StarDestroyer.Net BBS

as dalton's site has mentioned, the empire has some 350 million ships , which is a low militarization.

my question is, what could they produce if they went all out, ww2 style? assume 2 yrs to prepare.

Billions of ISDs.

Hundreds of DS1s.

Trillions of TIEs.

One DS2 is equal to 4 billion ISDs, and it was to be completed in ten months. With the same resources, a DS1 could be constructed every 1.6 days.

So, suffice is to say this: Alot.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote: With the same resources, a DS1 could be constructed every 1.6 days.

Assuming there is no component that has a fixed length of construction.

Sharp-kun wrote:

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote: With the same resources, a DS1 could be constructed every 1.6 days.

Assuming there is no component that has a fixed length of construction.

I would imagine that 1.6 days would be the rate at which new DS1s entered service as opposed to the actual construction time, even with the DSII crew there are bound to be things that take a while to build but then we are dealing with a civilization that probably has construction tricks up its sleeve we can't imagine. There is a point at which adding more droids and more workers to do a job won't help and will instead hinder the task. I'm inclined to think that the DSII crew working on the DSI would be literally stepping on each other's toes and getting in the way. Sort of like having too many cooks in the kitchen at the same time...except the kitchen is a 160 km diameter ball of doom....

Sharp-kun wrote: Assuming there is no component that has a fixed length of construction.

Then build a hundred of them simultaneously.

The scale of the Imperial war machine pales often in comparisons in mass and power and the sheer immensity of engineering undertaking when compared to either of the enormous Death Stars and in comparisons before manpower when compared to the population of Coruscant (disregarding that like New York City or Washington, D.C., there are other cityworlds in the Core).

What is the ultimate limit on ship size? Death Star II (though admittably concerns of practical manouverability may constrain vessels at much much smaller scales). What's the ultimate limit on political will and raw materials for construction of war materiel? Death Star II.

Essentially the Imperial war machine could be just as large and grandiose as Palpatine whimed. Then you begin to see just how silly and delusional the EU scales are, and how conservative and conceding even some of the revisionist estimates and theories are (like that of Ender and The Duchess).

The long term goals of Palpatine's New Order were to use the Rebel Threat to allow for a truly massive buildup; I beleive the highest figure stated by any reliable source is twenty-four Eclipse class Dreadnoughts per sector(Replacing the 24 ISD's doing that job in the early New Order), and one Sovereign class per planet. I could be wrong, been ages since I read Dark Empire.

Was this his plan all along or post-Endor? Either way, they probably call for a Death Star II or III as his flagship. Its the Palpatine way

Just out of curiosity, how was the ten-month figure obtained? I assume it's for the partially constructed, semi-operational DS2.

FOG3 wrote:Just out of curiosity, how was the ten-month figure obtained? I assume it's for the partially constructed, semi-operational DS2.

According to the main site the figure comes from Shadows of the Empire. The ten month figure is for the finished DS2; what was seen in ROTJ was completed in six months.

EDIT: I should mention that I don't remember if the ten month figure was ever explicitly stated, but it can be extrapolated easily enough knowing the DS2 was 60% complete after six months.

Just thought I'd point out what I said in the DS thread. According to the ITW, Palpatine had the DSII constructed slowly, in other words, it could have been completed in less than 10 months

Here's the quote:

"Only Vader and a few of the Emperor's advisors grasped that Palpatine's planin leaving so much of the base unfinished was to decieve the Alliance into thinking that the Superlaser would not be operational when the Rebels launched their attack"(p.43).

SirNitram wrote:The long term goals of Palpatine's New Order were to use the Rebel Threat to allow for a truly massive buildup; I beleive the highest figure stated by any reliable source is twenty-four Eclipse class Dreadnoughts per sector(Replacing the 24 ISD's doing that job in the early New Order), and one Sovereign class per planet. I could be wrong, been ages since I read Dark Empire.

Uh, Dark Empire says nothing to the effect.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

SirNitram wrote:The long term goals of Palpatine's New Order were to use the Rebel Threat to allow for a truly massive buildup; I beleive the highest figure stated by any reliable source is twenty-four Eclipse class Dreadnoughts per sector(Replacing the 24 ISD's doing that job in the early New Order), and one Sovereign class per planet. I could be wrong, been ages since I read Dark Empire.

