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Alright, maybe some of you guys have read Mike Wong's rebuttal against racist accusation on TPM.

Mike Wong wrote: What is this "controversy"? It basically centres on two alien species in TPM: The Neimoidians and the Gungans. The same argument has been made in dozens of entertainment industry articles with virtually no variation, so I will paraphrase the argument here rather than quoting one of the articles verbatim:

TPM racist accusation wrote: The Gungans aren't the only racist stereotype in TPM- the Neimoidians are even worse! Start with the accent- they all speak in an obviously Asian-accented broken dialect which sounds like Charlie Chan, in a not-so-nice homage to the common "Yellow Menace" motif of the 1930's era serials from which George Lucas drew his inspiration. But the stereotype doesn't stop there- look at their appearance and behaviour. With their slitted eyes, flat faces, duplicitous nature, and economic aggression, they are clearly meant to represent one of the big Japanese corporations- is it Toyota? Sony? Toshiba? Does it really matter which corporation it is? The point is that TPM promoted horrifically racist stereotypes of Asian-Americans. What kind of message does this send to our children? It teaches them that these slit-eyed, heavily accented, deceitful business thugs represent Asians- how much more harmful could a stereotype get?

I'll start with the second "stereotype", since my racial background gives me an unusual perspective on this issue. First, I would like to ask you, the reader, the question: did you see the Neimoidians as Asian? If you did, then I think you need to ask yourself some hard questions regarding your own racism. Frankly, the instant I hear a white person telling me that my race is being insulted in TPM, I get pretty damned suspicious. Wouldn't I have noticed such an insult if it were there? I am not known for blithely ignoring racial attacks upon myself. Why then, did I fail to see that the Neimoidians were an "obvious" Asian stereotype? Why did I need a white person to explain the insult to me?

I I didn't see any resemblance of Neimoidians with Asians either. I mean, come on! Nemoidians is a *fictitious* alien race, with physical appearance is nothing like humans, let alone Asians. I think people who "notice" the "stereotypes" in TPM has way too much imagination in their heads.....

.....until several days ago.

See, I watched TPM some days ago with my brother. We didn't took the movie too seriously, just enjoying it same way we would enjoy cheesy stuffs like Flash Gordon (it's not TESB after all). We were joking and commenting a lot while watching it (mostly revolving around how Natalie Portman would look good in bikini).

Then, at some scenes where the Neimoidians spoke, I my brother blurted out a comment that made me almost spill my beer out:
"Boy, they do speak like Japanese."

Then I felt chills in my bone, remember the "stereotypes" pointed in TPM, and Mike's rebuttal against them. I remember that since Nemoidians bore no resemblance with humans, let alone Asians, the people who point the "stereotypes" must have made them up themselves.

But then, in the comfort of my couch, I heard an unsuspecting, "Average Joe" movie fan (my brother, that is.) innocently commented that "Nemoidians speak like Japanese".

The more chilling fact is, the more I heard the Nemoidians spoke during the movie, the more I believe that they were actually speaking "Japanese-accented English" ("Engrish"?).

Note that my brother is not a sci-fi geek; he never interested in *any* sci-fi discussions, neither is he aware about TPM stereotypes pointed out in several articles (which is rebutted by Mike in his Essay page). He is not a racist person and never been much aware in racism issues either. Like I said, he's just an average movie audience who enjoys Star Wars as much as he's enjoying X-Men. So it's hard to believe that he made such comment to make a point. The way I heard it, he just commented casually. That's all.

So my question is: had they (the people behind TPM, that is) deliberately made the Neimoidians spoke Japanese-resembling accent? Or I was just having too much beer?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:So my question is: were they (the people behind TPM, that is) deliberately made the Neimoidians spoke Japanese-resembling accent? Or I was just having too much beer?

Deliberately? No. There is a resemblance though. I don't think it's a racist connection though, as we only ever see a small sampling of the Neimodian race that assuming the 'engrish' accent was deliberate after only hearing two characters speak it is somewhat knee-jerk.

I mean, I might as well just say the Empire and Rebel Alliance are composed of white supremacists, after the sampling from ANH. That would make as much sense. Or another classic one: the Empire is racist/specist/sexist etc because we don't see any black/asiatic imperials, aliens or women, outside of the EU.

[edit] I should also throw in: how's it necessarily racist to recognise an accent? Or to inject one into the role? Yes, they sound like Japanese, but so what? If they sounded like British aristocrats, would that be somehow more acceptable?

I've never heard a Japanese person speak like that. But I think that the real problem is simple: it's impossible to make up a fake accent that won't bear at least some resemblance to parts of a real accent, so people who have a grudge against the filmmaker will interpret it as racism.

Perhaps GL should have stuck to making all the villains British. No one seemed to complain then (not even the British). I guess Brits aren't a race.

You've been having too much beer. I live in Hong Kong and the Nemoidians sound Asian in the same way that Australians sound Norwegian.

No racial steriotyping for Aussies or those wonderful people from Norway intended.

