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Stormtroopers=Marines
Posted: 2005-01-01 01:13pm
by PainRack
"Stormtroopers are the Empire's calling card. Wherever the Empire goes, stormtroopers will be found, acting as ship's troops aboard Star Destroyers, accompanying visiting dignitaries to outlying worlds, and maintaining garrisons on trouble-torn worlds. Working in conjunction with the Imperial fleets, stormtroopers enforce the Emperor's will in an effective and brutal manner.
Unlike the Imperial Army, which is entirely geared toward ground operations, stormtroopers function equally well in space and on the ground. Trained to quickly seize ground installations during planetary assaults and to act as security troops on starships and battle stations, stormtroopers are far more flexible than regular army units.
As assault troops working in conjunction with Imperial Navy and Imperial Army armored units, stormtroopers are second to none. Their ability to rapidly overwhelm and capture enemy positions makes them the first choice for leading assaults on important worlds. Often stormtroopers are used to clear away the enemy's first line of defense and establish a ground base to allow the unopposed landing of transports carrying regular Army units. The Army, in these situations, is used to mop up resistance and maintain an Imperial presence.
Except in systems where prolonged struggles threaten to disrupt the Empire's industrial capacity or weaken its strategic positions, stormtroopers will be withdrawn once they have secured a landing zone. The complete subjugation of a world is left to the Imperial Army. Where a quick victory is essential, large numbers of stormtroopers will be deployed to crush the opposition as quickly as possible. On worlds where the Empire has established important military bases or research establishments, units of stormtroopers are used to stiffen regular Army units."
From the Imperial sourcebook.
I was just wondering........ doesn't this just make the stormtroopers the Imperial equivalent of the Royal Marines? I mean, other than them having no organic armour support attached, they just fit so perfectly. They expect armoured support attached to them by the Army in the form of AT-AT and AT-ST, they have their own mobile vehicles in hoverbikes(our equivalent of Rovers?),they're primarily light infantry with their own infantry support like mortars and portable anti-air weapons.They rely heavily on aerial support provided by the Imperial navy, their mission roles include the traditional SOI, securing and establishing a base of operations, capturing enemy vessels(Tantive IV!) and they have attached to them specialised corps of troops for special missions.
Hell, naval security on board ships appear to be the domain of black helmeted naval troopers, the equivalent of naval RPs.
Posted: 2005-01-01 01:56pm
by Illuminatus Primus
Yes, they are. The Stormtroopers are officially known as the Imperial Marines as per Pax Emperica: The Wookiee Annhiliation.
Posted: 2005-01-01 07:25pm
by Panzer Grenadier
Have we ever seen what a regular Imp soldier's uniform/armor looks like? I used to imagine they were like the black suited soldiers guarding the detention block on the Death Star, but have never seen a picture.
Posted: 2005-01-01 08:30pm
by YT300000
Posted: 2005-01-01 08:43pm
by Old Plympto
From
Rules of Engagement, a SpecForce sourcebook:
For reference's sake.
Posted: 2005-01-02 05:38am
by Comosicus
Old Plympto wrote:From Rules of Engagement, a SpecForce sourcebook:
For reference's sake.
Do you have a higher resolution version of this picture?
Posted: 2005-01-02 07:58am
by Old Plympto
Comosicus wrote:Do you have a higher resolution version of this picture?
Sorry, I don't. All I have are these gifs. This is one of the WEG RPG books I wish I have but I don't.
Posted: 2005-01-03 11:09am
by Lord Sander
AT-ST drivers in ROTJ are essentially regular Army troops.
Posted: 2005-01-03 11:38am
by NecronLord
Note that this makes the Empires Elite Troops less well equipped than the Republic's Basic Army. It is exceedingly likely that RotS will simply over-rule all of this and make the Clone Army > Stormtroopers, the Empire's Army.
