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I've always wondered. Why were there so FEW ships at the Battle of Endor. If I remember correctly, the Imperials had 40 ISDs and the Executor. The rebels probably brought in around the same number of cap ships.

So why such a little amount. The Galactic Empire had 100k+ worth of ships, why commit so little to the Battle of Endor? I mean I knew Palpatine was a self-deluded overconfident crankly old man, but shouldnt he have deployed at least 100+ ships? And how about the Rebels, the few dozen cap ships that they sent against the Death Star II, was that ALL they had?

Your first questions answer is Yes. The Emperor was so egotistical that he figured he wouldnt need much of a force. Also He was using the DSII as an Anti-Capship weapon. As to the rebel fleet. THEYRE THE REBELS! They had no legitimate govm't thus they didnt have the kind of resources needed to pull a full capship force.

Small fleet.

That was the biggest fleet ever in the Empires history.

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Small fleet.

That was the biggest fleet ever in the Empires history.

Huh? How do you figure?

Anyway,

The Emperor figured he didn't need a fleet- he had the Death Star II, seemingly invulnerable behind the energy shield he thought his troops could protect, and the sector fleet hiding behind Endor would keep the Rebel fleet pinned while the superlaser vaporized ship after ship, until Luke Skywalker went over to the Dark Side in his rage and tried to kill the Emperor. Which was the whole point of the trap. He didn't give a shit about the Rebellion.

Also, if more ships had been arrayed at Endor, the chances of the Rebels taking the bait go down- they might sniff out a trap- the Alliance operation was predicated on the following:

"With the Imperial fleet spread throughout the galaxy, in a vain effort to engage us, it is relativlely unprotected."

Clearly, they knew they were going to find some defending warships at Endor, but not an operational Death Star and a Star Dreadnought with a fleet of Star Destroyers waiting.

one could also argue due to budget and lack of models

Also, if more ships had been arrayed at Endor, the chances of the Rebels taking the bait go down- they might sniff out a trap- the Alliance operation was predicated on the following

my toughts exactly

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Small fleet.

That was the biggest fleet ever in the Empires history.

Since when? For an Empire with over 100k cap ships, a deployment of 40 ships is miserably small. I remember reading on some EU comic about Admiral Giel assembling the "largest armada" of Imperial warships. I think that fleet consisted of several thousand ships. But even then I doubt it would be the largest armada ever assembled.

wautd wrote:one could also argue due to budget and lack of models

Also, if more ships had been arrayed at Endor, the chances of the Rebels taking the bait go down- they might sniff out a trap- the Alliance operation was predicated on the following

my toughts exactly

Yes, what you wrote in small size is why I'd hoped for a somewhat extended space battle for ROTJ. Not extended in regards to scenes, but perhaps add a few cap ships in the background, or at least put some CG lasers between the Alliance and the Imperial cap ships. The battle is somewhat static, at least in the scenes that shows cap ships close to each other without firing off a shot. There's only one scene where this happens, and that's between the Nebulon-B frigate and one ISD. Otherwise, we see nothing of that.

wautd wrote:one could also argue due to budget and lack of models

Also, if more ships had been arrayed at Endor, the chances of the Rebels taking the bait go down- they might sniff out a trap- the Alliance operation was predicated on the following

my toughts exactly

Ok. Good point. I buy it.

How about the rebels? Why so little ships. On screen evidence only points to a few dozen at max. I mean sure they are REBELS. But don't forget (assumingly) the Rebel Alliance was formed from part of the Old Republic colonies that opposed the New Order of the Galactic Empire right? Then by that defintion, shouldnt they retain at least a sizeable fleet of ships? At least a few hundred perhaps.
After all the Empire had over 100k and if the Rebels had 1% of the Empire naval strength, that still equates to a min of 1000 ships. Or can it be explained that at the early stage of the Rebel Alliance (former Old Republic resistance) initally had many ships (possibly almost 10k), but most of them had been destroyed by the time ANH started?

Incidently, most people know the scene where you can see a few Nubelon frigates at the background right? Well, the other day I was watching the DVD and looked at it frame by frame and I noticed they were moving backwards

Since EU writers tend to be mediocre at best, they never grasped the concept of supply and demand. If something becomes commonplace, it is cheapened. So they hype up vast fleets of tens or hundreds of thousands of large warships to look impressive, even though this contradicts what you infer from what's onscreen (or is implied by the movies).

