.

Then there´s the whole parasite-angle. The Jedi live in symbiosis with all living things, while the Sith prey upon society. This fuels the Dark Side, making it bigger and stronger, thus serving their need for more of it. Like an evil cycle.

I've always thought of it in a similar manner. Hopefully some of our questions will be answered in May of 05.

It's funny in both cases (that know) of a Sith apprentice betraying his/her Master (Darth Malak and Darth Vader) the pupil doesn't confront the master directly . (Vader takes the from behind and Malak ordered his ship to open fire on Revan's flagship during a Republic Attack). It seem that Sith lords are so scared of their masters that they can't confront them in "honest" duel.


As for dark side corruption it's quite clear in KOTOR where the more powerful become in the dark side of Force more ugly and mauled you look (eyes are the first thing change (into the yellow color we see on the Sith Lords). Also the Corruption seem fade when redeem yourself so this explain why old Anakin doesn't have yellow eyes even in the DVD's.

There was a rumor that Anakin´s eyes in the trailer was just put there for effect and won´t be seen in the movie. However, if that´s not the case, then it´s pretty clear this is what Vader looked like, underneath his helmet. And when he saves his son, the color fades away. (As said above.)

Lord Revan wrote:It's funny in both cases (that know) of a Sith apprentice betraying his/her Master (Darth Malak and Darth Vader) the pupil doesn't confront the master directly . (Vader takes the from behind and Malak ordered his ship to open fire on Revan's flagship during a Republic Attack). It seem that Sith lords are so scared of their masters that they can't confront them in "honest" duel.

Maybe they are afraid of their masters until the day they realize they have become more powerful than their masters? That would allow for the normal Sith succession system and the observed irregularities (Vader and Malak did it differently because they knew they still were weaker than their masters).

Stravo wrote:Vader's destruction of the Emperor could be a sign of his unyielding will, his strength in the force that he overcomes his leash and directly confornts his master. Palpy seemed pretty confident that Vader wouldn't do anything when he loomed behind him throughout his attack on Luke.

However, Vader chose to turn to the Dark Side in the first place. Even if Palpatine had not existed, Anakin would have had to live with his slaughter of the sand people for the rest of his life. Palpatine just amplified that rage, and Anakin gave in to temptation,

ANH wrote:BEN: But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when
you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force.

YODA: Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure
at the cave!

So can resisting the Dark Side merely mean resisting temptation? I say yes, but a very strong temptation, akin to sex, would be my theory. Remember Palpatine, who told Anakin to trust his instincts. The Dark Side seems to amplfy carnal urges, and Dark Side temptation = sex meshes well.

Why does the Dark Side target some and not others? The Mind Control theory doesn't explain why it would target individuals with a certain mindset, while the sex theory does. Why would not Palpatine have targeted Mace, or any other Jedi? Because they were too powerful in The Force to be Mind Controlled? Jedi are trained to block all emotions, not just negative ones. Most emotions are wild, in the category of sex. Supressing all emotion would be an effective means of defeating the Dark Side. If you weren't trained from childhood to supress your emotions, it would be very dangerous for you to wield the Force since you would likely be tempted and turned.

Palpy's confidence in Vader not attacking him could be relying on this sexual urge for the Dark Side and thinking Vader could not overcome this. He made a mistake in underestimating familial ties.

It is Vader's heroic feat of will that saves the galaxy and brings balance to the Force.

I disagree with this on many levels. First the "Vader is a Hero" part. Would you consider a "Hitler" who at the last second, in the Furherbunker, decided to save his son, a hero! Vader was not under some sort of Mind Control spell, Vader gave in to temptation and was entirely responsible for his actions. Saving his son does not undo all the damage he did before, not by a long shot. He may be in Jedi heaven for helping "balance the force", but he is not a hero in any respect.

