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I finished watching AOTC with director's commentary and Gl firmly states two things that immediately jumped out at me.

1) Stormtroopers ARE the clone troopers. FINALLY this debate can be put to rest. Staright from the man's mouth. To those interested he says this TWICE, once during the Kamino scene when discussing his creation of the Boba Fett character and his back story. And again during the final battle sequence when he was worried whether people would get that the clone troopers are meant to be the future stormtroopers (Apparently a worry that he was right about considering some of the raging debates on the subject)

2) The Darkside IS stronger. GL says this during the scene when Anakin is returning with his mother's corpse. He says that the key ot Anakin's fall is that Anakin above all else wants power and only the dark side can give him that power because the dark side is stronger....BUT there is a price to be paid for that power. So Yoda that little lying pond scum lies to Luke on Dagobah when Luke asks him whoch is stronger. "Is the dark side stronger?" "No, quicker easier more seductive." BZZZT Yoda caught in the act. No wonder Luke goes on to become Darth Nemesis and...OH, sorry wrong story

Oh yeah as a sidenote, GL specifically mentions force lightning as a SITH SPECIFIC power during the fight scene with Dooku.

Any thoughts on this?

Stravo wrote:I finished watching AOTC with director's commentary and Gl firmly states two things that immediately jumped out at me.

1) Stormtroopers ARE the clone troopers. FINALLY this debate can be put to rest. Staright from the man's mouth. To those interested he says this TWICE, once during the Kamino scene when discussing his creation of the Boba Fett character and his back story. And again during the final battle sequence when he was worried whether people would get that the clone troopers are meant to be the future stormtroopers (Apparently a worry that he was right about considering some of the raging debates on the subject)

Fuck. With those words Lucas killed the greatest of the EU books, The Thawn trilogy. Stupidest move he's ever made.

Stravo wrote:I finished watching AOTC with director's commentary and Gl firmly states two things that immediately jumped out at me.

1) Stormtroopers ARE the clone troopers. FINALLY this debate can be put to rest. Staright from the man's mouth. To those interested he says this TWICE, once during the Kamino scene when discussing his creation of the Boba Fett character and his back story. And again during the final battle sequence when he was worried whether people would get that the clone troopers are meant to be the future stormtroopers (Apparently a worry that he was right about considering some of the raging debates on the subject)

2) The Darkside IS stronger. GL says this during the scene when Anakin is returning with his mother's corpse. He says that the key ot Anakin's fall is that Anakin above all else wants power and only the dark side can give him that power because the dark side is stronger....BUT there is a price to be paid for that power. So Yoda that little lying pond scum lies to Luke on Dagobah when Luke asks him whoch is stronger. "Is the dark side stronger?" "No, quicker easier more seductive." BZZZT Yoda caught in the act. No wonder Luke goes on to become Darth Nemesis and...OH, sorry wrong story

Oh yeah as a sidenote, GL specifically mentions force lightning as a SITH SPECIFIC power during the fight scene with Dooku.

Any thoughts on this?

Well, of course the dark side is inevitably going to be stronger than the light side, from a certain point of view. The Light Side cannot be all that powerful, in one sense, since the light side is not based on the expression and use of foce as the Dark Side is. I think both Yoda and GL are right, just from different points of view.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stravo wrote:I finished watching AOTC with director's commentary and Gl firmly states two things that immediately jumped out at me.

1) Stormtroopers ARE the clone troopers. FINALLY this debate can be put to rest. Staright from the man's mouth. To those interested he says this TWICE, once during the Kamino scene when discussing his creation of the Boba Fett character and his back story. And again during the final battle sequence when he was worried whether people would get that the clone troopers are meant to be the future stormtroopers (Apparently a worry that he was right about considering some of the raging debates on the subject)

Fuck. With those words Lucas killed the greatest of the EU books, The Thawn trilogy. Stupidest move he's ever made.

Why's that, does the Thrawn trilogy explicitly state that clones are/are not stormtroopers?

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stravo wrote:I finished watching AOTC with director's commentary and Gl firmly states two things that immediately jumped out at me.

1) Stormtroopers ARE the clone troopers. FINALLY this debate can be put to rest. Staright from the man's mouth. To those interested he says this TWICE, once during the Kamino scene when discussing his creation of the Boba Fett character and his back story. And again during the final battle sequence when he was worried whether people would get that the clone troopers are meant to be the future stormtroopers (Apparently a worry that he was right about considering some of the raging debates on the subject)

Fuck. With those words Lucas killed the greatest of the EU books, The Thawn trilogy. Stupidest move he's ever made.