1) ROTJ implies that this is an all-or-nothing gamble for the Rebellion, so every large ship they can muster is used. That's why their fleet at Endor is mostly made up (numberswise) of frigates, blockade runners and transports -ships that are completely outclassed by any model of Star Destroyer.

2) If that's pretty much all the Rebellion has, why is the Emperor's fleet so small?
a) He's stupid.
b) He's overconfident.
c) He was speaking figuratively when he said "Bring my fleet to the far side of Endor."
d) His fleet was just his personal fleet the and the other 24,960 ISDs were unavailable.
e) some combination of a-d

or...

f) Maybe those thirty or so ISDs were the bulk of his top-of-the-line ships. Maybe Palpatine didn't have tens of thousands of ISDs and in fact, most of the Empire's fleet was made up of much smaller ships with the heaviest, most powerful ships assigned to guard key areas and to form roaming strike forces. With hyperdrive that can cover the entire galaxy in hours and weapons that can wipe out the surfaces of most planets, and the only real resistance coming from two score assorted Rebel ships, why build 25,000 ISDs and enough SSDs that any hack EU writer can pull one out of his ass in a futile attempt to give his lame story some credibility?

I know this is as much an artistic argument as a military one, but if the Rebels have all these thousands of fighters and other ships (as in EU), why the fuck weren't they at Endor? If the Empire has 25,000 ISDs, why not 100 of them at Endor -if for no other reason, to launch more fighters?

Every time some EU writer faps up astronomical numbers of warships, he inadvertently cheapens what was awe-inspiring in the movies, he also creates hiccups in the story where there were none before.

A very good point, Elfdart. As you said, it was an all-or-nothing gamble, and if the Alliance had had more capital ships, they should certainly have used them.

A small nitpick. The Emperor said: "Send the fleet to the far side of Endor."

Mange the Swede wrote:A very good point, Elfdart. As you said, it was an all-or-nothing gamble, and if the Alliance had had more capital ships, they should certainly have used them.

A small nitpick. The Emperor said: "Send the fleet to the far side of Endor."

Mentioning any ships other than the ones present would not be logical. So the fleet would be the fleet sitting outside. Admiral Kimal at pearl harber refeering to the fleet would be talking about the ships in his immediate area of control. So it is possible that are more ships elswhere doing coverage to make it appear to The Rebels that the fleet is indeed dispursed throughout the galaxy.

Isolder74 wrote:

Mange the Swede wrote:A very good point, Elfdart. As you said, it was an all-or-nothing gamble, and if the Alliance had had more capital ships, they should certainly have used them.

A small nitpick. The Emperor said: "Send the fleet to the far side of Endor."

Mentioning any ships other than the ones present would not be logical. So the fleet would be the fleet sitting outside. Admiral Kimal at pearl harber refeering to the fleet would be talking about the ships in his immediate area of control. So it is possible that are more ships elswhere doing coverage to make it appear to The Rebels that the fleet is indeed dispursed throughout the galaxy.

I wasn't talking about the Imperial fleet, but the Alliance fleet. My nitpick was only about the line from ROTJ, and that doesn't support that it would be the entire Imperial Star Fleet. I'm sorry for any confusion.

im sure the emperor wanted to flex his new DSII muscle and so using more ships might scare the rebels away, while using less lets the rebels be bold enough to go to the DSII and then they will see the might of the new death star (or would have...)

Elfdart wrote:1) ROTJ implies that this is an all-or-nothing gamble for the Rebellion, so every large ship they can muster is used. That's why their fleet at Endor is mostly made up (numberswise) of frigates, blockade runners and transports -ships that are completely outclassed by any model of Star Destroyer.

That always kinda bothered me. Why bring capital ships at all if only fighters were capable of destroying the Death Star?

Elfdart wrote:2) If that's pretty much all the Rebellion has, why is the Emperor's fleet so small?
a) He's stupid.
b) He's overconfident.
c) He was speaking figuratively when he said "Bring my fleet to the far side of Endor."
d) His fleet was just his personal fleet the and the other 24,960 ISDs were unavailable.
e) some combination of a-d

The Imperial fleet at Endor was only there to form a blockade and prevent the rebels from reaching jump distance outside of the moon's gravity well.

