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I just finished watching my ANH DVD today and noticed some odd things I never noticed before.

Why were the X-Wings and Y-Wings still in the trench when Vader came behind them? Wouldn't it have made more sense if they all pulled up and out of the trench and come back in behind the TIEs to dogfight with them? They were just sitting ducks in the trench and couldn't even fight back.

I always assumed that Han Solo blasted both of Vader's wingmen and the explosions knocked Vader's TIE away out into space. But this isn't at all what happened. Han (or Chewie) vaporized Vader's left wingman and then stopped firing completely. Vader said, "What?," and looked up at the Falcon. Vader's wingman looked up at the Falcon as well. After a moment he shouted, "Look out!," and clipped Vader's wing to send him hurtling into space and destroying himself. At this point I laughed my ass off at his blunder.

But upon further examination, I've discovered a different possiblility. Now, did he all of a sudden panick and hit Vader or did he intentionally sacrifice himself to nick Vader's wing just right to get him out of harm's way? After all, he looked up for a moment and saw the Falcon bearing down on them. To me, it looked like he assessed the situation and decided to save Vader at the cost of his own life. Pretty cool, eh?

He panicked. That's the official version.

As for pulling out to dogfight that might have resulted in their getting killed faster. I believe that the three fighter were locked togather to the targeting computer of the target men so they could all fire togather and increase their chances of hittin the port. As such the way the computer was set up was at fault and not the pilots.

Remeber Gold leader kept barking "Stay on target" This was most likely what prevented them from doing a loop de loop to hit the ties. Ie not enough time to attack ties and get back in position to hit the port. What they really needed was some designated fighter doing what Han did to save Luke.

The DS jammed their sensors as well, so they did not know who shot the other wingman. Looking back trying to find your enemy is not the best thing when you fly in tight formation.

EDIT: I thought that they did not leave the trench because they would have been unable to find it again ...

vakundok wrote: EDIT: I thought that they did not leave the trench because they would have been unable to find it again ...

More like all the nasty TL's that would have torn them to shreds, hence why they approached through the thrench in the first place

And, if they had left the trench, they would have been exposed to the DS surface cannons again.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:He panicked. That's the official version.

Where does it say that?

Isolder74 wrote:As for pulling out to dogfight that might have resulted in their getting killed faster. I believe that the three fighter were locked togather to the targeting computer of the target men so they could all fire togather and increase their chances of hittin the port. As such the way the computer was set up was at fault and not the pilots.

Never heard of that. Luke didn't need two other fighters to hit the port.

Remeber Gold leader kept barking "Stay on target" This was most likely what prevented them from doing a loop de loop to hit the ties. Ie not enough time to attack ties and get back in position to hit the port. What they really needed was some designated fighter doing what Han did to save Luke.

Wasn't that what Luke, Wedge, and Biggs were supposed to be doing before they entered the trench? Where the hell were they?

Also, admittedly I did say all of the fighters should have pulled up and out of the trench, but not all of them would have had to. If just 1 wingman of every group of 3 fighters pulled out, that probably would have been a sufficient enough force to scatter Vader and his wingmen.

vakundok wrote:The DS jammed their sensors as well, so they did not know who shot the other wingman. Looking back trying to find your enemy is not the best thing when you fly in tight formation.

Which is why I am asking why they didn't simply pull up and out of the trench, dogfight with the TIEs, and then go back in the trench.

EDIT: I thought that they did not leave the trench because they would have been unable to find it again ...

How could you lose a trench that big?

FedRebel wrote:More like all the nasty TL's that would have torn them to shreds, hence why they approached through the thrench in the first place

Mange the Swede wrote:And, if they had left the trench, they would have been exposed to the DS surface cannons again.

Those guns posed little threat to the fighters. AFAIK, not a single fighter was downed by any of the surface or trench guns. They were designed to repel capital ships, not fighters. General Dodonna said it himself in the briefing. They track much too slowly to be of any use against starfighters.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:As for pulling out to dogfight that might have resulted in their getting killed faster. I believe that the three fighter were locked togather to the targeting computer of the target men so they could all fire togather and increase their chances of hittin the port. As such the way the computer was set up was at fault and not the pilots.

Never heard of that. Luke didn't need two other fighters to hit the port.

Luke used the Force.

Remeber Gold leader kept barking "Stay on target" This was most likely what prevented them from doing a loop de loop to hit the ties. Ie not enough time to attack ties and get back in position to hit the port. What they really needed was some designated fighter doing what Han did to save Luke.

Wasn't that what Luke, Wedge, and Biggs were supposed to be doing before they entered the trench? Where the hell were they?

They were fighting with the TIE squadron that was launched.

Also, admittedly I did say all of the fighters should have pulled up and out of the trench, but not all of them would have had to. If just 1 wingman of every group of 3 fighters pulled out, that probably would have been a sufficient enough force to scatter Vader and his wingmen.