Uh, Dark Empire says nothing to the effect.

I think he's referring to the Source Book, not the graphic novel itself.

So that's about 12 million Sovereign-class warships, and 288,000 Eclipse classes.

Neat.

Plus a few fleets of ISDs and handful of DSes lying around, I expect.

The Original Nex wrote:Just thought I'd point out what I said in the DS thread. According to the ITW, Palpatine had the DSII constructed slowly, in other words, it could have been completed in less than 10 months

Here's the quote:

"Only Vader and a few of the Emperor's advisors grasped that Palpatine's planin leaving so much of the base unfinished was to decieve the Alliance into thinking that the Superlaser would not be operational when the Rebels launched their attack"(p.43).

Interesting interpretation of that quote. If the DS 2 had been constructed slowly why did the emperor have to send Vader to 'motivate' the workforces instead sending more of them?
From the novelisation it is quite clear that the DS was not left unfinished, only it was not finishad by the time the emperor arrived. (In other words the emperor planned his visit surprisingly early, not the construction to be finnished too late.)

The upper limit of the militarization comes from maintenance. All ships has maintenance costs and those are raising exponentially with the age of the ship. And even an extremely well maintained ship has to be scrapped or completely rebuilt after 'some' time. If we assume that after 100 years an SW military ship needs such a replacement, it means that every single world needs to pay one percent of a new Sovereign and ~0.002 of a new Eclipse (plus their maintenance (crew 'creation', feeding, etc.)) in each year, and it does not involve combat losses at all.

Maintenance may be a vastly less important matter in the SWU; with none of the exposure to the natural elements that afflicts modern military materiel.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Maintenance may be a vastly less important matter in the SWU; with none of the exposure to the natural elements that afflicts modern military materiel.

With common multi- thousand g accelerations, continuous micro-meteor hits or shield usage? Interesting.
In TESB, the Avenger had quite a quantity of junk, hadn't it?

vakundok wrote:

The Original Nex wrote:Just thought I'd point out what I said in the DS thread. According to the ITW, Palpatine had the DSII constructed slowly, in other words, it could have been completed in less than 10 months

Here's the quote:

"Only Vader and a few of the Emperor's advisors grasped that Palpatine's planin leaving so much of the base unfinished was to decieve the Alliance into thinking that the Superlaser would not be operational when the Rebels launched their attack"(p.43).

Interesting interpretation of that quote. If the DS 2 had been constructed slowly why did the emperor have to send Vader to 'motivate' the workforces instead sending more of them?
From the novelisation it is quite clear that the DS was not left unfinished, only it was not finishad by the time the emperor arrived. (In other words the emperor planned his visit surprisingly early, not the construction to be finnished too late.)

The ITW suggests he was secretly behind the whole thing. Unless I'm completely misinterpreting the quote, Palpatine purposfully did not give Jerjerrod enough men but didn't deign to tell the Moff.

In any case, Jerjerrod's line from RotJ is quite clear the DSII could be completed faster if he had more men,

"...I need more men!"

If he had more men, the station would be completed faster.

vakundok wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Maintenance may be a vastly less important matter in the SWU; with none of the exposure to the natural elements that afflicts modern military materiel.

With common multi- thousand g accelerations, continuous micro-meteor hits or shield usage? Interesting.
In TESB, the Avenger had quite a quantity of junk, hadn't it?

Yet the Invincible-class was quite competent in service after three thousand years.

SCVN 2812 wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

SirNitram wrote:The long term goals of Palpatine's New Order were to use the Rebel Threat to allow for a truly massive buildup; I beleive the highest figure stated by any reliable source is twenty-four Eclipse class Dreadnoughts per sector(Replacing the 24 ISD's doing that job in the early New Order), and one Sovereign class per planet. I could be wrong, been ages since I read Dark Empire.

Uh, Dark Empire says nothing to the effect.

I think he's referring to the Source Book, not the graphic novel itself.

Got it in one. And yes, this is an absurd number of very large hulls. This occupies the same 'End goal' as 'Every world will be like Byss'.

SirNitram wrote: Uh, Dark Empire says nothing to the effect.

