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There seemed to have been a change on how droids are portrayed in the two trilogies:

Original Trilogy examples:

1) "We seem to be made to suffer!" said Threepio, which seem to suggest that droids do have some sort of self-awareness based on the situation they're in. It's difficult to think that that line was programmed to be spoken on cue when they undergo some sort of hardship.

2) "We don't serve their kind!" said Wuher, which suggest that droids are seen as another "kind" of life. If they were non-sentient Wuher would just have said something to the effect of "No droids allowed."

3) EV-9D9 has an abstract grasp of schadenfreud, taking pleasure in another droid's pain. Additionally, droids are portrayed to be able to feel pain (or something analogous to it, causing them to suffer in some way).

4) "I have decided that we shall stay here!" said Threepio, lying to the Ewoks about who gave the order without having Han telling him to do so. Does this imply that he has some sort of ego?

Prequel Trilogy examples:

1) Battledroids are seen to be cheap, disposable things, controlled by a central computer. They seem to walk into a firefight with no regards for their own safety.

2) Obi-Wan said, "If droids could think, there wouldn't be any of us left would there?" This is an ambiguous remark, but it suggests that droids can't think!

3) Threepio said, "Machines creating machines! How perverse!" Why would an autonomous factory be a perversion? For that matter, Threepio seem to be prissy for the sake of being prissy.

So it looks like to me that in the OT, droids have this hi-concept space fantasy role where they are considered just another form of autonomous life in the galaxy, where they not only think but also feel; although some organics do have some sort of prejudice against them. But in the PT, most droids seem to be programmed, unthinking, unfeeling machines, some which just happen to look and behave like organics.

Any comments?

3) Threepio said, "Machines creating machines! How perverse!" Why would an autonomous factory be a perversion? For that matter, Threepio seem to be prissy for the sake of being prissy.

Well, that's obviously the norm. But the trick is that C-3PO wouldn't know that, as he was built by hand on Tatooine and, since Tatooine houses no large droid factories that we know of and he didn't leave the planet until AotC, he would have no way of knowing that he was very much in the minority there.

Prequel droids can think. If anyone thinks the analysis droids weren't thinking, or the droids in TMP running from the explosion to try and save their lives, or for that matter, that the droid army officers aren't thinking entities, they need to re-watch the films. Same with R2-D2 deciding to up and go into the factory, simply because he knew that Anakin and Padme would get themselves killed without him.

Didn't Lucas say in the Empire of Dreams doco that they only act they way they do is because they're programmed to?

Old Plympto wrote: 2) "We don't serve their kind!" said Wuher, which suggest that droids are seen as another "kind" of life. If they were non-sentient Wuher would just have said something to the effect of "No droids allowed."

Actually, this is usually explained in-universe by the reason being that droids don't need to drink or ingest nourishment; hence, they are useless business in a bar, and will take up space that could be given to a customer which will actually drink or eat. Simple business sense, really... also, remember that it's not so far off from the Clone Wars, and a lingering predjudice against droids may remain on backwater worlds like Tatooine, which are still feeling the effects of the Wars (I wouldn't be surprised if we see a flash of a Separatist military movement in Tatooine during Episode III).

Lucas can bend over and take a lightsabre up the ass. His opinion isn't worth shit, and until he has Star Wars stamped on his face like a jaffa, he's not part of the canon heirarchy. I for one, don't accept backstage info as any form of canon.

Sure, he may be the series creator, but let's be honest, there are hundreds of people who have input, the actors, the writers, the directors, the costumers and espcially the special effects guys.

Since he's started to direct again, the series has gone down hill tragically. Let's face it, Lucas blew his wad on A New Hope, and the other two classic films were directed by others, and that's why they were so good. I have very little respect for Lucas left, and unless Revenge is another ESB, I never will. He's changed his opinion and stance before, and he likely will again. Until he has it set on the silver screen canon, I consider his word worth less than the paper some interviewer jots it down on, and I advise you all to do the same.

Tell that to Stravo.

Elheru Aran wrote:

Old Plympto wrote: 2) "We don't serve their kind!" said Wuher, which suggest that droids are seen as another "kind" of life. If they were non-sentient Wuher would just have said something to the effect of "No droids allowed."

Actually, this is usually explained in-universe by the reason being that droids don't need to drink or ingest nourishment; hence, they are useless business in a bar, and will take up space that could be given to a customer which will actually drink or eat. Simple business sense, really... also, remember that it's not so far off from the Clone Wars, and a lingering predjudice against droids may remain on backwater worlds like Tatooine, which are still feeling the effects of the Wars (I wouldn't be surprised if we see a flash of a Separatist military movement in Tatooine during Episode III).

Also the Guy doesn't LIKE droids. As such he put a scaner in that makes a noise when a droid enter the cantina. So you see he hates droids period. Droids in the OT are seen still as the grunge work doers of the Empire only sightly below slaves in social status. Threepio is a uncommon droid and as such is more whiny than others.(He whins more than luke does) Threepio does seem rather snobbish when he sees the droid factory in fact. He makes it sound like all droids should have been uilt like he was!

