TIE Defenders to expensive?!?!?

[Spartan]

This has to be the stupidest excuse I've seen, used to resolve official materials conflicting with canon. How can a ship the size of a fighter be to expensive in SW? Remember when "Tales of the bounty hunters floated that myth about the Executer nearly bankrupting the Empire.

Surly there are other reasons why the Defender, Avenger, and Assualt gun boat are not deployed in force. As I recall the Defender is only 300,000 credits while the TIE interceptor costs 120,000 credits.


What's the real reason ?

[pecker]

Because such fighters didn't exist back in '77 when the movies were made.

[Mr Bean]

They where in last stage expermental stage as of a week before the end of ROTJ if I remeber correctly and where slated to begin to be mass produced as unlike the Avenger and Advanced they WHERE Cheaper part of part to produce thats to several improvments in Production

Problem was you had to COMPLETLY retool the factorys to begin to produce these bad buys and arrange part shipments all sorts of Burcratic things that ended them instead of the goal of being produced for the same cost as a Tie/Interceptor to costing two and a half Interceptors.


Burcracy conquers all and when one builds Fights for ships that Carry 50+ of them then introduces a new design that cost twice and a half as much cost tend to rise

[Kuja]

The unit/cost ratio was too high, not the overall cost. It was far more cost-effective to churn out hundreds of TIE/In fighters than dozens of TIE/def fighters.

[StimNeuro]

Especially if you equip those Tie/Lns with shields, like Thrawn did. The Empire didn't need a hyperspace-capable fighter when they had vessels like the Star Destroyer. Not to mention the obvious problems with defections...

[Sea Skimmer]

The TIE Defenders advantages over a TIE Interceptor, which wasn't real common either, 10-20% of the Empires star fighter force, where surpluses of Imperial requirements while the Emperor was in power, and after that they lacked the resources to mass produce them on a notable scale.

But remember, with billions of fighters running around, the TIE Defender might number in the tens of millions but still be considered rare.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I'm guessing one of the reasons was ordinary TIE fighters did the job fine, and fear of mass defections was probably another.

[Admiral Drason]

I dont know besides the mass Defection thing theres nothing wrong with them.

[nightmare]

Too high cost has to mean too high relative cost. After all, the relatively dirt-poor rebels could field fighters with shields and hyperdrive.

I think the Empire simply regarded hyperdrives as an unnecessary expense, and shields would lower speed and performance with the tech at hand when the TIE's were constructed. Pilot skill and firepower were considered more important. Of course, when the Empire started to run out of veterans, the new pilots didn't last long enough to get good, so it's a bad choice in the long run.

An analogy from playing Rebellion may shed some light. For the cost of Defenders, I can field more than double the amount of Interceptors, and the kill ratio doesn't go up with the double in the game. Of course, I have to use Defenders in the game, because non-hyperdrive fighters takes ages to launch... but for planetary defence, Interceptors is clearly more cost-effective. Granted, this has nothing to do with SW canon, but I figure you get my meaning.

[Kuja]

I think the Empire simply regarded hyperdrives as an unnecessary expense, and shields would lower speed and performance with the tech at hand when the TIE's were constructed.

No, the higher-ups were afraid that hype-capable fighters would end up slashing good contracts for capships.

[nightmare]

I think the Empire simply regarded hyperdrives as an unnecessary expense, and shields would lower speed and performance with the tech at hand when the TIE's were constructed.

No, the higher-ups were afraid that hype-capable fighters would end up slashing good contracts for capships.

That seems pretty dumb though. There's only so much fighters can do. But there's historical precedences so I'm not saying you're wrong.

[The Dark]

I think it was a matter of timing. According to TIE Fighter, there was ONE squadron of Missile Boats at the time of the Battle of Endor. There weren't that many more Defenders, and the Avengers were mostly a stopgap on the way to the Defender. At least, that's what I remember from the story, it's been a while since I played through the game.

[Kuja]

I think it was a matter of timing. According to TIE Fighter, there was ONE squadron of Missile Boats at the time of the Battle of Endor. There weren't that many more Defenders, and the Avengers were mostly a stopgap on the way to the Defender. At least, that's what I remember from the story, it's been a while since I played through the game.

