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As of ROTJ when everyone is dead and all that is left is Luke does that mean that he is a Jedi Master since he is the last one left? Or is he a Jedi Knight until his powers develop more fully. And if so who decides that he is a master if no one is left?

Having not read much of the EU from what I've gathered reading the Thrawn triology and some KJA shit Luke does not exhibit some of the powers we see the prequels. The force speed that Qui Gon and Obi Wan exhibit on the Trade Fed ship in TPM. The multitude of examples of Force pushes seen in all the Prequels so far. The ability to absorb force lightning that Yoda displays in AOTC. Not to mention the fact that the Jedi in the prequels are better skilled with the lightsaber than Luke is. Compare even Obi Wan in TPM, as a padawan he is far more mobile and lethal than Luke was in any of the OT where he tends to wield his saber like a baseball bat.

Does this mean that the New Jedi Order will have to relearn or rediscover many of these skills or even lose them forever? And can he really be called a master with such obvious holes in his training.

well, he *would* be the most expierenced force user in the galaxy still alive.

who would say hes not?

He called himself a Jedi Knight, though after several years of recovering Jedi training materials and after starting the Jedi Academy (KJA, sorry I had to mention it) assumed the title of Jedi Master when he started teaching students.

Stravo wrote:As of ROTJ when everyone is dead and all that is left is Luke does that mean that he is a Jedi Master since he is the last one left? Or is he a Jedi Knight until his powers develop more fully. And if so who decides that he is a master if no one is left?

He is a Jedi Knight; he declares himself a Jedi Master after fighting in the aftermath of the Thrawn campaign and reviewing Sith/Palpatine's texts on Coruscant. He continues to retain the presumption after returning from his semi-abortive attempt to co-opt Palpatine from within as depicted in Dark Empire.

In the Prequel Trilogy, a Jedi Knight could be deemed a Jedi Master after either a.) training an apprentice to Knighthood, or b.) simply recognized by the Jedi Council for skill, wisdow, or achievement.

Stravo wrote:Having not read much of the EU from what I've gathered reading the Thrawn triology and some KJA shit Luke does not exhibit some of the powers we see the prequels.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Stravo wrote:The force speed that Qui Gon and Obi Wan exhibit on the Trade Fed ship in TPM.

I wasn't there aware there was a checklist for this sort of thing; technically a Padawan should be able to do this (Obi-Wan) and Yoda seemed prepared to recognize him as a Knight regardless of his ability to use Force speed or lack thereof. So I do not see what that would matter for a Master. Not to mention his feats in Dark Empire, such as the use of the doppleganger are far more impressive.

Stravo wrote:The multitude of examples of Force pushes seen in all the Prequels so far.

Luke's definitely Force pushed people and things around; in Dark Empire he quite notably the Dark Side Adepts and guards at the Citadel docks on Byss. He subtlely blows up a bunch of war droids with very fine telekinetic manipulation, and mindrapes a pack of genengineered battle dogs. He also Force pushes Palpatine around.

In the Thrawn Trilogy he yanks Mara away from C'boath's death explosion before it can hurt her.

And in the EU Master Halcyon has very little proficiency in telekinesis at all; he's naturally that way.

Stravo wrote:The ability to absorb force lightning that Yoda displays in AOTC.

One of, if not the most powerful and skilled Jedi we know of in the films is observed doing a feat, so you assume its a lower limit threshold for Jedi Masters? If so, woudn't Dooku, being a former Jedi Master, know better than to use Force lightning against Yoda, an obvious Master, and one of the best? Why would Yoda say "much you to learn, you still have, Dooku" if he, as a Master, would obviously know of the feats Yoda accomplished? Why couldn't Obi-Wan, a Master, do the same, then?

Stravo wrote:Not to mention the fact that the Jedi in the prequels are better skilled with the lightsaber than Luke is.

Yet many Jedi Masters (and even a Jedi Council Member) at Geonosis fell long before Padawans (including Anakin) did; one would imagine if there were requirements or even an extraordinarily typical and strong correlation between Mastery in the Order and swordsmanship that the Padawans would be the first to fall across the board, with survivors being the rare exception and surviving Masters being the most typical.

And Luke outfights Palpatine in a lightsabre duel aboard HIMS Eclipse in Dark Empire even.

Stravo wrote:Compare even Obi Wan in TPM, as a padawan he is far more mobile and lethal than Luke was in any of the OT where he tends to wield his saber like a baseball bat.

So he's a better swordsman - Yoda was clearly ready to accept his Knighthood even despite the rudimentary quality of his swordsmanship, so I doubt it matters in Mastery.

Stravo wrote:Does this mean that the New Jedi Order will have to relearn or rediscover many of these skills or even lose them forever? And can he really be called a master with such obvious holes in his training.