Stofsk wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:So my question is: were they (the people behind TPM, that is) deliberately made the Neimoidians spoke Japanese-resembling accent? Or I was just having too much beer?

Deliberately? No. There is a resemblance though. I don't think it's a racist connection though, as we only ever see a small sampling of the Neimodian race that assuming the 'engrish' accent was deliberate after only hearing two characters speak it is somewhat knee-jerk.

I noticed that the "Engrish-speaking" Neimoidians were not limited to the Viceroy and his aide, but those on the Droid Control Ship as well. Didn't quite pay much attention to the Neimoidians Senator, though.

Stofsk wrote: I mean, I might as well just say the Empire and Rebel Alliance are composed of white supremacists, after the sampling from ANH. That would make as much sense. Or another classic one: the Empire is racist/specist/sexist etc because we don't see any black/asiatic imperials, aliens or women, outside of the EU.

[off-topic]
This is why I always think that Star Wars is actually against racism. The good guys (the Rebels) are depicted of being composed of many races with various (and even grotesque) appearances, while the bad guys (the Empire) are potrayed as a bunch white-supremacist, space Nazi. I believe that Star Wars (at least the OT) actually taught us of how not to judge from one's appearance (take a look of Chewie, for instance.).

On the second thought, as a loyal and dedicated Imperial citizen, I hate to see *my country* depicted in such negative aura. Hmmm... I think a COMPNOR visit on Lucas' residence should be arranged immediately...
[/off-topic]

Stofsk wrote: [edit] I should also throw in: how's it necessarily racist to recognise an accent? Or to inject one into the role? Yes, they sound like Japanese, but so what? If they sounded like British aristocrats, would that be somehow more acceptable?

I'm thinking about racist-accusation against TPM, which is based against suppose-to-be-exist stereotypes in the movie. I never thought those stereotypes actually exist. After all, do Neimoidians actually look like Asians? (Maybe if I'm watching the movie while smoking pots. Until then....). After I notice those Engrish accents, however.....

No offense, but Americans suck at determining accents. Download an MGS3 trailer to hear what Japanese people really sound like.

Darth Wong wrote:I've never heard a Japanese person speak like that. But I think that the real problem is simple: it's impossible to make up a fake accent that won't bear at least some resemblance to parts of a real accent, so people who have a grudge against the filmmaker will interpret it as racism.

Frankly, I never heard a real-life Japanese speak like that either (although I don't meet many Japanese in my life), but they accent sounded like "Engrish" (if you watch movies where Japanese are potrayed in stereotypical or caricatural way, you know what I mean...). So I hope it is not a deliberate attempt.

Darth Wong wrote: Perhaps GL should have stuck to making all the villains British. No one seemed to complain then (not even the British). I guess Brits aren't a race.

How about Australian? I wonder what happens if those admirals are speaking Australian accents (no offense, Aussies!)

So, because the Nemoidians sound like they're trying to sound like someone trying to sound like they're vaugely Asian, they're Asian?

You need some Florida Swamp Land with that?

Pcm979 wrote:No offense, but Americans suck at determining accents. Download an MGS3 trailer to hear what Japanese people really sound like.

But I'm not American. Still, I guess you're right. On the second thought, I don't think Nemoidians spoke like real-life Japanese (which I've never met too many in my life.).

Probably because me and my brother have been watching too much Japanese stereotypes in some movies. I remember watching a comedy (couldn't recall the title, though) about an american auto factory which just being taken over by a Japanese conglomerate. The american employee was trying desperately (although awkwardly) to stop their particular auto project being disbanded. Although they failed miserably (as happens in *every* comedy movie, I guess), the old Japanese chairman was very impressed by their efforts and eventually commented "good team" in Engrish accent. Now his accent *sounded* like Neimoidians, IMO.

PS: Still disagree with you about the beer, though.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:But I'm not American.

In that case, I need to borrow some condiments for my foot.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Still, I guess you're right. On the second thought, I don't think Nemoidians spoke like real-life Japanese (which I've never met too many in my life.).

Aye, that's the rub.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:*Snip for great justice*

It's quite simply the best the actors could do, as natural english speakers trying to sound like they aren't. Look at me, In HK 16 years and I still can't pull off a Chinese accent.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:PS: Still disagree with you about the beer, though.

I conceed the beer-point.

Darth Wong wrote:Perhaps GL should have stuck to making all the villains British. No one seemed to complain then (not even the British). I guess Brits aren't a race.

Ever notice that? Popular culture seems to treat all English speaking white people as somesort of over-race.

They sure down sound Japanese "Engrish" to me or even a Charlie Chan knock off. They've got a funky accent, but it's not like any Asian accent I've heard. After all, if GL was going for a Japanese "Engrish" accent, choosing the title "Viceroy" is a really interesting choice, since that word would be really tricky to say in Engrish. I can just see the Viceroy's aide going "Biceryu! Biceryu!"