Posted: 2005-01-03 06:37pm
by The Original Nex
NecronLord wrote:Note that this makes the Empires Elite Troops less well equipped than the Republic's Basic Army. It is exceedingly likely that RotS will simply over-rule all of this and make the Clone Army > Stormtroopers, the Empire's Army.
Who's to say that the Imperial military didn't undergo changes betwen RotS and ANH? Especially since many more troops would be needed to police the galaxy and clones cannot be produced quickly enough for that task. It seems likely that this shift from Stormtroopers/Clones going from basic army forces to Marine forces as the Empire gets more established.
Posted: 2005-01-03 07:22pm
by PainRack
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yes, they are. The Stormtroopers are officially known as the Imperial Marines as per Pax Emperica: The Wookiee Annhiliation.
Contextually, that would be a bit strange, as Marines should fall under the purview of the Imperial Navy, as opposed to being a seperate branch more akin to the SS.
Posted: 2005-01-04 01:41am
by Shroom Man 777
Actually no. Marines, US ones at least, are not part of the Navy, the Army or the Airforce.
Posted: 2005-01-04 02:06am
by Howedar
Historically, the United States Marine Corps was a branch of the Department of the Navy.
Posted: 2005-01-04 05:22am
by Shroom Man 777
But not the US Navy. Two different things.
Posted: 2005-01-04 02:00pm
by Petrosjko
"The US Navy has a supply corps, a transport corps, and a nurse's corps. It also owns the Marine Corps."
I believe that's the saying.
There was a proposal on the table a while back to make the Secretary of the Navy into the Secretary of the Navy and Marine Corps.
Posted: 2005-01-04 02:47pm
by Illuminatus Primus
The Imperial Marines cannot be a seperate branch of the Imperial armed services because the USMC answers to the Naval Department? The intinsic concept of a Marine armed service is not predisposed to be subordinated to the Navy, and there is explicit facts stating to the contrary.
Anyhow, the Grand Army of the Republic essentially becomes the Imperial Marines. The Imperial Marines' source of troops is mysterious to the Rebellion and the Imperial establishment, as per The Imperial Sourcebook. The Imperial Marines are largely clones, albeit ones belonging to a succession of lines and production methods. Some may be late-model Kaminoan clones without rapid aging problems. Others may be the Kaminoan-esque clones from the '70's Bantha Tracks' article. Later ones belong to a type called "GeNode." Troops emerge from the vat ready-to-deploy. And as a safeguard against the psychosis and instability of Mount Tantiss clones and the groupthink or lack of intelligence in Kaminoan clones, they fabricate their own false memories and unique personalities and fail to realize that they are clones. A single line of GeNode-type clones forms 40% of the Imperial Marines. There are at least two other lines, an older, tougher, dumber one - possibly old Grand Army troops - and troops bred to be scout bike riders.
Posted: 2005-01-04 04:23pm
by Howedar
Shroom Man 777 wrote:But not the US Navy. Two different things.
Perhaps you could explain this reasoning.
Posted: 2005-01-04 05:23pm
by Illuminatus Primus
Howedar wrote:Shroom Man 777 wrote:But not the US Navy. Two different things.
Perhaps you could explain this reasoning.
The U.S. Naval service is not the U.S. Marine Corps. However, they are both administrated by the Department of the Navy. What's difficult to understand?
For more: the
Joint Chiefs of Staff have seperate Chiefs of Staff for the USN and USMC. And up to 1986, the Chiefs of Staff had operational command of their armed service.
Posted: 2005-01-04 11:16pm
by Publius
Howedar wrote:Shroom Man 777 wrote:But not the US Navy. Two different things.
Perhaps you could explain this reasoning.
The United States Department of Defense is composed of three "military departments," the Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, and the Department of the Air Force. While the Secretary of the Army and the Secretary of the Air Force have responsibility for the United States Army and the United States Air Force, respectively, the Secretary of the Navy has responsibility for both the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corps. The latter two are entirely separate branches, with their own chains of command, traditions, and customs; see, for example, the slightly different understanding of what a quarterdeck is. The Navy Department is not the same entity as either the USN or the USMC, although it has administrative responsibility for both. Ergo, the Navy Department controls the USMC, but the USN does not (in fact, the USMC officially takes precedence before the USN).