Or Vader and his wingmen would have called for reinforcements, or Vader would have sent his wingmen to fight the stray X-wing and stayed on course himself.

vakundok wrote:The DS jammed their sensors as well, so they did not know who shot the other wingman. Looking back trying to find your enemy is not the best thing when you fly in tight formation.

Which is why I am asking why they didn't simply pull up and out of the trench, dogfight with the TIEs, and then go back in the trench.

There was no time to waste.

FedRebel wrote:More like all the nasty TL's that would have torn them to shreds, hence why they approached through the thrench in the first place

Mange the Swede wrote:And, if they had left the trench, they would have been exposed to the DS surface cannons again.

Those guns posed little threat to the fighters. AFAIK, not a single fighter was downed by any of the surface or trench guns. They were designed to repel capital ships, not fighters. General Dodonna said it himself in the briefing. They track much too slowly to be of any use against starfighters.

One X-wing was seen destroyed by surface cannon fire. It's not a gurantee that guns can't track fighters, it's just more difficult.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:

FedRebel wrote:More like all the nasty TL's that would have torn them to shreds, hence why they approached through the thrench in the first place

Mange the Swede wrote:And, if they had left the trench, they would have been exposed to the DS surface cannons again.

Those guns posed little threat to the fighters. AFAIK, not a single fighter was downed by any of the surface or trench guns. They were designed to repel capital ships, not fighters. General Dodonna said it himself in the briefing. They track much too slowly to be of any use against starfighters.

Uh, Red Six (Porkins) was downed. And, if the Rebels had left the trench, they could have come up in very close proximety or the right angle for the TL cannons.

The Death Star was about to blow up their base, dogfighting was the last thing they wanted to be doing. There were 30 fighters launched, not sure have many runs they tried offscreen, but weren't the majority of fighters running distraction/interference runs for the main wing?

Meest wrote:The Death Star was about to blow up their base, dogfighting was the last thing they wanted to be doing. There were 30 fighters launched, not sure have many runs they tried offscreen, but weren't the majority of fighters running distraction/interference runs for the main wing?

Red leader's group was cutting across the axis to draw their(the turbolaser batteries) fire. so that answer to that is yes.

For the fighters weapons being slaved togather, the Gold group has one pilot saying, target locked getting a signal. Not conclusive but this implies that the weapons system on the fighters were programed to all fire their torpeedos togather

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:He panicked. That's the official version.

Even so, the suicidally-loyal TIE pilot sounds a lot cooler.

The Original Nex wrote:Luke used the Force.

You're saying Luke used the Force to make the torpedoes do a 90 degree turn down a shaft and detonate inside the thermal exhaust port, while he was struggling to get his lightsaber in TESB right in front of him?

They were fighting with the TIE squadron that was launched.

No, I'll cover that later.

Or Vader and his wingmen would have called for reinforcements,

It would have been too late for reinforcements. By the time they'd get there the DS would be gone.

or Vader would have sent his wingmen to fight the stray X-wing and stayed on course himself.

Just like he did with Wedge.

There was no time to waste.

That, I will give you.

One X-wing was seen destroyed by surface cannon fire. It's not a gurantee that guns can't track fighters, it's just more difficult.

No fighter was destroyed by anything else other than TIE Fighters or Vader's X-1. Here is a list of all the destroyed fighters seen:

1 X-Wing: Porkins was killed from an explosion from a deflection tower he and Biggs blasted.
1 X-Wing was killed by a TIE Fighter over the surface.
1 Y-Wing destroyed by Vader in the trench (Tiree).
1 Y-Wing destroyed by Vader in the trench (Hutch).
1 Y-Wing destroyed by Vader as it was coming out of the trench (Gold 5).

At this point, General Dodonna orders Red Leader to keep half his group out of range, which is Luke, Biggs, and Wedge. So that's where they were; staying away from the other group when they could have been covering their asses. It was Dodonna's fault that the extra 3 X-Wings couldn't cover the other 3 in the trench. There's the answer I've been looking for.

1 X-Wing destroyed by Vader in trench.
1 X-Wing destroyed by Vader in trench.
1 X-Wing hit by Vader over surface, crashed into surface (Red Leader).
1 X-Wing destroyed by Vader in trench (Biggs).

Not a single one of them was destroyed by the surface or trench guns.

Mange the Swede wrote:Uh, Red Six (Porkins) was downed.

As stated before, he died as a result of getting caught in the explosion of the deflection tower. He never got hit by anything else. Here is the dialogue:

Porkins: I've got a problem here.
Biggs: Eject.
Porkins: I can hold it.
Biggs: Pull up!
Porkins: No, I'm all-AAAHHH!!!!!

Then his cockpit immediately explodes and it cuts to his fighter exploding. You never see anything hit him. He was damaged somehow from the explosion.

