StarDestroyer.Net BBS

There are a few new additions to the Domus Publica's Analysis section, viz., the new article "Peculiar Institutions" and the addition of the Tagge Company to "A Billion Here, a Billion There..." There is also a new short story, "The Emperors." At the present time, work is underway on Part II of "Sic Transit Gloria" and the addition of Kuat Drive Yards to "A Billion Here, a Billion There...," although development may be slowed. As always, questions, comments, and suggestions are welcome and encouraged.

Bizarrely, there is one other known nonhuman senior official of the college of Moffs: Grand Moff 41-8C, an IG-88 assassin 'droid who appeared in Prisoners of the Nikto Pirates (Scholastic, 1998).

Err....what? There's an assassin droid Grand Moff?

You keep what you kill. Wait, wrong movie. My bad.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Bizarrely, there is one other known nonhuman senior official of the college of Moffs: Grand Moff 41-8C, an IG-88 assassin 'droid who appeared in Prisoners of the Nikto Pirates (Scholastic, 1998).

Err....what? There's an assassin droid Grand Moff?

Note the use of the adverb "bizarrely" accompanying Grand Moff Forwun Atesee.

I never realized that your site existed. I read it and found it very cool. You did a great job, with all kinds of evidence and support. It was a great read. Please, add more. Much more.

Why is it "Alexandr Moff Carlinson" rather than "Moff Alexandr Carlinson?" It seems to be intentional, but why is the rank in the middle?

As always an excellent read.

Something you could add to "Peculiar Institutions" is from the ImperialSourcebook, the fact, that the empire sentenced those of its citicens to labour-camp, who weren´t able to prove, that they had paid their taxes. Incidents of slavery might in fact have been acts of this kind of punishment, in BFC we learn, that the ISD Forger executed an example on a species, that didn´t paid its war-taxes.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Why is it "Alexandr Moff Carlinson" rather than "Moff Alexandr Carlinson?" It seems to be intentional, but why is the rank in the middle?

Perhaps that Moff uses it as a title as well as the name for his rank? I've seen titles used that way before... I couldn't say where for the life of me I've seen it, though. Something along the lines of "Richard, Baron Ferenczy" or some such...

Elheru Aran wrote:

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Why is it "Alexandr Moff Carlinson" rather than "Moff Alexandr Carlinson?" It seems to be intentional, but why is the rank in the middle?

Perhaps that Moff uses it as a title as well as the name for his rank? I've seen titles used that way before... I couldn't say where for the life of me I've seen it, though. Something along the lines of "Richard, Baron Ferenczy" or some such...

Some German mid-level nobility (like barons and counts) still use that format, real life examples being Mainhard Graf Nayhauss and Otto Graf Lambsdorff (though I'm not about to swear to the precise spelling of the second count's name).

Edit: I should, of course, have included another famous Otto: Otto Graf Bismarck.

Great job as always.

Elheru Aran wrote:

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Why is it "Alexandr Moff Carlinson" rather than "Moff Alexandr Carlinson?" It seems to be intentional, but why is the rank in the middle?

Perhaps that Moff uses it as a title as well as the name for his rank? I've seen titles used that way before... I couldn't say where for the life of me I've seen it, though. Something along the lines of "Richard, Baron Ferenczy" or some such...

There are Sector Governors who are not Moffs (Rebellion Era Sourcebook, Galaxy Guide 4: Alien Races), and there are Moffs who are not Sector Governors (Moff Kadir, for example, was Commander of Imperial Center Security in "Betrayal"). Notably, Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker introduces Wilhuff Tarkin as "The Grand Moff Tarkin, Governor of numerous outlying Imperial territories"; he is referred to throughout as "Governor," not as "Grand Moff" (likewise Moff Jerjerrod, who is called "Commander"). In the Death Star Technical Companion, Ars Dangor addresses Tarkin as "Governor Moff Tarkin" (Tarkin himself ommits "Moff" altogether, styling himself simply "Governor Tarkin, Seswenna Sector, Eriadu").

It seems clear then that "Moff" is a dignity or title separate from the office of Sector Governor or Regional Governor/Oversector Governor, and pertains to the person rather than the office -- i.e., a Moff ought to remain a Moff even after leaving office. In the story, Carlinson has been summoned to Imperial Center, leaving behind his office and his command, in order to appear before the Emperors in person. He does not actually hold an office at the present time, but rather retains his personal dignity as a Moff.

Here it becomes a question of fashion. In this case, the choice was made to follow the model of cardinalitial dignity in the Catholic Church (it is a common mistake to assume that "cardinal" is a rank or office; it is in fact a special dignity, with its own rights, privileges, and immunities, awarded at the sole discretion of the Supreme Pontiff to persons who hold an office already). For example, George Pell is the current archbishop of Sydney (bishop is the highest grade of Holy Orders, and all titles and offices of greater jurisdiction, such as archbishop, metropolitan, primate, major archbishop, patriarch, and pope, are in fact special types of bishop), and has held that See since March 2001; in April 2003, he was made a cardinal priest, and is therefore usually called "George Cardinal Pell," or "the Cardinal Archbishop of Sydney" (formally, he is His Eminence George Cardinal Pell, Archbishop of Sydney). The choice here was to adopt this style for aesthetic reasons, making the formal title "His Excellency Wilhuff Moff Tarkin, Governor of Seswenna Sector."