That's true as well.

[Sea Skimmer]

I think it was a matter of timing. According to TIE Fighter, there was ONE squadron of Missile Boats at the time of the Battle of Endor. There weren't that many more Defenders, and the Avengers were mostly a stopgap on the way to the Defender. At least, that's what I remember from the story, it's been a while since I played through the game.

Sounds like the design was in operational testing. Those examples where likely near hand built.

[Jim Raynor]

In TIE Fighter, didn't Zaarin cripple the Empire's ability to manufacture more Avengers?

[Warspite]

In TIE Fighter, didn't Zaarin cripple the Empire's ability to manufacture more Avengers?

Correct. I haven't played it in a few years, but I think that he destroyed the factories where they were being produced. I can't remenber how he got it's hands on Defenders, though. But, Thrawn was supervising the Defender prototyping.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Why is the hyperspace=defection even a choice? If this was a major concern, why couldn't the Empire just remove the hyperdrive from the TIE Defender design and maybe replace it with more sensors, more ammunition, more computers, an extra power generator, an extra shield generator, a cargo compartment, etc.?

[Master of Ossus]

The thing about TIE Defenders being too expensive is that the Empire is saying that it is too expensive when compared with its benefits over other starfighter models. They are saying that the money could be better spent on capital ships. Economists call this productivity. It is a measure of a unit's benefits divided by the opportunity cost of buying them. Units like ISD's can patrol entire star-systems by themselves. In groups, they can defeat planets. TIE Defenders cannot do this. They are not an effective way of projecting power. While undoubtedly effective in combat, they are also highly limited in what they can and cannot do.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

But the TIE Defender's purpose is to take out the Rebel's shielded starfighters that pose threats to other Imperial assets, not planetary assault. If Palpatine let the economists decide what was best for the military, he was more of a fool than I thought. I should also add that the TIE Defender is completely superior over all previous TIEs . The Defender is the most agile, the fastest, has the strongest shields, has ion cannons, and has missile launchers. This complete superiority means that they could replace all TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, and TIE Avengers (if they were in production at all). It would make the maintenence and repair of fighters much easier as well, as there would only be TIE Defender parts and TIE Bomber parts. In the long run, they'd probably save more money by not having to maintain all of the other classes of TIEs. So IMO, there is no real practical reason to NOT produce the TIE Defender. I think maybe because the Empire was in turmoil post-Endor that the project was scrapped. Not because of an idiotic decision on the Empire's part. Just doesn't convince me.

[Master of Ossus]

But the TIE Defender's purpose is to take out the Rebel's shielded starfighters that pose threats to other Imperial assets, not planetary assault. If Palpatine let the economists decide what was best for the military, he was more of a fool than I thought. I should also add that the TIE Defender is completely superior over all previous TIEs . The Defender is the most agile, the fastest, has the strongest shields, has ion cannons, and has missile launchers. This complete superiority means that they could replace all TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, and TIE Avengers (if they were in production at all). It would make the maintenence and repair of fighters much easier as well, as there would only be TIE Defender parts and TIE Bomber parts. In the long run, they'd probably save more money by not having to maintain all of the other classes of TIEs. So IMO, there is no real practical reason to NOT produce the TIE Defender. I think maybe because the Empire was in turmoil post-Endor that the project was scrapped. Not because of an idiotic decision on the Empire's part. Just doesn't convince me.

But remember cost. For the price of a TIE Defender, you can purchase nearly a half-squadron of standard TIE fighters (ref. EGVV), and the TIE Defender is not as capable of defeating Rebel starfighters as a capital ship. The loss of the TIE Defender for budgetary reasons, more importantly, is not unique to SW. The transition to the F-18 Hornet from other models of Naval aircraft is a good example of an inferior aircraft replacing a superior one for budget reasons. Simply put, it is better to have two slightly weaker aircraft than one very good one. This was demonstrated in simulation after simulation during the Cold War, which showed that in a conventional war, the United States would have large advantages over the Soviets in the Navy and Army, but would have immediate problems in the air. The Soviet numbers would simply overwhelm American pilots.