This might be me-tooing, might not, but when I first watched it, the idea of "hey, they're talking in that comical dubbed Asian voice" popped into my head. I think the problem is that some people associate "comical dubbed Asian voice" from old movies with "way Asian people actually talk," thus giving rise to the examples in Mike's article. However, go back and watch some of the old B&W 50s movies with Asians that are then dubbed to English or some such. They do sound like this, and I think that's what GL was getting at: poking fun at this way of speaking, which in itself was from a much earlier time. I've never heard real Asian people speak like the Neimodians. I have heard Asian people in movies speak that way, though.

Darth Wong wrote:I guess Brits aren't a race.

They aren't human, either!

When I first saw TPM I didn't think the Nemoidians looked anything like asians or were trying to, nor does their accent sound like any real asian accent I've heard. What it sounded like to me was the way people spoke in those old black and white movies where it's a white guy playing an asian guy with glasses and buck teeth. I didn't really think of it as a shot at asians, just that it was cringe-worthy. But then that was more because I thought the voice acting itself was off.

I mean it's just an accent. People got all up in arms about Watto too, saying he sounded Arabic. He didn't sound like any arabic accent I know either.

Mark S wrote:I mean it's just an accent. People got all up in arms about Watto too, saying he sounded Arabic. He didn't sound like any arabic accent I know either.

First my brother said Nemoidians spoke like Japanese, then you mentioned about Watto sounded Arabic. Now I have to throw away that TPM DVD before I start "hearing things".

Watto´s definatly got some kind of "hooked nose"-thing going on with his trunk. Sure made me cringe when I saw the "connection".

Not that I hold that or anything else against Watto, he´s one of the best characters in the PT, and a good example of how a CGI character can handle a dramatic role rather than be a spectacle. I´d even place him up along Gollum, performance-wise.

You know, I never thought of that, but in thinking about it, Watto does have the same accent that the Arabian slave trader (that sold Proximo Maximus and Juba) had in Gladiator...It's kinda masked by his scratchy voice (which I do a pretty good imitation of! )

My initial reaction to the way Neimoidians spoke was that it remeinded me of how old Japanese movies dubbed over in English sounded. Like the old Godzilla films. I doubt thats how most people in Japan actually speak though, never mind anyone of Japanese descent growing up elsewhere.

Actually, the closest thing I've heard to the Neimodian Viceroy's accent would be...Splinter, from the TMNT movies. He doesn't sound like a real Asian, but the accent is definitely the one that you see Asian stereotype characters speak with in certain movies.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Mark S wrote:I mean it's just an accent. People got all up in arms about Watto too, saying he sounded Arabic. He didn't sound like any arabic accent I know either.

First my brother said Nemoidians spoke like Japanese, then you mentioned about Watto sounded Arabic. Now I have to throw away that TPM DVD before I start "hearing things".

'Arabs speak with a number of very different accents. To say someone "sounds 'Arabic" is even less specific than to say someone "sounds American" (compare, for example, a New Yorker's accent with a Georgian's accent, or a Californian's), because the 'Arabic language is divided into several very different dialects; hearing an Egyptian person speak (in English or in 'Arabic) is nothing at all like hearing a Lebanese person speak. Watto may sound like an 'Arab to your ear, but his accent certainly doesn't sound Jordanian, Egyptian, Sudanese, or 'Iraqi to this author (and it is worth noting that this author spends six hours every working day in class with teachers of those nationalities).

Mark S wrote:People got all up in arms about Watto too, saying he sounded Arabic. He didn't sound like any arabic accent I know either.

The article I read tried to make Watto a Jewish sterotype with his greed and huge schnozz. Riiiiight. Like Lucas really wants to alienate his good friend Steven Spielberg with antisemitism.

Darth Wong wrote:Perhaps GL should have stuck to making all the villains British. No one seemed to complain then (not even the British). I guess Brits aren't a race.

I remember a South Park episode where men in black took Cartman away for committing a hate crime against Token by throwing a rock at him after he kept calling him a fat ass.

Agent Sharp: I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated than that, mister school counselor! You see, since the victim in this case is african-american, this is considered A HATE CRIME!

At the end:

Pip: Let's all hear it for Cartman's big fat ass! (Cartman picks up a rock and throws it square at Pip.) Oh! (he falls down.)
Cartman: Do British people count as an ethnicity for hate crimes?!
Guys: Naw!
Cartman: Sweet!

Darth Servo wrote:

Mark S wrote:People got all up in arms about Watto too, saying he sounded Arabic. He didn't sound like any arabic accent I know either.

The article I read tried to make Watto a Jewish sterotype with his greed and huge schnozz. Riiiiight. Like Lucas really wants to alienate his good friend Steven Spielberg with antisemitism.

Assuming for a second that Watto is a Jew stereotype, why assume that Lucas had a degree of malice in him? Maybe he wanted to poke fun at Spielberg or some shit?

Schnozz is the best word ever.

That said, I lived in Tokyo, I currently live in Okinawa, I frequently travel to the mainland, and I've never met a Japanese person who speaks like the Neimodians.