Luke self-trains and relies on inspiration from the Force and adapts what knowledge he can recover from Force users and old texts throughout; not to mention the Holocron and his tutolege under Emperor Palpatine on Byss as part of Luke's plan to co-opt Palpatine from within.

If he's the last Jedi left, what's to stop him from renaming Jedi to Pants, and calling himself the Big Kahuna of Pants, instead of Jedi Master?

Seriously, what's in a title? Nobody's going to ask for his ID or Jedi diploma before letting him use his abilities.

Stravo wrote:Not to mention the fact that the Jedi in the prequels are better skilled with the lightsaber than Luke is. Compare even Obi Wan in TPM, as a padawan he is far more mobile and lethal than Luke was in any of the OT where he tends to wield his saber like a baseball bat.

Prequel lightsabre fighting looks hot, but really isn't that great, it's extravagant and over-confident, and it represents the jedi order. Luke's lightsabre skills (or lack thereof) are direct, brutal and effective. Luke is more powerful than Vader, there is no Jedi ever born who has as much raw talent as Luke Skywalker, and in the most obvious baseball bat part of the OT, where he severs his father's hand, I very much doubt any of them would be able to do any better. Style over substance won't change the fact that jedi duelling is as much spiritual as physical, and there, he'd crush them. This is a guy who could, if he had a mind to, have destroyed Vader and the Emperor, both of whom are more fearsome lightsabre combattants than any Jedi Master, even Yoda (Well, I don't know about Yoda vs Vader).

NecronLord wrote:
Prequel lightsabre fighting looks hot, but really isn't that great, it's extravagant and over-confident, and it represents the jedi order. Luke's lightsabre skills (or lack thereof) are direct, brutal and effective. Luke is more powerful than Vader, there is no Jedi ever born who has as much raw talent as Luke Skywalker,

What about Kyp?

Crazedwraith wrote:

NecronLord wrote:
Prequel lightsabre fighting looks hot, but really isn't that great, it's extravagant and over-confident, and it represents the jedi order. Luke's lightsabre skills (or lack thereof) are direct, brutal and effective. Luke is more powerful than Vader, there is no Jedi ever born who has as much raw talent as Luke Skywalker,

What about Kyp?

Kyp has more power then Luke.

Crazedwraith wrote:What about Kyp?

Who's he, and where does he appear in the canon?

Kyp and the like being more powerful than Luke is part of the "Luke sucks" EU brainbug.

NecronLord wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:What about Kyp?

Who's he, and where does he appear in the canon?

Kyp and the like being more powerful than Luke is part of the "Luke sucks" EU brainbug.

Plus Kyp only beat Luke with the help of a Sith Lord using a Sith Temple to magnify his powers.

NecronLord wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:What about Kyp?

Who's he, and where does he appear in the canon?

Kyp and the like being more powerful than Luke is part of the "Luke sucks" EU brainbug.

To be fair EU (or at least Allston) doesn't say Kyps more powerful than Luke. Only that he thinks hes more powerful. And is more incline to showing off with direct uses of the force while Luke concentrates on the mediative side of the force.

How ever Luke can raise all sorts of hell when he lets lose. I seem to remember Luke WTFPWNING all those weird Vong Jedi in The Unifying Force.

Lord Pounder wrote:How ever Luke can raise all sorts of hell when he lets lose. I seem to remember Luke WTFPWNING all those weird Vong Jedi in The Unifying Force.

How was his performance against the Vong in general? I never read any novels but I was horrified by how badly they pussified Luke in the EU when I stopped reading it.

Stravo wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:How ever Luke can raise all sorts of hell when he lets lose. I seem to remember Luke WTFPWNING all those weird Vong Jedi in The Unifying Force.

How was his performance against the Vong in general? I never read any novels but I was horrified by how badly they pussified Luke in the EU when I stopped reading it.

He was strong when forced to fight, no Vong ever came close to killing him in combat, his major problem was being stuck there like a 5th wheel because he was suposed to have been killed off, so he spends too much time pondering his place in the Force etc.

Luke also killed Supreme Overlord Shirmrra and his 7 super warriors.

I think the problem was in part addressed by my thread asking about why Luke was such a pussy in a lot of the EU when by all rights he should've been an unstoppable force (pun intended). Luke's had a very abortive and crash course training program. Most Jedis train from when they're little children for years and years. All Luke had was the little time spent with Yoda, and Luke's baptism into Knighthood was through fire.

Since then, he's had no role models but Dark Jedis and had to learn on his own from much searching. It seems that he's often afraid to use his powers, afraid to touch the darkside after touching it once, Mara pointed out in the Visions of the Future, that it's been wrapped around him ever since.

So as to his right to the title Master, he's the only one left with knowledge passed down and hard earned, plus his many trials by fire where he went in with the weight of the galaxy hanging on his ordeals, and got through stronger each time.

President Sharky wrote:Luke also killed Supreme Overlord Shirmrra and his 7 super warriors.

I mentioned that already, what are you an echo?