I think he's referring to the Source Book, not the graphic novel itself.[/quote]

Got it in one. And yes, this is an absurd number of very large hulls. This occupies the same 'End goal' as 'Every world will be like Byss'.[/quote]

Remember where it might be mentioned? I could probably try to look it up to see if you remembered correctly. ( And maybe you were thinking of the Sovereigns, not the Eclipse)

Incidentally, Cracken's Threat Dossier suggests that Executor-class vessels (and those like them) were designated as Sector-level command ships, which suggests 1 per sector (easily thousands of them, in other words.)

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

vakundok wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Maintenance may be a vastly less important matter in the SWU; with none of the exposure to the natural elements that afflicts modern military materiel.

With common multi- thousand g accelerations, continuous micro-meteor hits or shield usage? Interesting.
In TESB, the Avenger had quite a quantity of junk, hadn't it?

Yet the Invincible-class was quite competent in service after three thousand years.

Against pirates and smugglers. Its another matter as to whether they are capable against modern warships.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

I think he's referring to the Source Book, not the graphic novel itself.

Got it in one. And yes, this is an absurd number of very large hulls. This occupies the same 'End goal' as 'Every world will be like Byss'.

Remember where it might be mentioned? I could probably try to look it up to see if you remembered correctly. ( And maybe you were thinking of the Sovereigns, not the Eclipse)

Couldn't give you a page number, sorry. But it's possible I mixed up the Sovvies as being the new Sector-level command ships, nudging out the planned Executor run.

Incidentally, Cracken's Threat Dossier suggests that Executor-class vessels (and those like them) were designated as Sector-level command ships, which suggests 1 per sector (easily thousands of them, in other words.)

Yea, I remembered that. Pity only eight or so got finished, according to the actual sources.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

vakundok wrote:With common multi- thousand g accelerations, continuous micro-meteor hits or shield usage? Interesting.
In TESB, the Avenger had quite a quantity of junk, hadn't it?

Yet the Invincible-class was quite competent in service after three thousand years.

Against pirates and smugglers. Its another matter as to whether they are capable against modern warships.

And of course Primus is overlooking how massively overhauled the Vincies were. A full bloody third of her interior spaces were replaced with engines, just to keep up with smugglers! After all, why did the CSA buy them?

These ships were 3,000 years behind the cutting edge of technology and were not in high demand for any modern navy and therefor they would be inexpensive. And secondly, these ships would only be engaging in piracy prevention, smuggling interdiction and system patrol.

They sucked so much you could pick them up on the cheap. After all, they'd only fight smugglers.

The Dreadnaught Heavy Cruisers cannot challenge Imperial battle cruisers, but they were more than sufficient to contain sorry smuggling vessels and tramp freighters.

Explicitly stating they suck ass against warships. They were retired within decades of creation and sold off.(All quotes from the CSA sourcebook.)

The Original Nex wrote:In any case, Jerjerrod's line from RotJ is quite clear the DSII could be completed faster if he had more men,

"...I need more men!"

If he had more men, the station would be completed faster.

True. Likely not 100% (of the theoretical maximum building capability of the empire) was used for the DS II. However, it can but does not necceserely mean that the unused percentage could have been assigned to the project without seriously harming the empire. (In other words it could be 100% of the practical building capabilty.) (For example, I think a US carrier would suffer lacking new parts for a few months.)

The Original Nex wrote:The ITW suggests he was secretly behind the whole thing. Unless I'm completely misinterpreting the quote, Palpatine purposfully did not give Jerjerrod enough men but didn't deign to tell the Moff.

You assume from your interpretation that there was the 'thing', then say the source suggests that. Kind of circular reasoning, so if one follows your interpretation, it will suggest, if does not, it will not.

- Your interpretation is the following:
He planned the visit on a fix date (from the very beginning) and assigned 'few enough' workforces to Jerjerrod to just complete 60% of the station by that time.
- My interpretation is the following:
He assigned as much workforce as he could (without risking the normal supply of the military), and visited the DS when it was only 60% completed.

BTW: Asking for more resources is common, even when one has all the currently available. (This can result the creation of new resources (for example conscription or trying to use stormtroopers for an engineer's work), or 'motivation' of the current workforce EDIT: and/or the person who asked .)