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I've always understood the Empire to be extremely pro-human. Extending that out, I was under the impression that the Emperor didn't actually like non-humans.

Because of that I've always assumed Darth Maul was a cosmetically altered human. I thought Sidious would never train a non-human. But the EU canon has stated that Darth Maul is, in fact, another species.

Is it ever explained why Darth Maul was chosen by Sidious?

CROM

Crom wrote:I've always understood the Empire to be extremely pro-human. Extending that out, I was under the impression that the Emperor didn't actually like non-humans.

Because of that I've always assumed Darth Maul was a cosmetically altered human. I thought Sidious would never train a non-human. But the EU canon has stated that Darth Maul is, in fact, another species.

Is it ever explained why Darth Maul was chosen by Sidious?

CROM

I always assumed he ws an alien myself...

Maul is of the species "Zabrak." There is also a Jedi-Master on the Jedi Council of the same species, though he was not tatooed.

Even the sources that claim that the Empire was highly racist in its laws also state that many aliens with appearances very similar to humans were given the benefit of the doubt. It is likely that Maul would have received similar treatment.

Crom wrote:I've always understood the Empire to be extremely pro-human. Extending that out, I was under the impression that the Emperor didn't actually like non-humans.

Because of that I've always assumed Darth Maul was a cosmetically altered human. I thought Sidious would never train a non-human. But the EU canon has stated that Darth Maul is, in fact, another species.

Is it ever explained why Darth Maul was chosen by Sidious?

CROM

It's been suggested that the notion that the Empire is racist is propaganda, but I don't buy that bullshit. Palpatine did accept Admiral Thrawn, but only after he had proven himself a hundred times over. Perhaps Darth Maul had to prove himself extensively to Sidious before he would accept him as his apprentice.

It's because he is an alien.

I've heard that a possible reason for the claim of the Emperor being xenophobic was due to Rebel propoganda.

It's possible that the Emperor isn't xenophobic; the Empire is.

True Spanky. Or it could be that Palpatine valued a Brute Dark Jedi? Looking for talents not species, possibly more evidence Palpatine isn't Xenophobic.

I remember reading in the interview Time did with George Lucas, Lucas stated very clearly that despite his odd form, Darth Maul is basically us. While that probably doesn't mean that Maul is human, it does mean that Maul is basically the same as humans, even though his species is different.

I think what he meant is that Darth Maul is to be viewed by the audience basically as a person and not as a monster.

All it really confirms is the fact that Zabraks are one of many alien species that are very similar to Humans.

He might not have cared personally, the Empires racism is suppose to date to the end of the Republic and he likely embraced it for political reasons. Most likely Sidious chose him because he was strong in the force and yet unknown to the Jedi.

I think it was because of Maul's talents with the lightsaber(he was able to hold off two of the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy at the same time, TPM novelization) that he made an exception, like he did with Thrawn.

anarchistbunny wrote:I think it was because of Maul's talents with the lightsaber(he was able to hold off two of the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy at the same time, TPM novelization) that he made an exception, like he did with Thrawn.

But he must have been trained by Palpatine. The books say he was trained from infancy, indicating that Palpatine had not discriminated against him. One can, of course, argue that it was a choice made of necessity, but it dos not seem reasonable to believe that there were NO other candidates (though it may be that none of the others were as skilled).

Master of Ossus wrote:Maul is of the species "Zabrak." There is also a Jedi-Master on the Jedi Council of the same species, though he was not tatooed.

Actually, he was, but it was faint. Just a few lines on his face

[/nitpick]

Master of Ossus wrote:

anarchistbunny wrote:I think it was because of Maul's talents with the lightsaber(he was able to hold off two of the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy at the same time, TPM novelization) that he made an exception, like he did with Thrawn.

But he must have been trained by Palpatine. The books say he was trained from infancy, indicating that Palpatine had not discriminated against him. One can, of course, argue that it was a choice made of necessity, but it dos not seem reasonable to believe that there were NO other candidates (though it may be that none of the others were as skilled).

Or its possible that he trained him as nothing but a killing machine, a puppet and a tool with little or no respect. It's clear Darth Maul is a bit of the dumb side (at least in terms of seeing the big picture) and that could be Palpy using him.

And keep in mind that the pawns he used and abused most cruelly were all aliens. It's possible he's a xenophobe but is willing to use them when the need be.

Of course some Sidious twist comes in the last movie.

How is Maul supposed to be a dumb? I mean he was sent by himself to take care of Amidala and then the two jedi. I assume that he was not asking for directions from Sidious the whole time. It seems like he's a covert operations type. He follows his orders without question but he is smart in being able to carry them out without help.

neoolong wrote:How is Maul supposed to be a dumb? I mean he was sent by himself to take care of Amidala and then the two jedi. I assume that he was not asking for directions from Sidious the whole time. It seems like he's a covert operations type. He follows his orders without question but he is smart in being able to carry them out without help.