Like the US Naxy, the Imperial "starfleet" may be divided into smaller sub-fleets (e.g. the USN's 3rd Fleet headquartered at Pearl). Why reassign fleets from other sectors when the rebels were already outnumbered at Endor?

Elfdart wrote:f) Maybe those thirty or so ISDs were the bulk of his top-of-the-line ships. Maybe Palpatine didn't have tens of thousands of ISDs and in fact, most of the Empire's fleet was made up of much smaller ships with the heaviest, most powerful ships assigned to guard key areas and to form roaming strike forces. With hyperdrive that can cover the entire galaxy in hours and weapons that can wipe out the surfaces of most planets, and the only real resistance coming from two score assorted Rebel ships, why build 25,000 ISDs and enough SSDs that any hack EU writer can pull one out of his ass in a futile attempt to give his lame story some credibility?

I see what you mean, but the EU tends to be on the conservative side anyway. However, I do think the EU overestimates the ability of their "weapons that can wipe out the surfaces of most planets," given the strength of planetary shields and artillery.

That and, "There are a lot of command ships."

I always took the "command ships" line to mean ships known to carry seniormost Imperials like Vader. Vader himself is seen on both versions of Imperator-class ISDs and the Executor.

As for why the Rebels should bring their larger ships when only fighters were needed, the cruisers could be used to shoot down enemy fighters and destroy or distract larger ships -preventing them from doing likewise to Rebel fighters and/ or preventing them from launching fighters of their own. Jeez what a runon sentence!

Rommie2006 wrote:

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Small fleet.

That was the biggest fleet ever in the Empires history.

Since when? For an Empire with over 100k cap ships, a deployment of 40 ships is miserably small. I remember reading on some EU comic about Admiral Giel assembling the "largest armada" of Imperial warships. I think that fleet consisted of several thousand ships. But even then I doubt it would be the largest armada ever assembled.

From the RotJ novel.

Vympel wrote:

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Small fleet.

That was the biggest fleet ever in the Empires history.

Huh? How do you figure?

From the RotJ novel.

That always kinda bothered me. Why bring capital ships at all if only fighters were capable of destroying the Death Star?

It was said in ROTJ that the capital ships were supposed to form a perimeter around the DSII while the fighters went inside and destroyed it. I'm guessing this was to prevent any escape from the station. Destroying the DSII would be a nice victory, but it wouldn't win the war if the Emperor was able to get away.

avoidingthepo wrote:im sure the emperor wanted to flex his new DSII muscle and so using more ships might scare the rebels away, while using less lets the rebels be bold enough to go to the DSII and then they will see the might of the new death star (or would have...)

100 ISDs wouldn't have scared the Rebels away any more than the 30-40 they actually used since the ISDs weren't going to be seen until the trap was sprung. It seems just as likely to me that maybe Palpatine didn't have 100 ISDs to spare and in any event those he did should have been more than a match for the Rebel fleet.

Elfdart wrote:Since EU writers tend to be mediocre at best, they never grasped the concept of supply and demand. If something becomes commonplace, it is cheapened. So they hype up vast fleets of tens or hundreds of thousands of large warships to look impressive, even though this contradicts what you infer from what's onscreen (or is implied by the movies).

The EU writers are the opposite of what you accuse them of being here. They're hacks, but minimilist hacks. On screen evidence does not imply small fleets at all. You're jumping to conclusions.

1) ROTJ implies that this is an all-or-nothing gamble for the Rebellion, so every large ship they can muster is used. That's why their fleet at Endor is mostly made up (numberswise) of frigates, blockade runners and transports -ships that are completely outclassed by any model of Star Destroyer.

Where was it stated that this was every ship they could muster? Furthermore, the Rebels did not count on the Imperials having much defenses. Their plan was for their capital ships to form a perimeter around the DS. They expected to be able to do this, which would have been impossible if there was a fleet there.