SeaSkimmer, alot of folks have mentioned this in the clonetrooper/stromtrooper debates and I have no idea why. Where in the Thrawn trilogy does it contradict GL's vision? Wasn't Thrawn using clones anyway in those books?

It says clones were made illegal after the CWs.

That doesn't mean the Empire wasn't breaking the law.

Stravo wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stravo wrote:I finished watching AOTC with director's commentary and Gl firmly states two things that immediately jumped out at me.

1) Stormtroopers ARE the clone troopers. FINALLY this debate can be put to rest. Staright from the man's mouth. To those interested he says this TWICE, once during the Kamino scene when discussing his creation of the Boba Fett character and his back story. And again during the final battle sequence when he was worried whether people would get that the clone troopers are meant to be the future stormtroopers (Apparently a worry that he was right about considering some of the raging debates on the subject)

Fuck. With those words Lucas killed the greatest of the EU books, The Thawn trilogy. Stupidest move he's ever made.

SeaSkimmer, alot of folks have mentioned this in the clonetrooper/stromtrooper debates and I have no idea why. Where in the Thrawn trilogy does it contradict GL's vision? Wasn't Thrawn using clones anyway in those books?

The entire premise of the clones in the trilogy contradicts what GL has just said.

The simple fact that possessing a cloning facility is a big deal. And clone warriors are consider exceptional, in all roles. If all Stormtroopers where clones then there would certainly be facilities for such in the ¼ of Imperial space Thawn still had. He could have just gotten new templates and cloned the crews and pilots he needed.

Nevermind the fact that nowhere in the EU or even the OT does anyone acknowledge that Stormtroopers are clones. You'd think someone would notice this and point it out at some point.

Dammit GL, SW continuity is becoming almost as messed up as Biblical continuity.

The entire premise of the clones in the trilogy contradicts what GL has just said.

The simple fact that possessing a cloning facility is a big deal. And clone warriors are consider exceptional, in all roles. If all Stormtroopers where clones then there would certainly be facilities for such in the ¼ of Imperial space Thawn still had. He could have just gotten new templates and cloned the crews and pilots he needed.

UNLESS the emperor kept the fact that the Stormies were clones a secret and there was only ONE facility making them. Perhaps it was always Kamino throughout the IMperial era but after the fall of the MEpire, either kamino was captured by the rebels and as such the cloning stopped, or without more payments from the emperor, the Kaminoins simply stopped making the clones. Remember they only care about the size of your pocket book AND it was a relatively unknown system. Only the Jedi knew about it and they are all gone.

I believe that in the trilogy it also states that the secret to the Stormtroopers was lost with the Emperor. I offer up the explanation that Palpy was dealing with Kamino the whole time, he dies, no more payments, no more clones. Does NOT contradict the trilogy because Thrawn did not know about Kamino.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stravo wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote: Fuck. With those words Lucas killed the greatest of the EU books, The Thawn trilogy. Stupidest move he's ever made.

SeaSkimmer, alot of folks have mentioned this in the clonetrooper/stromtrooper debates and I have no idea why. Where in the Thrawn trilogy does it contradict GL's vision? Wasn't Thrawn using clones anyway in those books?

The entire premise of the clones in the trilogy contradicts what GL has just said.

The simple fact that possessing a cloning facility is a big deal. And clone warriors are consider exceptional, in all roles. If all Stormtroopers where clones then there would certainly be facilities for such in the ¼ of Imperial space Thawn still had. He could have just gotten new templates and cloned the crews and pilots he needed.

Oh, I just remembered; IIRC, the clones we saw in the Thrawn Trilogy could be churned out almost instantaneously, whereas the clones we see in EpII take ten years to grow. Perhaps there is some greater significance attached to the fact that Thrawn found a facility that could instantly produce clones, rather than a ten-year facility.

Plus, it was possible to detect that they were clones because they had a different "feel" in the Force. If all stormies are clones, then they would also be sensed in such a way, yet that never happens in any of the literature.

The Dark wrote:Plus, it was possible to detect that they were clones because they had a different "feel" in the Force. If all stormies are clones, then they would also be sensed in such a way, yet that never happens in any of the literature.