And, if the Rebels had left the trench, they could have come up in very close proximety or the right angle for the TL cannons.

Really? And yet Red Leader, Gold Leader, and Wedge were able to do so, and very slowly and gradually at that. The only reason why Red Leader and Gold Leader died was because they both got shot down by Vader when he pulled out of the trench, and then only because they were the only ones left in their groups of 3.

Isolder74 wrote:

Meest wrote:The Death Star was about to blow up their base, dogfighting was the last thing they wanted to be doing. There were 30 fighters launched, not sure have many runs they tried offscreen, but weren't the majority of fighters running distraction/interference runs for the main wing?

Red leader's group was cutting across the axis to draw their(the turbolaser batteries) fire. so that answer to that is yes.

Ok, but that doesn't explain why the fighters we see in the trench do not pull up and dogfight when there are no other Rebel fighters in the area to cover them.

For the fighters weapons being slaved togather, the Gold group has one pilot saying, target locked getting a signal. Not conclusive but this implies that the weapons system on the fighters were programed to all fire their torpeedos togather

He says, "Computer locked, getting a signal." Shit, I think you're right.

That is probably the reason why they didn't pull out of the trench. But then why couldn't they go back in the trench when they were ready to fire?

IRG CommandoJoe wrote: As stated before, he died as a result of getting caught in the explosion of the deflection tower. He never got hit by anything else. Here is the dialogue:

Porkins: I've got a problem here.
Biggs: Eject.
Porkins: I can hold it.
Biggs: Pull up!
Porkins: No, I'm all-AAAHHH!!!!!

Then his cockpit immediately explodes and it cuts to his fighter exploding. You never see anything hit him. He was damaged somehow from the explosion.

Thats odd in one of the novels I think that wedge says it had something to do with Porkins intertial compensator and that he crashed, he didnt know he was sinking and he smashed. this thought is collaborated by the fact that porkins probably doesnt think that pulling up would do anything helpful, he dismissed the thought that he was about to crash and biggs helpful advice. watch again, you see the fighter smash through a number of things before its anihilated. nothing hit him, he hit it.

another note, if Y-wings can shoot backwards with their mounted Ion cannons why didnt they. also the guns stopped firing from the front yet we never see or hear them order all shields double stern ratehr than dobule front, this could also account for the ease with which the ties smashed the rebel fighters in the trench.

Second to Last note, Gold Five was an idiot, of course you can keep on saying stay on target when you have no fighter shooting your ass off. then when all the support was gone what did he do? he turned tail and ran.

Last note, it seemed to me that red leader got the same amount of damage that wedge incured during the run. why didnt red leader gun more power to his lower two engines and pull out rather than smash needlessly?

One X-wing was seen destroyed by surface cannon fire. It's not a gurantee that guns can't track fighters, it's just more difficult.

No fighter was destroyed by anything else other than TIE Fighters or Vader's X-1. Here is a list of all the destroyed fighters seen:

1 X-Wing: Porkins was killed from an explosion from a deflection tower he and Biggs blasted.

Porkins had a controls malfuncion, which made his snubfighter fly a nice, straight line, and he got drilled by turbolasers. Sorry. Official from the databank.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... index.html

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:

vakundok wrote:The DS jammed their sensors as well, so they did not know who shot the other wingman. Looking back trying to find your enemy is not the best thing when you fly in tight formation.

Which is why I am asking why they didn't simply pull up and out of the trench, dogfight with the TIEs, and then go back in the trench.

Emm, I was talking about the Ties. About the "panicking" Tie pilot.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:

vakundok wrote:EDIT: I thought that they did not leave the trench because they would have been unable to find it again ...

How could you lose a trench that big?

During a dogfight when there are dozens if not hundreds of similar trenches? Easily. Actually, in the novelization, Blue 10 (blue changed to red in the movie for technical reason) asked whether that was the right trench at all. Just after Blue (Red) 10 said: "I see them", Blue leader said that there was no doubt it was the right trench. After Luke said: "We' re going in full throttle", he added something similar to "do not waste time for finding the trench first and accelerate after" ...

I hope someone with the original novelisation will provide the exact quotes to back me up.

Side note: The wingman or wingmen, leaving the trench could have been handled by Vader's wingmen and would have made only easier to hit the actually dangereous (the port attacking) fighter. EDIT: Wedge was damaged, unable to stay with the others. You are suggesting that because Vader instructed his wingmen not to follow a fleeing damaged fighter, he would have instructed them not to engage attacking ones too.

Riiight. So even though he accepts that they needed to destroy the DS before it destroys the rebel base, he wants them to pull up and dogfight?

I love the part where he missed the 'use the force' part. Nah, he shot it by EYE! You fucking moron.