2) If that's pretty much all the Rebellion has, why is the Emperor's fleet so small?
a) He's stupid.
b) He's overconfident.
c) He was speaking figuratively when he said "Bring my fleet to the far side of Endor."
d) His fleet was just his personal fleet the and the other 24,960 ISDs were unavailable.
e) some combination of a-d

That explains everything. No need to go further and contradict the EU.

or...

f) Maybe those thirty or so ISDs were the bulk of his top-of-the-line ships. Maybe Palpatine didn't have tens of thousands of ISDs and in fact, most of the Empire's fleet was made up of much smaller ships with the heaviest, most powerful ships assigned to guard key areas and to form roaming strike forces. With hyperdrive that can cover the entire galaxy in hours and weapons that can wipe out the surfaces of most planets, and the only real resistance coming from two score assorted Rebel ships, why build 25,000 ISDs and enough SSDs that any hack EU writer can pull one out of his ass in a futile attempt to give his lame story some credibility?

This is ludicrously minimilist. ISDs are the smallest Imperial capital ships seen in canon. There were two of them around just Tatooine. The Death Stars are equivalent to millions of ISDs. There's no reason why the Empire can't build 25,000 ISDs, and lots of reasons why they should have been able to build much more.

I know this is as much an artistic argument as a military one, but if the Rebels have all these thousands of fighters and other ships (as in EU), why the fuck weren't they at Endor?

Maybe they were engaging the Empire in numerous small conflicts across the galaxy? Mon Mothma says that's why the Empire's forces were spread out so much.

If the Empire has 25,000 ISDs, why not 100 of them at Endor -if for no other reason, to launch more fighters?

The novelization states that the fleet at Endor was just the local sector fleet (plus the Executor and a few other ships). According to the EU, a sector fleet is 24 ISDs. That was enough to rout the Rebel fleet at Endor, and bringing in more would have been not only unnecessary, but might have given them the hint that they were walking into a trap.

I always took the "command ships" line to mean ships known to carry seniormost Imperials like Vader. Vader himself is seen on both versions of Imperator-class ISDs and the Executor.

Which makes little sense when they´re referring to an Executor-class Star Dreadnought, not any ordinary Star Destroyer.

Maybe they were engaging the Empire in numerous small conflicts across the galaxy? Mon Mothma says that's why the Empire's forces were spread out so much.

Rebel forces were organizing conflicts and uprising all around the galaxy to spread the Imperial fleets thin. I´m not sure where it was stated, but it´s there somewhere.

And imo we see two Rebel fleets during the course of the movies, a supply fleet in ESB and a fleet of warships in ROTJ. They appear to be different save for transports and frigates in both.

I refuse to believe they actually sent their entire fleet of warships to Endor for something that seemed like an easy task. It´s just ludicrous and downright irresponsible to leave Alliance-worlds undefended, and I don´t care if the EU claims it is what they did. Millions of worlds and the Rebels could only afford a few dozen cap ships? Yeah, right. EU-minimalism strikes again.

A couple of points here, but the main one is:

having only the local sector fleet + the Executor and its escorts makes sense. Rebels would have detected through spies or other means the movement of more warships to the DSII's location, and it might have spooked them, as the fleet they themselves could muster on such short notice is rather pathetic compared to a hundred ISD's or more. The rebels had to believe the battlestation was lightly defended, or they would have never attacked.

Rommie2006 wrote:Ok. Good point. I buy it.

How about the rebels? Why so little ships. On screen evidence only points to a few dozen at max. I mean sure they are REBELS. But don't forget (assumingly) the Rebel Alliance was formed from part of the Old Republic colonies that opposed the New Order of the Galactic Empire right? Then by that defintion, shouldnt they retain at least a sizeable fleet of ships? At least a few hundred perhaps.

The few ships the Rebels have are either stolen or hijacked, with a handfull being cargo/ passenger craft converted into warships. Any Old Republic craft were probably worn out/ destroyed/ stripped for parts for the newer ships. The Rebels' first win came right before ANH. So maybe a number were destroyed in earlier battles. The Rebels don't appear to have any large scale manufacturing at their disposal. Any planet caught building or repairing Rebel ships would be a ripe candidate for a BDZ, so the Mon Cal ships are probably those few ships they could give without the Empire knowing about it -kind of like GM workers in Michigan building trucks and an ambulance for the Spanish Republic by stealing parts and smuggling them out of the country during the Spanish Civil War.

The Rebels' first win came right before ANH.

That was only the fighters from the Yavin base. Never said it was the first win for the entire Rebellion.