Contradicted by AOTC when no mention is made of this different feel AT ALL, when Obi is touring the facility, when the clones are fighting alongside the Jedi, at no time is this ever mentioned or even hinted at. The only thing we know about Stormies is that they're ALL weak minded...and what do we learn about clones in AOTC boys and girls? That's right they have been programmed to be more susceptable to follwoing orders...Hmmmmm

Hmm. I wonder why Obi-Wan never mentioned that to Luke. He should have known something was weird when he was in the Clone Wars and years later you got a bunch of guys that are wearing similar armor. At least we know how come Obi-Wan is able to use the mind trick on stormies.

Durran Korr wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stravo wrote: SeaSkimmer, alot of folks have mentioned this in the clonetrooper/stromtrooper debates and I have no idea why. Where in the Thrawn trilogy does it contradict GL's vision? Wasn't Thrawn using clones anyway in those books?

The entire premise of the clones in the trilogy contradicts what GL has just said.

The simple fact that possessing a cloning facility is a big deal. And clone warriors are consider exceptional, in all roles. If all Stormtroopers where clones then there would certainly be facilities for such in the ¼ of Imperial space Thawn still had. He could have just gotten new templates and cloned the crews and pilots he needed.

Oh, I just remembered; IIRC, the clones we saw in the Thrawn Trilogy could be churned out almost instantaneously, whereas the clones we see in EpII take ten years to grow. Perhaps there is some greater significance attached to the fact that Thrawn found a facility that could instantly produce clones, rather than a ten-year facility.

Doesn’t work. The speed of cloning was addressed in the books. Without the Ysalamiri the minimal time was a year, but longer made for much better clones. Thawn was able to do it in a week because he had the Ysalamiri to protect the clone's minds from the force. The NR officials where quite surprised at the rapid appearance of the clones themselves, but didn't think it would take a decade.

Really there is no way to make it work. Lucas just fucked over all of Zahn's work, which makes me wonder if he's still going to do his duality. He might, nothing is know if it and it might contain some attempt to explain everything. But I doubt it.

This also fucks over a damn lot of the EU, though most of the other novels would be okay.

Stravo wrote:

The Dark wrote:Plus, it was possible to detect that they were clones because they had a different "feel" in the Force. If all stormies are clones, then they would also be sensed in such a way, yet that never happens in any of the literature.

Contradicted by AOTC when no mention is made of this different feel AT ALL, when Obi is touring the facility, when the clones are fighting alongside the Jedi, at no time is this ever mentioned or even hinted at. The only thing we know about Stormies is that they're ALL weak minded...and what do we learn about clones in AOTC boys and girls? That's right they have been programmed to be more susceptable to follwoing orders...Hmmmmm

Why would he bother to mention it? He wasn't exactly surprised by the idea of cloning or anything. It's like mentioning you get a chill when you enter a walk in freezer.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stravo wrote:

The Dark wrote:Plus, it was possible to detect that they were clones because they had a different "feel" in the Force. If all stormies are clones, then they would also be sensed in such a way, yet that never happens in any of the literature.

Contradicted by AOTC when no mention is made of this different feel AT ALL, when Obi is touring the facility, when the clones are fighting alongside the Jedi, at no time is this ever mentioned or even hinted at. The only thing we know about Stormies is that they're ALL weak minded...and what do we learn about clones in AOTC boys and girls? That's right they have been programmed to be more susceptable to follwoing orders...Hmmmmm

Why would he bother to mention it? He wasn't exactly surprised by the idea of cloning or anything. It's like mentioning you get a chill when you enter a walk in freezer.

You do have a point there. I guess we really can't say one way or the other how Zahn's point that the clones feel different fits in now. made sense during the Zahn trilogy. BTW what's this duology people are speaking of, can we truly expect a new set of books from the master??

It's a load of bollocks, most of it....

neoolong wrote:Hmm. I wonder why Obi-Wan never mentioned that to Luke. He should have known something was weird when he was in the Clone Wars and years later you got a bunch of guys that are wearing similar armor. At least we know how come Obi-Wan is able to use the mind trick on stormies.

After Han, Luke, and Chewie took out the two Stormtroopers guarding the ramp of the Falcon they should have noticed the two troops were identical. Since they didn't react to it in anyway, I would assume that the fact that they(the stormtroopers) were clones was not a big surprise.