"But I never said Vader was a Hero, he did a heroic feat!" Someone who does a heroic feat, is for at least that instance, a hero. Vader didn't do a heroic feat. He finally realized that giving into the temptation would result in the death of his lineage. Vader's "sacrifice" is a selfish attempt at extending his bloodline. Why does Vader try for so long to turn Luke to the Dark Side, and even offer Luke a chance to rule the galaxy by his side? Because of Familial bonds. Vader's familial bonds finally overcame his perpetual orgasm with the Dark Side, and he killed the Emperor to safeguard his sire. That he manages to get rid of an oppresive dictator in the process is collateral.

And "balancing the Force" saving the galaxy? Rubbish. The rebels destroying the Death Star saved the galaxy, not "balancing the Force." It was "balancing the Force" that gave rise to the death of the guardians of peace and order in the galaxy in the first place. Balance in the case of The Force is a bad thing -- the more lightsiders, the better from a human point of view.

*waits for the flames*

Brian

Lord Revan wrote:It's funny in both cases (that know) of a Sith apprentice betraying his/her Master (Darth Malak and Darth Vader) the pupil doesn't confront the master directly . (Vader takes the from behind and Malak ordered his ship to open fire on Revan's flagship during a Republic Attack). It seem that Sith lords are so scared of their masters that they can't confront them in "honest" duel.

Or they are smart and realize their masters are more powerful so they need to rely on some sort of subterfuge.. Or they realize that a sneaky underhanded attack is far less risky than a direct confrontation.

Brian

Balance in the case of The Force is a bad thing -- the more lightsiders, the better from a human point of view.

Nope, balance means no-one around to exploit the Dark Side. The Dark Side feeds on chaos. A universe in chaos suxxors.

VT-16 wrote:Nope, balance means no-one around to exploit the Dark Side. The Dark Side feeds on chaos. A universe in chaos suxxors.

I don't know what kind of definition of balance you use. Balance means equality on both sides of the line, or Equilibrium. Dark Side and Light Side balanced means that there are equal amounts of Dark Side and Light Side influences in the galaxy. Nobody around to exploit the Dark Side would mean underbalance, or that the Light Side was too powerful.

Anakin was brought in to "bring balance to the Force". There were ten thousand Jedi roaming around, and a couple of Sith. Anakin was brought in to give the Dark Side more power.

Face it, the prophecy of balance was spelling the Jedi's doom. Yoda and Co. were just too stupid to realize it.

Brian

Dark Side and Light Side balanced means that there are equal amounts of Dark Side and Light Side influences in the galaxy. Nobody around to exploit the Dark Side would mean underbalance, or that the Light Side was too powerful.

Nope, no Dark Side means the universe continues on a path of grey. It is the official line, I think, that the very presence of Dark Side-users unbalances the Force and the universe in general. Don´t blame me if you don´t like that definition.

Anakin was brought in to give the Dark Side more power.

Nope, Anakin was brought in to destroy the Sith. It was his own stupid fault that he failed to do this, until 20 years had gone by under the influence of the Dark Side. Lucas says, he completes his mission by killing the Emperor. That is fact.

VT-16 wrote:Nope, no Dark Side means the universe continues on a path of grey. It is the official line, I think, that the very presence of Dark Side-users unbalances the Force and the universe in general. Don´t blame me if you don´t like that definition.

Who said this, and in what context? Dark Side users unbalancing the universe could be in a different context, for example that they unbalance the universe because there aren't enough lightside users as in the Rebellion era. I would like to see the quotation.

Anakin was brought in to give the Dark Side more power.

Nope, Anakin was brought in to destroy the Sith. It was his own stupid fault that he failed to do this, until 20 years had gone by under the influence of the Dark Side. Lucas says, he completes his mission by killing the Emperor. That is fact.

Lucas says he completes his "mission" by killing the Emperor could be intepreted any number of ways. Unless Lucas says "Anakin was born to destroy the Dark Side." Is this what he says, or does he just say that Anakin "completes his mission" in a vague sense?

*edited to fix quotation*

<edit> As well, the universe "continuing on a path of grey" doesn't mesh well with the idea of Star Wars. In Star Wars, it is very hard to be neutral, or be neither light or dark side. This is space fantasy, and a character is either good or bad. Neutral characters and neutral things are not very common in a space fantasy universe. </edit>

Brian

brianeyci wrote:
Face it, the prophecy of balance was spelling the Jedi's doom. Yoda and Co. were just too stupid to realize it.