There are other usages that resemble this. Although formally "The Right Honourable the Viscount Nelson of the Nile," Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson of the Nile, is usually referred to as "Horatio, Lord Nelson"; likewise George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron, and Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson, are normally seen as "George, Lord Byron" and "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" (but were formally "The Right Honourable the Lord Byron" and "The Right Honourable the Lord Tennyson"). It is especially common for members of the German nobility – who usually lacked surnames as distinct from their territorial possessions – to use a similar name, such as Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richtofen, Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke, and Otto Eduard Leopold Graf von Bismarck.

Under present German law, the noble titles are simply surnames. Legally, then, Otto von Bismarck's surname under present law would have been "Graf von Bismarck."

Publius wrote:... It is especially common for members of the German nobility – who usually lacked surnames as distinct from their territorial possessions – to use a similar name, such as Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richtofen, Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke, and Otto Eduard Leopold Graf von Bismarck.

Under present German law, the noble titles are simply surnames. Legally, then, Otto von Bismarck's surname under present law would have been "Graf von Bismarck."

Of course, what the law says and what is common usage...

Otto Fürst von Bismarck, a descendant of the Iron Chancellor, used the princely title his ancestor had earned, using it even after he was elected into the Bundestag, for instance. Most of the other currently living descendants appear to use "von Bismarck" as their surname. (I think that technically the Iron Chancellor's full name when he was a count would have been Otto Eduard Leopold Graf von Bismarck-Schönhausen, but I am not about to swear to it.)

A different case is Otto Graf Lambsdorff, whose full proper name seems to be Otto Freiherr von der Wenge Graf Lambsdorff. His son goes by Graf Lambsdorff as well, so Graf was in that case apparently taken as part of a double surname ("Graf Lambsdorff"), as in your Bismarck example above. (Of course, Freiherr von der Wenge would translate directly into Baron of/from Wenge, neatly illustrating another of your points above.)

http://www.trilateral.org/membship/bios/ogl.htm

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Graf_Lambsdorff

However, that's probably enough of my tangential chatter for this thread.

Incidentally, nice site.

Cardinal, that's it. That's where I heard that particular titular placement.

As Patrick says, though-- enough tangential chatter... and I agree; your site is sterling as always. It's amazing how much work you've devoted to it...

There are two new additions, one to the Analysis section (Kuat Drive Yards in "A Billion Here, a Billion There...") and one to the Invention section ("The Silver Fox").

Great updates, Publius! I particulary liked the essay "Peculiar Institutions", a great piece!

Publius, I must say your site is fricken fantastic. I loved "The Emperors" and "The First Refusal."

Loving it man, keep it up.

KDY wrote:Additionally, the two moons, Bador and Ronay, contain weapons and drive-testing facilities, while three huge space stations which control all arrivals and departures insystem, devoted to passenger, freight, and military traffic.

I'm thinking that needs to be reworded, maybe just remove the 'which', I'm not sure.

You use the term Super Star Destroyer a lot when referring specifically to the Executor-class, or you mean to say Super Star Destroyers, I'm not sure which: the term to my knowledge has been well established to refer not to a specific class of vessel but rather to most KDY warships significantly larger than the common ISD, including one ship class only 2.2 km long. True, the term Super-class has been used in some sources, but I think this must be regarded as a frivilous use of the term 'class' given that more than one class of warship falls into this category.

The Silver Fox wrote:as one way a trip there's ever been.

Insert another 'as'?

I'm not sure I'm as fond of "The Silver Fox" as I am of your previous work. It seems a bit formulaic. Even so, it's no less well written than your other work, all of which I have enjoyed.

Alan Bolte wrote:You use the term Super Star Destroyer a lot when referring specifically to the Executor-class, or you mean to say Super Star Destroyers, I'm not sure which: the term to my knowledge has been well established to refer not to a specific class of vessel but rather to most KDY warships significantly larger than the common ISD, including one ship class only 2.2 km long. True, the term Super-class has been used in some sources, but I think this must be regarded as a frivilous use of the term 'class' given that more than one class of warship falls into this category.

HIMS Executor is described in the novelizations of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi as an Imperial Star Destroyer and a Super Star Destroyer. Using either in reference to her and her class is valid and acceptable, without any implication as to the formal designation. In the articles on the Domus Publica, "Imperial Star Destroyer" refers by default to the commonest mile-long variety (Imperial-class or Imperator-class, depending on the reader's stance on that issue) and "Super Star Destroyer" refers by default to the Executor-class. This is a matter of convenience and says nothing about her formal designation and nomenclature.

I'm not sure I'm as fond of "The Silver Fox" as I am of your previous work. It seems a bit formulaic. Even so, it's no less well written than your other work, all of which I have enjoyed.

"The Silver Fox" is an homage to swashbuckling adventure stories like el Zorro and the Scarlet Pimpernel. If the story ever continues, it quite obviously would include character development, but as it is, the characters are simply sketches. Tallisibeth Chambertin -- the ISB special agent assigned to investigate and eliminate the Silver Fox -- is the only character that actually appears in this story that would appear again.