You're not necessarily looking for the best starfighter. You're looking at the most cost-effective starfighter. The TIE Defender is a better starfighter than any other Imperial fighter (with the possible exception of the Missile Boat), but its performance comes at a huge price. The use of the TIE Defender only for elite units was almost certainly the perfect decision, as it allowed for the units most capable of harnessing the TIE Defender's superior performance to use the fighter, while most other units were left with other TIE's. In addition, Alliance starfighters have been shown time and again to require vastly more maintenance than Imperial models (ref. A-Wing, B-Wing, Y-Wing, Truce at Bakura, EGVV, X-Wing: Alliance, ICS, etc.). The reason is likely because they carry shields, hyperdrives, and powerful engines. These are very expensive systems, that require significant maintenance in order to be effective. Thus, it still strikes me as likely that TIE Defenders require more maintenance than all other TIE models, with the possible exceptions of the Scimitar and the TIE Avenger, themselves very expensive starfighters.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

But with the economy totally geared towards the Empire's military might, why stop at ISDs? It just doesn't make any sense. The Empire has nearly unlimited resources of an entire GALAXY, unlike the Rebels or even the United States. I guarantee if the U.S. conquered the entire world and it had all of the world's resources to fight against terrorists, it'd have fleets and fleets of F-14s as opposed to cost-effective F-18s. You cannot compare the two factions unless you alter the United States to fit the Empire or alter the Empire to fit the United States.

[Master of Ossus]

But with the economy totally geared towards the Empire's military might, why stop at ISDs? It just doesn't make any sense. The Empire has nearly unlimited resources of an entire GALAXY, unlike the Rebels or even the United States. I guarantee if the U.S. conquered the entire world and it had all of the world's resources to fight against terrorists, it'd have fleets and fleets of F-14s as opposed to cost-effective F-18s. You cannot compare the two factions unless you alter the United States to fit the Empire or alter the Empire to fit the United States.

The obvious answer is that capital ships were more important for what the Empire was doing than TIE Defenders. Namely, the Empire was attacking and holding planets and territory. TIE Defenders might be marginally more cost-effective in assaulting pirates and smugglers, but ISD's can capture entire planets by themselves. If the US controlled the entire world, they would almost certainly use B-52's, Spectre gunships, attack helicopters, and F-18's almost exclusively. There would be no enemy aircraft to fight against, so only ground-attack capability would matter. These aircraft can deliver loads of weapons to a specific area, and would have no real weaknesses against terrorists. There would be no reason to develop better aircraft. But I digress, the analogy isn't really important. The point of the original statement was that it is better to have two weak aircraft than one good one. The fact is that the 5 TIEs will have a total of ten cannons, the ability to split up, cover each other, and engage multiple targets simultaneously. The TIE Defender available for the same price will have six cannons and still require support from a capital ship, though it will have the ability to engage targets away from that home-base.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

You still don't get it. If all of those TIE Fighters are slower, less maneuverable, and have NO shields whatsoever compared to one TIE Defender, they will get destroyed one by one from superior Rebel starfighters. However, one TIE Defender would be able to dodge shots the TIE Fighters couldn't and absorb shots the TIE Fighters couldn't. It would take at least as many hits to take down one TIE Defender as it would to take down five TIE Fighters, and the TIE Defender is harder to hit. It is not marginally more effective than TIE Fighters. Not to mention the entirely new useage of missiles and ion cannons that would add more utility to them. They could now disable starfighters and engage multiple targets at once as opposed to blasting whatever's in sight with a single pair of laser cannons. And if one TIE Defender is worth five TIE Fighters, there is only enough space on ISDs for 72 starfighters. This means that if you replaced the original 72 TIE Fighters on ISDs with 72 TIE Defenders, this new force is worth FIVE TIMES more than the original in the same amount of space. You can't have 350 TIE Fighters on an ISD, can you? But you CAN have 72 TIE Defenders on an ISD. Plus, you can then have 14 TIE Defenders on the ISD that would be equal to the 72 original TIE Fighters on an ISD and then have the rest of the starfighter slots used for more support craft or whatever you damn well please.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Whoops, I meant 360 TIE Fighters, not 350.

[Darth Yoshi]

Aren't TIE Defenders considered elite fighters?