Brian

Agreed, but not for the reason your thinking of.

Since the Force is kind of the phuedo god or destiney like powers in the SW universe, bringing 'balance to the Force' is more wide spread than just talking about the Jedi and the Sith.

If you look at the galactic political enviroment, the Old Republic was crumbling (even with out Palpatine). The goverment was corrupt and mostly impotent. The choosen protectors of peace and justice were suffering from massive bouts of arrogance.

Hell, slavery was alowed to happen and even with a Jedi there and seeing it, they didn't do anything but free a pet project.

So, what do you do if your the god/fate/destiny thingy. Let the galaxy continue to slide into a Darkages? Or you can make sweeping changes, quickly.

I'm reminded of the Foundation series and cutting the 'Darkages' down to just 1000 years instead of 10,000 or what ever it was.

You bring in the Emperor. He, using the Dark Side, sweeps aside the old regeim and all that is associated with it. Painfull? Yes, but all change is painful.

With the Emperor, though, you sow the seeds of the next step. Palpy takes Anakin as his bitch. A person who suffered as a child as a slave and being taken from him mom and feels personally responsible for her death.

Nice little inroads to turn him, but also makes a hard person with a hard willpower. A being who can be subtely manipulated but when directly confronted, is like a solid wall of willpower and self determination.

Palpy also sowed the seeds for the Rebellion. He used a civil war to gain his political power. But in doing so, imo, showed the galaxy at large that is was ok to rebel against the powers that be. Opening the floodgates, as it were.

Now that the Old Republics corruption has been swept aside, you introduce the Rebellion and the Skywalker kids. The Kids exploit the chinck of Vader in the Emperors armor while the Rebellion itself sweeps aside the Empire and its structures.

'Balence in the Force', well for the galaxy you've swung from a corrupt, impotent Rebulic to a controling and structured, if not just totally evil and oppressive Empire, and then swung into the middle ground of a new begining.

For the Jedi, I don't think balence is between good and evil or Jedi and Sith, rather like the galaxy, a new begining. The arrogance of both the Jedi and Sith are destroyed and Luke must start completely over and rebuild the Order from scratch.

This is my idea on the Force balance: normally the light side concentration of the Jedi is countered by natural malice present in the universe, but if the Jedi become too powerfull or too rigid, the Force counters that by making the Dark side users more powerfull.

Lord Revan wrote:This is my idea on the Force balance: normally the light side concentration of the Jedi is countered by natural malice present in the universe, but if the Jedi become too powerfull or too rigid, the Force counters that by making the Dark side users more powerfull.

With the concept of the 'Living Force' and the 'Unifying Force' it complicates things.

All and all, though, the Force is both sides and I really don't think they operate independently. Both the Dark and the Light work together to achieve what the Force wants to achieve.

Knife wrote:
Agreed, but not for the reason your thinking of.

Since the Force is kind of the phuedo god or destiney like powers in the SW universe, bringing 'balance to the Force' is more wide spread than just talking about the Jedi and the Sith.

And your proof of The Force being the driving force in the galaxy is? I know it sounds stupid, but The Force is the meto-particle count in a person which results in powerful abilities. The "Jedi Heaven" thing could be intepreted as residual eminations of The Force. How is The Force a god or a destiny? It just is.

'Balence in the Force', well for the galaxy you've swung from a corrupt, impotent Rebulic to a controling and structured, if not just totally evil and oppressive Empire, and then swung into the middle ground of a new begining.

The Force is the metochlorin count in a person which results in special abilities. Precognition is one of those special abilities. The Force being some sort of guide for the galaxy is a stretch. That a whole shitload of stuff happens by coincidence to bring the NR about or that Yoda and Co. believe that The Force drives the galaxy doesn't change that.

For the Jedi, I don't think balence is between good and evil or Jedi and Sith, rather like the galaxy, a new begining. The arrogance of both the Jedi and Sith are destroyed and Luke must start completely over and rebuild the Order from scratch.