He's good and hunting and killing but doesn't seem to think beyond that. Read Shadow Hunter, he doesn't think too much beyond simple retribution and destruction. A smart killing machine but not much more.

Stormbringer wrote:

neoolong wrote:How is Maul supposed to be a dumb? I mean he was sent by himself to take care of Amidala and then the two jedi. I assume that he was not asking for directions from Sidious the whole time. It seems like he's a covert operations type. He follows his orders without question but he is smart in being able to carry them out without help.

He's good and hunting and killing but doesn't seem to think beyond that. Read Shadow Hunter, he doesn't think too much beyond simple retribution and destruction. A smart killing machine but not much more.

Ah, that's what I meant. He's not a fricking idiot, but he isn't the most well-rounded intelligent individual. He just has the intelligence to do his job and doesn't think much beyond that.

neoolong wrote:Ah, that's what I meant. He's not a fricking idiot, but he isn't the most well-rounded intelligent individual. He just has the intelligence to do his job and doesn't think much beyond that.

Exactly, which makes me think that he's more a tool of Palpatine's than a trusted apprentice like Count Dooku.

Stormbringer wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:

anarchistbunny wrote:I think it was because of Maul's talents with the lightsaber(he was able to hold off two of the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy at the same time, TPM novelization) that he made an exception, like he did with Thrawn.

But he must have been trained by Palpatine. The books say he was trained from infancy, indicating that Palpatine had not discriminated against him. One can, of course, argue that it was a choice made of necessity, but it dos not seem reasonable to believe that there were NO other candidates (though it may be that none of the others were as skilled).

Or its possible that he trained him as nothing but a killing machine, a puppet and a tool with little or no respect. It's clear Darth Maul is a bit of the dumb side (at least in terms of seeing the big picture) and that could be Palpy using him.
.

Maul is far from dumb. Read "Shadow Hunter". He is, however, a well trained covert ops and ruthless assassin with vicious determination.

neoolong wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:

neoolong wrote:How is Maul supposed to be a dumb? I mean he was sent by himself to take care of Amidala and then the two jedi. I assume that he was not asking for directions from Sidious the whole time. It seems like he's a covert operations type. He follows his orders without question but he is smart in being able to carry them out without help.

He's good and hunting and killing but doesn't seem to think beyond that. Read Shadow Hunter, he doesn't think too much beyond simple retribution and destruction. A smart killing machine but not much more.

Ah, that's what I meant. He's not a fricking idiot, but he isn't the most well-rounded intelligent individual. He just has the intelligence to do his job and doesn't think much beyond that.

He focuses on the task at hand. He is trained to think as an assassin, not like an ordinary person. Those other thoughts or emotions would/could cloud his judgement or lead to a distraction. He's efficient, not narrow-minded.

Retribution and destruction are key aspects of Darkside training. He is constantly focusing on them because those particular feelings/emotions help him channel the Darkside to fuel him.

Maul is a minion, a living weapon not a viable replacement for Palpy. At the point in time that Palpy had Maul, an assasin was what Palpy needed.

Palpatine hated everyone and everything. He publicly demostrated his hatered for selected groups purely for political reasons and would change his public stance according to his needs at the time.

Sea Skimmer wrote:He might not have cared personally, the Empires racism is suppose to date to the end of the Republic and he likely embraced it for political reasons. Most likely Sidious chose him because he was strong in the force and yet unknown to the Jedi.

Perhaps it was a propaganda move that allowed Palpatine to declare the Empire in the first place. Note that not only is the Republican Senate seems to be composed of quite a few alien races, but the Secessionists that Palpatine's assistant Dooku was egging on were exclusively nonhuman.

Palpatine could have claimed the nonhuman races of the Senate were sympathetic to the Secessionist cause, gaining support among the human and more human-looking races, and allowing him to take the next step beyond emergency powers and declare an Empire.

Durran Korr wrote:

It's been suggested that the notion that the Empire is racist is propaganda, but I don't buy that bullshit. Palpatine did accept Admiral Thrawn, but only after he had proven himself a hundred times over. Perhaps Darth Maul had to prove himself extensively to Sidious before he would accept him as his apprentice.

Maul was trained from infancy, by Sidious. There was no racism involed their, its pretty clear that the number of human force sensitives out number all the alien candidates combined. Forget about the Jedi counsel its not indicative of the jedi as a whole; look at the younglings (one alien child), look at the arena battle (mostly humans). If Sidious had wanted a human he could have easily gotten one.

