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Something has been bugging me since TPM's release.

Remember back in the OT, ESB when Yoda was training Luke, and Luke asked some questions about the dark side. Later Yoda say, "A Jedi uses for the force for defence, never for attack" (something along that line).

I guess when watching ESB and ROTJ what he means is that Jedi don't use force lightning, force choke and other "aggressive/offensive" force powers, and probably only those "defensive/buffing" force powers like force speed, force jump, etc.

Fast foward to when TPM and AOTC was released. The Jedi here seem to use force push as a staple "force power". Now, when I first saw the first "force push" by the jedi, it struck me as a an "offensive" force power. Wouldn't these contradict Yoda's teaching back in ESB?

No, because push and pull is relatively not aggressive in and of itself. Choking and electrocuting is a more aggressive use of the Force in comparison.

Rommie2006 wrote:Something has been bugging me since TPM's release.

Remember back in the OT, ESB when Yoda was training Luke, and Luke asked some questions about the dark side. Later Yoda say, "A Jedi uses for the force for defence, never for attack" (something along that line).

I guess when watching ESB and ROTJ what he means is that Jedi don't use force lightning, force choke and other "aggressive/offensive" force powers, and probably only those "defensive/buffing" force powers like force speed, force jump, etc.

Fast foward to when TPM and AOTC was released. The Jedi here seem to use force push as a staple "force power". Now, when I first saw the first "force push" by the jedi, it struck me as a an "offensive" force power. Wouldn't these contradict Yoda's teaching back in ESB?

the thing is probaly a lot more then what Yoda said, but Yoda didn't have the time explain it fully.

Rommie2006 wrote:Something has been bugging me since TPM's release.

Remember back in the OT, ESB when Yoda was training Luke, and Luke asked some questions about the dark side. Later Yoda say, "A Jedi uses for the force for defence, never for attack" (something along that line).

I guess when watching ESB and ROTJ what he means is that Jedi don't use force lightning, force choke and other "aggressive/offensive" force powers, and probably only those "defensive/buffing" force powers like force speed, force jump, etc.

Fast foward to when TPM and AOTC was released. The Jedi here seem to use force push as a staple "force power". Now, when I first saw the first "force push" by the jedi, it struck me as a an "offensive" force power. Wouldn't these contradict Yoda's teaching back in ESB?

What VT-16 said, and you referred to ROTJ, notice that Luke uses Force choke on the Gamorrean guards (but Luke was of course balancing a bit there).

I guess the telekinesis is ok as they were defending themselves against a hostile enemy.

And i bet there was some smart-alec jedi who said something like "the best form of defence is attack" and went and kicked ass before going to the darkside (or at least that's what the council said.)

as far as i know force push/pull is never used aggresively. if a bunch of droid soldiers comes charging at a jedi blasters firing and he uses force push to throw them back, i see that as defensively. now if obi-wan saw a few droid soldiers just hangin around outside a bar and he used force push to throw them into a wall, thats different. im sure if you were seen using force push a little too aggresively you would have to go before the council and explain yourself

Rommie2006 wrote:Wouldn't these contradict Yoda's teaching back in ESB?

Not if you consider the very obvious fact that Yoda in ESB was a different Yoda than the one in TPM/AOTC. And I don't mean puppets, either.

The Jedi in the PT era had an arrogant demeanour and overconfident in their use of the Force, which probably led to a 'untouchable' feeling of superiority. Yet this will bring about their downfall when Anakin turns to the dark side. Yoda in ESB may very well have meditated over the last 20 years on the failings of the Jedi Order, and part of it may have had to do with the dangers of the Dark Side. Turning to the DS during the PT era may have been unheard of, or one of those 'myths' Jedi tell each other but don't take seriously, so in turn they use aggressive powers such as Force Push. Yoda probably felt this was one of the reasons the order took a nosedive.

2000AD wrote:I guess the telekinesis is ok as they were defending themselves against a hostile enemy.

And i bet there was some smart-alec jedi who said something like "the best form of defence is attack" and went and kicked ass before going to the darkside (or at least that's what the council said.)

From ROTJ novel
"the jedi rule of thumb, attack".
Luke skywalker in skiff fight against Jabba guards.

I know the games are about worthless in this regard, but as far as it goes, some powers are "neutral"-- those being push, pull, jump, and speed (in the original Jedi Knight). Other powers-- force healing, lightning, choke, that kind of thing-- were more towards one side or the other, and in JK, using more of one than the other would decide your fate. It's more ambiguous in the later games (Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy), but in general the Dark Side powers do tend to drain your strength a bit more than the light-side powers (ie, full burst with lightning will empty you out lickety-split; applying Force healing over some time will heal you completely, and while it might drain you, it'd take more time to do so than with a Dark-side power).

Just my 2c...

Rommie2006 wrote:Remember back in the OT, ESB when Yoda was training Luke, and Luke asked some questions about the dark side. Later Yoda say, "A Jedi uses for the force for defence, never for attack" (something along that line).

Yoda, like Ben have a problem telling the truth, the whole truth.

I see, guess it's a matter of interpretation.
I always thought what Yoda meant in ESB was that Jedi don't use any "active" Force Power in battle just only the force jump, force leap, force reflexes, etc.
Cos to me, during the Luke vs Vader in ESB, where Vader used the force to throw things around to hit Luke, I had always thought that even *That*(throwing items with the force at your opponent) was a "attacking" force power for dark side users only.

Perhaps I was wrong.

I have the inherent problem that is there really some form of Power that is somehow "Evil". I mean isn't it more the application then the power in of itself.

Let's take Telekinesis. Should we regard this as light as providing a shield, Dark as in choking or neutral as in moving objects?

Or should we consider it that what the weilder wants to do Dark, Light, Neutral.

This doesn't grant all powers since life sucking is not exactly any application except a purely selfish one, but most of the Force powers to go "Which are they?" is truly a futile effort since we've seen more times thenot it's their application not the power that is what determines whether the user is drunk off the Dark Side or a follower of the light.

I'm not sure if it's gained more significanse than it was suposed to have. I kind of presumed that it just meant that jedi where suposed to defend people rather than fight for any sort of gain. After all, a jedi uses the force whenever they fight with a lightsabre.

The movie itself never explictly states that there are "evil" force powers, although George Lucas "Force Lightning" is an exception.

Frankly, the "Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack" appears to be nothing more than a moral grounding, similar to how martial arts are learnt to provide exercise and defence. Its more of a "hey, don't go around using the Force to kill, plunder and pick up chicks. especially pick up chicks. That way lies the path to the Dark Side. "

Has any "good" jedi in the movies been seen using force push against living opponents?

Yoda was more interested in saving Luke's soul than anything else: he's hardly reliable.

Darwin wrote:Has any "good" jedi in the movies been seen using force push against living opponents?

Anakin, swats some Geonosians with force thrown droid parts, in the Geonosian factory.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a matter of intent. A Jedi who kills an enemy who attacks him (with his lightsabre) is using the force for defence. It's the same with force powers. See Yoda absorbing and then reflecting Dooku's force lightning.

As Stark said, maybe Yoda was just being paranoid. Maybe as of TPM/AotC it was perfectly okay for Jedi to use the Force for attacking, but Yoda told Luke a different thing, After all, the hopes of all Jedi and good in the galaxy was at stake, and the kid's father already went on a *SPOILER* Jedi Youngling */SPOILER* killing spree. Why not try to reinforce to him not to use the dark side?