Balance in the Force could simply be a prophecy sowed by Palpatine to make the Jedi more receptive to Anakin's arrival.

The metachlorin count thing demystified The Force. Too bad. Everything you listed being "the will of the Force" could be explained as coincidence. I am reminded of religous zealots saying they see the "will of god" in certain things.

Brian

Knife wrote:With the concept of the 'Living Force' and the 'Unifying Force' it complicates things.

All and all, though, the Force is both sides and I really don't think they operate independently. Both the Dark and the Light work together to achieve what the Force wants to achieve.

Now I think of it your Idea makes more sence then mine, And for the 'Living Force' and 'Unifying Force' they both part of light side and th dark side probaly has similar division just haven't heard about it. (the essance of Light side is order and creation and the essance for Dark side is destruction and chaos.)

Just as acorrection.

Midichlorians has dick and shit to do with the Force.

They are receptors, not the Force itself. Watch TPM again and listen to Qui-Gon. He never once says the Force is dependant on Midichlorians, he specifically says you need them to HEAR the Force.

So when Yoda and everyone goes about the will of the Force, it's because they listen to it and make assumptions from there.

Ghost Rider wrote:Just as acorrection.

Midichlorians has dick and shit to do with the Force.

They are receptors, not the Force itself. Watch TPM again and listen to Qui-Gon. He never once says the Force is dependant on Midichlorians, he specifically says you need them to HEAR the Force.

So when Yoda and everyone goes about the will of the Force, it's because they listen to it and make assumptions from there.

That supposes that The Force exists on its own, outside of people's perceptions. What is the evidence for that? A whole lot of good coincidences? The NR springs up and it is supposed to be because of The Force?

How would you tell the difference if The Force was external or internal?

For example, let's say that The Force exists outside of Midichlorians. Qui-Gon has the mito-powers. He percieves the future. Therefore, he concludes that The Force is some sort of entity.

Let's say that The Force does not exist out of Midichlorians. Qui-Gon has the mito-powers. He percieves the future. Therefore, he concludes The Force is some sort of external entity.

What characters say is hardly proof for the existence of The Force. Jedism was a religion, and it would be natural for them to believe that their powers originated because of some sort of external destiny, rather than believing in scientific evidence such as Midichlorians.

Brian

brianeyci wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Just as acorrection.

Midichlorians has dick and shit to do with the Force.

They are receptors, not the Force itself. Watch TPM again and listen to Qui-Gon. He never once says the Force is dependant on Midichlorians, he specifically says you need them to HEAR the Force.

So when Yoda and everyone goes about the will of the Force, it's because they listen to it and make assumptions from there.

That supposes that The Force exists on its own, outside of people's perceptions. What is the evidence for that? A whole lot of good coincidences? The NR springs up and it is supposed to be because of The Force?

Yes, because if you don't grasp cause and effect, and you want to be a fucking moron.

Does anyone ever say the NR is the will of the Force, anyone ever say the Empire, The Sith Empire?

You're stretching your fucking coincidences to fit your moronic ideas of the subject instead of investigating.

How would you tell the difference if The Force was external or internal?

How do we know Gravity is dumbfuck

For example, let's say that The Force exists outside of Midichlorians. Qui-Gon has the mito-powers. He percieves the future. Therefore, he concludes that The Force is some sort of entity.

Let's say that The Force does not exist out of Midichlorians. Qui-Gon has the mito-powers. He percieves the future. Therefore, he concludes The Force is some sort of external entity.

What characters say is hardly proof for the existence of The Force. Jedism was a religion, and it would be natural for them to believe that their powers originated because of some sort of external destiny, rather than believing in scientific evidence such as Midichlorians.

Brian

Y'know I love fucktards like you who don't grasp how science works and try to pigeonhole shit, yet get the analogy wrong.

brianeyci wrote:
And your proof of The Force being the driving force in the galaxy is? I know it sounds stupid, but The Force is the meto-particle count in a person which results in powerful abilities. The "Jedi Heaven" thing could be intepreted as residual eminations of The Force. How is The Force a god or a destiny? It just is.