Knife wrote:

Maul is a minion, a living weapon not a viable replacement for Palpy. At the point in time that Palpy had Maul, an assasin was what Palpy needed.

Irrelevent, Palpatine did not train Tyranus or Vader to sucede him either. Both of them are human. Palpatine had broken the Sith tradition, he had transended death (the cloning thing) and needed no heir.


Stormbringer wrote:

Exactly, which makes me think that he's more a tool of Palpatine's than a trusted apprentice like Count Dooku.

Everyone he trained: Sith Lords, Hands, dark jedi, Sith Acolytes and Mages; all were merely tools. Count Dooku was a patsy just like all the others. Clearly Maul could not have been as effective at organizing the Cofederacy of Independent Systems as Dooku was but, that makes him no less trusted as an apprentice as Dooku.


The bottom line is that they're is absolutely no evidence that Palpatine was racist. We have no racist actions or comments from him at all. For all we know his master might have been an alien. Its ridiculous how people attribute all kind of crimes to Palpatine without evidence simply because he is evil. I recall someone suggesting that he was a rapist, because he's evil. Here's a tip: evil people rarely think that they are evil, and racists never ever consider themselves racist.

This is a dead issue clearly some people in the empire are racist (mind you though that just because they have slavery does not necessarily imply racism, they enslave humans to you know). But, they are almost certainly racists in the Alliance, the New Republic, and the Old Republic (which allowed human slavery within its borders in TPM). Lets remember that even in Nazi Germany, Apartide South Africa, and the America's southern states: where racism was government endorsed not every citzen, and government official supported it.

Spartan: I definetly agree with you that Palpatine doesn't have to be racist. I think the explanation that he simply had plenty of racist working for him make as much sense.

But Maul wasn't very well trained. He was tough and a good assasian but there wasn't much to him beyond that. Maul was "a living weapon" and not much good for anything else.

Dooku is carely a much more well trained and rounded henchman, much like Vader was.

And there are plenty of racists that consider themselves such and are proud of the fact. Look at arminus for example.

Palpatine broke the Sith tradition after he won the little cold war between the Sith and Jedi. Before hand he had to keep a low profile as Sidious, and a assasin type opertive like Mual is perfect in this situation.

Obviously, Palpy used his minions to further his own goals but his choises of students and henchmen reflect his needs at the time. His hatred of "aliens" is a political shield to hide that he hates everyone and everything. He is not a racist, but anti-life and anti-freedom.

Stormbringer wrote:

Spartan: I definetly agree with you that Palpatine doesn't have to be racist. I think the explanation that he simply had plenty of racist working for him make as much sense.

But Maul wasn't very well trained. He was tough and a good assasian but there wasn't much to him beyond that. Maul was "a living weapon" and not much good for anything else.

Dooku is carely a much more well trained and rounded henchman, much like Vader was.

And there are plenty of racists that consider themselves such and are proud of the fact. Look at arminus for example.

I completely agree that Maul was not fully trained. I brought up the point a while ago that both Vader and Maul are not true Sith Lords in the old school sense of the word. They are both lacking in ability and understanding of the Sith teachings. Now Dooku is a completely different case. Palpatine needed a new apprentice and didn't have time to start from scratch. But did he convert a far more gullible and Jedi Knight or Padawan? No, sure Dooku would be tempting because of his difference of opinion with the the Jedi. But that can't be all Dooku was one of the most powerful and well regarded Jedi masters. Paply needed someone strong to offset the jedi numbers, clearly Maul turned out to be far to weak.

Now, since Dooku was already a powerful jedi master. Palpy would have to come clean and show him some of the advance Sith powers. The stuff he taught Vader and Maul would have been academic to him. Which is why Dooku was taught to use force lightning. Palpy needed Dooku, and would have to teach him the good "stuff" to gain his loyalty. I have no doubt that the both planned to off each other, and they probably both new it too.

I don't think that it a matter of being better or more trained, I doubt there is that much difference between the training of a Sith Lord and Jedi Master.


Knife wrote:

Palpatine broke the Sith tradition after he won the little cold war between the Sith and Jedi. Before hand he had to keep a low profile as Sidious, and a assasin type opertive like Mual is perfect in this situation.

Obviously, Palpy used his minions to further his own goals but his choises of students and henchmen reflect his needs at the time. His hatred of "aliens" is a political shield to hide that he hates everyone and everything. He is not a racist, but anti-life and anti-freedom.

I feel where your coming for Knife, and agree to a point. But I don't think Palpy is anti-life. Is he an evil opportunist yes? YES. But he is not insane, at least not during the OT. He does not want to kill everyone, he just wants to control everyone. He's a meglamaniac, think Doctor Doom. He truly believes that he's the best person to decide the fate of the Galaxy.