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, GL says it's canon, and he's going to redub the stormtrooper voices in the OT before they get released on DVD so they have the same accent. On the other hand, much like the "Greedo shooting first" scene, that's not what he intended in 1977.

The fact that GL is going to invalidate part of the EU should not surprise anyone; he has also invalidated portions of the original trilogy which he changed his mind about, freely editing events as it suits him. People have mixed feelings about this; personally, I feel that once you publish something, you should not significantly alter it after the fact. Fixing bad effects is one thing, but altering events and situations is another.

Will people start having debates about Original Star Wars vs Star Trek, as opposed to Revised Star Wars vs Star Trek?

Darth Wong wrote:I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, GL says it's canon, and he's going to redub the stormtrooper voices in the OT before they get released on DVD so they have the same accent. On the other hand, much like the "Greedo shooting first" scene, that's not what he intended in 1977.

The fact that GL is going to invalidate part of the EU should not surprise anyone; he has also invalidated portions of the original trilogy which he changed his mind about, freely editing events as it suits him. People have mixed feelings about this; personally, I feel that once you publish something, you should not significantly alter it after the fact. Fixing bad effects is one thing, but altering events and situations is another.

Will people start having debates about Original Star Wars vs Star Trek, as opposed to Revised Star Wars vs Star Trek?

Only if the things he changes alter the basic statistics on the power outputs. If it's just relatively minor plot points like who shot first or whether the stormies are clones, I don't think that will change too much.

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, GL says it's canon, and he's going to redub the stormtrooper voices in the OT before they get released on DVD so they have the same accent. On the other hand, much like the "Greedo shooting first" scene, that's not what he intended in 1977.

I'm not sure about that point Wong. Back in 77 he just didn't have the budget to fully realize a vision of stormtroopers as clones but there were plenty of hints that they were...different. They all looked the same, he tried to get guys around the same height, hell look at Leia's statement:"Aren't you a little short to be a stromtrooper" as some indication that perhaps they were all alike. PLUS they never took their helmtes off ever in all three OT movies. GL simply did not have the technology to fully realize that aspect of his story, but the Clone Wars were mentioned as early as ANH, some indication that he was thinking down that road.

Greedo shooting first is CLEARLY him changing the intent on something he filmed 20 years ago.

To me there is a sharp divide between the vision he could not realize due to limitations on technology and time and those that were clearly Lucas changing his mind later on. ne is understandable the other is not.

The crying about his invalidating the EU, well, I don't feel very strongly about that because quite simply the EU is his way to make more money, but I don;t think that it crosses his mind for a second that "Oh no, I can't go down this road because it might invalidate some story some guy I licensed to a few years ago wrote.

Hell, in one scene on the DVD features he's in a brainstorming session and someone asks him what color is Yoda's blood. Does GL pause to consult the EU source books or guides? Fuck no! He makes a snap decision there...and its quite obvious he pulled it out of his ass because he NEVER thought about it until asked. Point there is that this is his story and he could care less if the EU came up with something else. The EU is there to help him make yet more money, nothing else. (In his mind)

Knife wrote:

neoolong wrote:Hmm. I wonder why Obi-Wan never mentioned that to Luke. He should have known something was weird when he was in the Clone Wars and years later you got a bunch of guys that are wearing similar armor. At least we know how come Obi-Wan is able to use the mind trick on stormies.

After Han, Luke, and Chewie took out the two Stormtroopers guarding the ramp of the Falcon they should have noticed the two troops were identical. Since they didn't react to it in anyway, I would assume that the fact that they(the stormtroopers) were clones was not a big surprise.

Twin brothers?

neoolong wrote:

Knife wrote:

neoolong wrote:Hmm. I wonder why Obi-Wan never mentioned that to Luke. He should have known something was weird when he was in the Clone Wars and years later you got a bunch of guys that are wearing similar armor. At least we know how come Obi-Wan is able to use the mind trick on stormies.

After Han, Luke, and Chewie took out the two Stormtroopers guarding the ramp of the Falcon they should have noticed the two troops were identical. Since they didn't react to it in anyway, I would assume that the fact that they(the stormtroopers) were clones was not a big surprise.

Twin brothers?

Sure! Never tell him the odds, but damn if that is a long shot.

There is a 1981 Lucasfilm article that's been posted here before that EXPLICITLY describes the training of stormtroopers in the exact same way as in Attack of the Clones. This is official. It's just more poor EU research.