" "Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

The Force is more than just the midacloreans (sp?). Its everywhere. And the Force is the defacto god/religeon of the SW universe. Considering that the Jedi 'worship' it and use it for supernatural purposes. Is it a coincidence that the Jedi are very Monk like?

With the introduction of the Unifying and Living Force philociphies, you get a bigger picture of their religion. And the Unifying Force is shown as the Force the oversee's and binds the galaxy together. REF. NJO.

The Force is the metochlorin count in a person which results in special abilities. Precognition is one of those special abilities. The Force being some sort of guide for the galaxy is a stretch. That a whole shitload of stuff happens by coincidence to bring the NR about or that Yoda and Co. believe that The Force drives the galaxy doesn't change that.

It has never been shown that the metochlorin count is the thing that gives you Force powers. It could be just as well that the Metochlorin count is just an indicator or a side effect or just somehting that happens in a Force user rather than the cause.

And on general religion, I agree with you, but the Force has measurable effects that show that this particular religion is atleast in part real. Perhaps not the Jedi interpertation of it, but it DOES exsist.

Balance in the Force could simply be a prophecy sowed by Palpatine to make the Jedi more receptive to Anakin's arrival.

Prove it.

The metachlorin count thing demystified The Force. Too bad. Everything you listed being "the will of the Force" could be explained as coincidence. I am reminded of religous zealots saying they see the "will of god" in certain things.

Brian

Again, the metochlorins aren't necessarily explained as that, it could be that they're just a sign, or side effect or an indicator rather than the cause.

And since the Force is shown to have an effect in the SW universe (if for anything else than just showing Palpatine the future and so either setting him up for a fall or allowing him to conqurer and let his own stupidity let him fall) it just cannot be explained as coincidence.

Ghost Rider wrote:
Yes, because if you don't grasp cause and effect, and you want to be a fucking moron.

Does anyone ever say the NR is the will of the Force, anyone ever say the Empire, The Sith Empire?

You're stretching your fucking coincidences to fit your moronic ideas of the subject instead of investigating.

Knife said so,

Knife wrote:'Balence in the Force', well for the galaxy you've swung from a corrupt, impotent Rebulic to a controling and structured, if not just totally evil and oppressive Empire, and then swung into the middle ground of a new begining.

If the will of the force is Balance, and the NR is balance, then NR is the will of the Force.

How would you tell the difference if The Force was external or internal?

How do we know Gravity is dumbfuck

Because we can observe the effects of gravity. All we can observe with the Force are people with supernatural powers. Why is it necessary to ascribe to some all-encompasing destiny to explain this?

Y'know I love fucktards like you who don't grasp how science works and try to pigeonhole shit, yet get the analogy wrong.

We know that a high midichlorin count is necessary to become a Jedi Knight. What is more logical, that the midichlorin count is necessary for supernatural powers, or that the midichlorin count allows for a Jedi to "hear" the force? Nevermind that it is actually a character who says this.

I know this is a sensitive topic. But why should The Force be externalized when it can be explained by the Midichlorin count?

Brian

brianeyci wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:
Yes, because if you don't grasp cause and effect, and you want to be a fucking moron.

Does anyone ever say the NR is the will of the Force, anyone ever say the Empire, The Sith Empire?

You're stretching your fucking coincidences to fit your moronic ideas of the subject instead of investigating.

Knife said so,

Knife wrote:'Balence in the Force', well for the galaxy you've swung from a corrupt, impotent Rebulic to a controling and structured, if not just totally evil and oppressive Empire, and then swung into the middle ground of a new begining.

If the will of the force is Balance, and the NR is balance, then NR is the will of the Force.

No, I said that it, imo, is the new begining. Not the NR.

We know that a high midichlorin count is necessary to become a Jedi Knight. What is more logical, that the midichlorin count is necessary for supernatural powers, or that the midichlorin count allows for a Jedi to "hear" the force? Nevermind that it is actually a character who says this.

I know this is a sensitive topic. But why should The Force be externalized when it can be explained by the Midichlorin count?

Brian

Why should it be internalized and not externalized?