PUBLIUS
Posted: 2005-01-04 11:39pm
by PainRack
You know. All this is interesting, but how does it change the fact that the Stormtroopers are more akin to the SS, in that they have a totally seperate chain of command from the Navy?
Posted: 2005-01-04 11:43pm
by frigidmagi
You know. All this is interesting, but how does it change the fact that the Stormtroopers are more akin to the SS, in that they have a totally seperate chain of command from the Navy?
So do the Marines. Which Publius covered when he said
he Secretary of the Navy has responsibility for both the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corps. The latter two are entirely separate branches, with their own chains of command, traditions, and customs;
Which is true, Marines need not follow and do not ask for orders from naval officers in times of peace and war, anymore then we do with Army oficers.
Posted: 2005-01-04 11:46pm
by Illuminatus Primus
Ah, so because of an administrative deviation from the norm, we should look past role, explicit description, and actual characteristics (i.e., they're not a paramilitary force, like the SS are) to make a decision?
The closest analog to the SS or SA in the Imperial State would probably be the armed branch of the semi-governmental political apparatus, COMPNOR known as the COMPForce. COMPForce are civilians organized in a military fashion by a political apparatus. Quite similar to the paramilitary arm of the Nazi Party in the same way, the SA or SS.
EDIT: Yes, exactly. Operational chain of command goes from combatanbt commanders directly to the Secretary of Defense. The Marine Corps Commandant is not subordinate to the Chief of Naval Operations. And the combatant commanders do not take operational orders from the Secretary of the Navy. Both are bypassed. So even the administration deviation has not been demonstrated.
Posted: 2005-01-05 01:39am
by Howedar
Publius wrote:Howedar wrote:Shroom Man 777 wrote:But not the US Navy. Two different things.
Perhaps you could explain this reasoning.
*Implicitly quoting IP as well*
The United States Department of Defense is composed of three "military departments," the Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, and the Department of the Air Force. While the Secretary of the Army and the Secretary of the Air Force have responsibility for the United States Army and the United States Air Force, respectively, the Secretary of the Navy has responsibility for both the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corps. The latter two are entirely separate branches, with their own chains of command, traditions, and customs; see, for example, the slightly different understanding of what a quarterdeck is. The Navy Department is not the same entity as either the USN or the USMC, although it has administrative responsibility for both. Ergo, the Navy Department controls the USMC, but the USN does not (in fact, the USMC officially takes precedence before the USN).
PUBLIUS
I am well aware that this is the current status of the US armed forces. However, I was under the impression that the departments in the past operated differently than they do today, hence the "historically" in my first post on the subject.
Posted: 2005-01-05 04:09am
by PainRack
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Ah, so because of an administrative deviation from the norm, we should look past role, explicit description, and actual characteristics (i.e., they're not a paramilitary force, like the SS are) to make a decision?
Just that calling them "Marines", normally suggest they're under the Navy. As for paramilitary, the SA were the paramilitaries. The SS Waffen, which is the equivalent I was thinking of, serve as either a Praetorian Guard or elite shock troops.
This is echoed by the fact that the Royal Guard recruits from stormtroopers and rotates their personnel amongst them to gain combat experience, as for shock troops............
EDIT: Yes, exactly. Operational chain of command goes from combatanbt commanders directly to the Secretary of Defense. The Marine Corps Commandant is not subordinate to the Chief of Naval Operations. And the combatant commanders do not take operational orders from the Secretary of the Navy. Both are bypassed. So even the administration deviation has not been demonstrated.
No. But the Marine Corps has its budget from the USN, and this is highly unlikely in the Imperial Navy.
Posted: 2005-01-05 10:42am
by VT-16
What´s wrong with a little combination of ideas? Take elements from the SS
and the Marines. Isn´t SW famous for taking ideas and influences from various places already?