The Rebels sent up 30 fighters or so, of which a third made it to the trench. This could mean that the other fighters were destroyed or they (like Red Leader said) were going to try to divert the Death Star's fire. If they had sent all thirty for the exhaust port, it would have alerted Tarkin of what they were up to. He actually might have launched more fighters. As it was, only after Gold Group was shot down did the Death Star figure out what the Rebels were up to. It could be that the six fighters from Red Group were all that was left of Yavin's fighters or were all that were close enough to reach the trench in time.

At the end of the battle only thing seen flying away is Luke, Han, Wedge, and one Y-wing. Not much left of those 30 fighters after the successful hit. It appears that after Gold leader's run Red group was all that was left. There was no one to cover them and Luke's group was being reserve for the next run.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote: You're saying Luke used the Force to make the torpedoes do a 90 degree turn down a shaft and detonate inside the thermal exhaust port, while he was struggling to get his lightsaber in TESB right in front of him?

How else did he do it? His targetting comp was off remember. The Torps were fired blind.

No, I'll cover that later.

Yes, they were.

It would have been too late for reinforcements. By the time they'd get there the DS would be gone.

There was a TIE Squadron already in the area.

Just like he did with Wedge.

Wedge was leaving the scene, not pulling up to attack Vader from behind.

Porkins was killed from an explosion from a deflection tower he and Biggs blasted.

Wrong, Porkins was killed by a Turbolaser, as confirmed by the novelization.

Not a single one of them was destroyed by the surface or trench guns.

Porkin's was

As stated before, he died as a result of getting caught in the explosion of the deflection tower. He never got hit by anything else. Here is the dialogue:

Porkins: I've got a problem here.
Biggs: Eject.
Porkins: I can hold it.
Biggs: Pull up!
Porkins: No, I'm all-AAAHHH!!!!!

Then his cockpit immediately explodes and it cuts to his fighter exploding. You never see anything hit him. He was damaged somehow from the explosion.

Turbolaser did it.

Really? And yet Red Leader, Gold Leader, and Wedge were able to do so, and very slowly and gradually at that. The only reason why Red Leader and Gold Leader died was because they both got shot down by Vader when he pulled out of the trench, and then only because they were the only ones left in their groups of 3.

The TLs weren't firing at that point because the Empire had friendly fighters up at that time.

Ok, but that doesn't explain why the fighters we see in the trench do not pull up and dogfight when there are no other Rebel fighters in the area to cover them.

Because it's more important to try and get to the exhaust port, not risk getting into a dogfight.

That is probably the reason why they didn't pull out of the trench. But then why couldn't they go back in the trench when they were ready to fire?

They'd probably lose the target lock if they strayed too far from the target.

Isolder74 wrote:At the end of the battle only thing seen flying away is Luke, Han, Wedge, and one Y-wing. Not much left of those 30 fighters after the successful hit. It appears that after Gold leader's run Red group was all that was left. There was no one to cover them and Luke's group was being reserve for the next run.

Only three Y-wings made it to the trench, and 6 X-wings. Everyone else was destroyed by surface guns or TIE Fighters before-hand.

The Original Nex wrote:

IRG CommandoJoe wrote: You're saying Luke used the Force to make the torpedoes do a 90 degree turn down a shaft and detonate inside the thermal exhaust port, while he was struggling to get his lightsaber in TESB right in front of him?

How else did he do it? His targetting comp was off remember. The Torps were fired blind.

You're making the assumption that the torpedoes weren't fire and forget. The targetting computer could have just been used to help the pilots, and not the torpedoe.

Elfdart wrote:The Rebels sent up 30 fighters or so, of which a third made it to the trench.

I believe the novelisation said that four squadrons went up. If so, and basing the number of fighters in a squadron on the X-wing series, then I would think 48 fighters were involved in the battle. (the other two squardrons, which we don't see in the film, were running diversion strikes on other parts of the Death Star surface.)

Stofsk wrote:

Elfdart wrote:The Rebels sent up 30 fighters or so, of which a third made it to the trench.

I believe the novelisation said that four squadrons went up. If so, and basing the number of fighters in a squadron on the X-wing series, then I would think 48 fighters were involved in the battle. (the other two squardrons, which we don't see in the film, were running diversion strikes on other parts of the Death Star surface.)

ANH: Imperial Officer: "We count thirty Rebel ships my lord. . ."

Crown wrote:

The Original Nex wrote:

IRG CommandoJoe wrote: You're saying Luke used the Force to make the torpedoes do a 90 degree turn down a shaft and detonate inside the thermal exhaust port, while he was struggling to get his lightsaber in TESB right in front of him?

How else did he do it? His targetting comp was off remember. The Torps were fired blind.

You're making the assumption that the torpedoes weren't fire and forget. The targetting computer could have just been used to help the pilots, and not the torpedoe.

Either way, the Torps weren't locked on to anything. . .