Lord Pounder wrote:

President Sharky wrote:Luke also killed Supreme Overlord Shirmrra and his 7 super warriors.

I mentioned that already, what are you an echo?

Don't be an asshole; he probably just didn't see it.

I wasn't aware every mistake was no a deep and complete and intentional character flaw.

Lord Pounder wrote:How ever Luke can raise all sorts of hell when he lets lose. I seem to remember Luke WTFPWNING all those weird Vong Jedi in The Unifying Force.

That came from several factors as I see it. Luke had had a little over a year of to ponder the infoprmation on the nature of the Force that Vergere gave him in Destiny's Way and to begin once again breaking down his preconceptions. With Jacen, it was clearly easier since he was younger, but Luke acknowledges to Jacen in TUF that his training was rushed and he doesn't fully understand the Force. In addition, during the fight to Shimrra's coffer, Luke is described as not be there in spirit, but rather as a nexus to the Force. He was allowing the Force to guide his actions, thus accounting for the ferocity and Force Lightning used against Shimrra's Slayers; after all, the fate of the galaxy rested on Luke's team stopping the Supreme Overlord. But Jacen was able to, during the fight against Onimi, open himself to the Force more fully than ever, in part due to Vergere's lessons and his experiences in Traitor.

Even before then Luke pwned every Vong warrior he fought.

Lord Pounder wrote:Even before then Luke pwned every Vong warrior he fought.

Yes, but not without great difficulty. Luke was reluctant and uncertain of whether or not to show mercy or edge against a foe that contradicted everything he had been taught by Yoda and Obi-Wan. It wasn't until Vergere, who had after all spent 50 years among the Yuuzhan Vong, gave her opinions on the matter that Luke was able to overcome that self-doubt and begin a more effective coordination of the Jedi.

NecronLord wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:What about Kyp?

Who's he, and where does he appear in the canon?

Kyp and the like being more powerful than Luke is part of the "Luke sucks" EU brainbug.

Kyp Durron is the ONLY Jedi with more raw force potential than Luke. However, his control sucks compared to Luke.

There is no "Luke sucks" brainbug. When he cuts loose, he CUTS LOOSE. Wiping out Shimrra and all ten of his superwarriors in TUF, or wiping out a gang of Yuuzhan Vong by pelting them with dozens of flying rocks and boulders in Dark Tide, for example.

The thing with Luke in the EU is that he's a wimp, and is afraid that if he actually USES his abilities he'll go to the dark side. But his powers remain uber.

Stravo wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:How ever Luke can raise all sorts of hell when he lets lose. I seem to remember Luke WTFPWNING all those weird Vong Jedi in The Unifying Force.

How was his performance against the Vong in general? I never read any novels but I was horrified by how badly they pussified Luke in the EU when I stopped reading it.

He was scared of turning to the dark side so he avoided fighting him like a wuss. Stupid, I know. But whenever he was forced to fight (to save Jacen, or to save Mara, or when he finally got over his dark side fear in the last book) he kicked rear.

Praxis wrote:He was scared of turning to the dark side so he avoided fighting him like a wuss. Stupid, I know. But whenever he was forced to fight (to save Jacen, or to save Mara, or when he finally got over his dark side fear in the last book) he kicked rear.

I don't think it's fair to say he was a wuss. It's what he was taught by Obi-Wan and Yoda, and as the "first of the new," he had an incredible burden on him. Luke had to lead all the Jedi by example; anger and aggression lead the Dark Side. Why would he put the galaxy at stake with a new wave of Jedi if there still might be a peaceful solution?

NecronLord wrote:

Stravo wrote:Not to mention the fact that the Jedi in the prequels are better skilled with the lightsaber than Luke is. Compare even Obi Wan in TPM, as a padawan he is far more mobile and lethal than Luke was in any of the OT where he tends to wield his saber like a baseball bat.

Prequel lightsabre fighting looks hot, but really isn't that great, it's extravagant and over-confident, and it represents the jedi order. Luke's lightsabre skills (or lack thereof) are direct, brutal and effective. Luke is more powerful than Vader, there is no Jedi ever born who has as much raw talent as Luke Skywalker, and in the most obvious baseball bat part of the OT, where he severs his father's hand, I very much doubt any of them would be able to do any better. Style over substance won't change the fact that jedi duelling is as much spiritual as physical, and there, he'd crush them. This is a guy who could, if he had a mind to, have destroyed Vader and the Emperor, both of whom are more fearsome lightsabre combattants than any Jedi Master, even Yoda (Well, I don't know about Yoda vs Vader).

Actually, Luke's lightsaber fighting style makes sense. It's almost perfect longsword style, with very good stance (although the necessary theatrical pauses and long clinches to build suspense). By contrast, the prequel style is the sort of sword-fighting that would get a medieval or renaissance swordsman dead in about three seconds. Too showy, too flashy, and too damn impractical.