Grr. Arg. *polishes 'Lucas Licks Donkey Sphincter' badge*

Old Plympto wrote:2) Obi-Wan said, "If droids could think, there wouldn't be any of us left would there?" This is an ambiguous remark, but it suggests that droids can't think!

I think that suggests more that Obi Wan doesn't think very much of droids. A prejudice that seems common in the Star Wars universe.

The fact of the matter is that if the droids were programmed to act the way they do, it's the worst programming I can imagine. Why do you need machines to argue amongst themselves? Why would you program them to call each other names or express their supposidly artificial feelings to each other at all? Sure, whine away to your master if it make them look more human but why to another piece of equipment? That's just useless. R2 even hums to himself.

Remember also that Artoo and Threepio are unusual by the time of the OT in having not had memory wipes in quite some time. It seems that the wipes are what prevent the development of true personality. As far as Obi-Wan's comment goes, it's entirely possible he's never run into a droid that hasn't had the "proper" memory wipes.

4) "I have decided that we shall stay here!" said Threepio, lying to the Ewoks about who gave the order without having Han telling him to do so. Does this imply that he has some sort of ego?

I thought 3P0 was translating for Wicket when he says that. You can hear an ewok speaking right before 3P0 says that line.

I always assumed Wicket figured people were moving and decided to stay there.

Old Plympto wrote:4) "I have decided that we shall stay here!" said Threepio, lying to the Ewoks about who gave the order without having Han telling him to do so. Does this imply that he has some sort of ego?

How could he be lying to the Ewoks when the Ewoks don't understand Basic?

Old Plympto wrote:Prequel Trilogy examples:

1) Battledroids are seen to be cheap, disposable things, controlled by a central computer. They seem to walk into a firefight with no regards for their own safety.

TradeFed battle droids certainly do seem to be a cheap alternative to trained soldiers, but they do apparently have sentience. My theory is that the droid bodies are "waldos" remotely controlled by droid brains kept on the control ship. While they have the huge disadvantage of a single point of failure, they have a couple of advantages: 1) since the brain is safely isolated from the body, the droids don't fear damage to their bodies, and 2) the loyalty of the droids is ensured by holding their brains hostage.

Old Plympto wrote:
2) Obi-Wan said, "If droids could think, there wouldn't be any of us left would there?" This is an ambiguous remark, but it suggests that droids can't think!

According to the Kaminoans, the advantage of the clone soldiers over droids is their ability to think creatively. It's possible that organics are considerably more creative than existing droid brains, especially the cheap mass-produced brains used for battle droids.

Old Plympto wrote:3) Threepio said, "Machines creating machines! How perverse!" Why would an autonomous factory be a perversion? For that matter, Threepio seem to be prissy for the sake of being prissy.

Threepio has lead a sheltered life up to that point. He was assembled in a bedroom by a kid who doted on him, after all.

Old Plympto wrote:So it looks like to me that in the OT, droids have this hi-concept space fantasy role where they are considered just another form of autonomous life in the galaxy, where they not only think but also feel; although some organics do have some sort of prejudice against them. But in the PT, most droids seem to be programmed, unthinking, unfeeling machines, some which just happen to look and behave like organics.

I don't see much difference, really. There's a consistent prejudice in both the originals and the prequels: droids are property, not people. They're a slave race, and some people don't want to get too attached to them as a result. Other owners treat their droids more like family members; behavior varies from person to person.

Mark S wrote:

Old Plympto wrote:2) Obi-Wan said, "If droids could think, there wouldn't be any of us left would there?" This is an ambiguous remark, but it suggests that droids can't think!

I think that suggests more that Obi Wan doesn't think very much of droids. A prejudice that seems common in the Star Wars universe.

The fact of the matter is that if the droids were programmed to act the way they do, it's the worst programming I can imagine. Why do you need machines to argue amongst themselves? Why would you program them to call each other names or express their supposidly artificial feelings to each other at all? Sure, whine away to your master if it make them look more human but why to another piece of equipment? That's just useless. R2 even hums to himself.

I remember that in the Trawn Trilogy Joruus used to think of droids as an abomination, because they were alive and sentient but not a part of the force (I don't remember the exact words, it's been a couple of years since I read it... so correct me if I'm wrong). So I belive that since Jedis have a superior perspective of existence because they understand the force, they would think of droids (that are not part of the force) as inferior creatures, maybe that's what he meant.

Old Plympto wrote:So it looks like to me that in the OT, droids have this hi-concept space fantasy role where they are considered just another form of autonomous life in the galaxy, where they not only think but also feel; although some organics do have some sort of prejudice against them. But in the PT, most droids seem to be programmed, unthinking, unfeeling machines, some which just happen to look and behave like organics.

Any comments?

Well, you see, there are different kinds of droids. Some of them (like C-3PO and R2D2) are smart enough to understand humans. Others are simply remotelly controled by central computers. Not all of them are exactly the same.

It would certainly fit in with the PT-era Jedi arrogance.