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Some of you may have read my comments on the PT and know that I hate the way they show the Clone Wars.

These movies seem to show that the jedi and the republic are pathetic and should die. The Emperor looks like a good guy and all the EU is ignored.

Other reasons exist but I am to tired to lay them out now. Flame away

the Jedi are still too heroic for it to be imperial propaganda, but they probaly ain't so clearly rebel/NR propaganda as the OT.

If they are not propaganda then why are there two sides to this war? I mean Camaasi was burned off by an unkown party. Lets see either Separtist did it or the Republic did it. So where are the other sides? The PT is obviously a strawman piece of propaganda.

Kartr_Kana wrote:If they are not propaganda then why are there two sides to this war? I mean Camaasi was burned off by an unkown party. Lets see either Separtist did it or the Republic did it. So where are the other sides? The PT is obviously a strawman piece of propaganda.

like Republic, but not GAR or CIS but non droid, both are found in the PT:EU. And we don't know was Camaas done by either of know faction (and didn't it happen after the CW anyway). the PT is Pro-Republic propaganga yes but not pro-Empire(in universe it would have been made during the CW).

Wait.

How is the OT rebel propaganda?

Darksider wrote:Wait.

How is the OT rebel propaganda?

the Empire is depicted a stereo typical villians, where as the Rebel Alliances bad sides are pretty much covered up.

Darksider wrote:Wait.

How is the OT rebel propaganda?

Drugs.

That's my explanation for how people can think that without smacking themselves in the forehead everytime they try to defend it.

Kartr_Kana wrote:If they are not propaganda then why are there two sides to this war?

Because there's usually two sides to every war? :p

I mean Camaasi was burned off by an unkown party. Lets see either Separtist did it or the Republic did it. So where are the other sides?

Nobody knows who did it. And why is there this neccesity for additional sides?

The PT is obviously a strawman piece of propaganda.

I'm still not seeing your logic here.

Captain Cyran wrote:Drugs.

That's my explanation for how people can think that without smacking themselves in the forehead everytime they try to defend it.

no chemical products are nessery. the OT has rather clear pro-rebellion (or at least anti-Imperial) bias, the same way the PT has pro-Republic(or Anti-CIS) bias.

Lord Revan wrote:

Captain Cyran wrote:Drugs.

That's my explanation for how people can think that without smacking themselves in the forehead everytime they try to defend it.

no chemical products are nessery. the OT has rather clear pro-rebellion (or at least anti-Imperial) bias, the same way the PT has pro-Republic(or Anti-CIS) bias.

Amusingly enough, you're one of only maybe 5 people on this board that manages to see it.

Big brother is watching. Look out!

Captain Cyran wrote:Amusingly enough, you're one of only maybe 5 people on this board that manages to see it.

Big brother is watching. Look out!

are saying that the OT doesn't have a anti-empire bias (just how good points there are about the empire in the OT).

Lord Revan wrote:

Captain Cyran wrote:Amusingly enough, you're one of only maybe 5 people on this board that manages to see it.

Big brother is watching. Look out!

are saying that the OT doesn't have a anti-empire bias (just how good points there are about the empire in the OT).

I'm saying it tell a story, much like Flash Gordan does, or LotR. Or are you gonna say those are propaganda too?

Captain Cyran wrote:I'm saying it tell a story, much like Flash Gordan does, or LotR. Or are you gonna say those are propaganda too?

in universe? Probaly yes, since IIRC all there have stereo typical clear villians (you know right away who the bad guys are) in real life it's not that easy. While not the worst possible kind of propaganda it still has (in universe, not in RL) anti-imperial bias (it's very clear about bad things about the empire and good things about the Rebels.) stories like that can be always considered to bias against the "bad-guys".

Lord Revan wrote:

Captain Cyran wrote:I'm saying it tell a story, much like Flash Gordan does, or LotR. Or are you gonna say those are propaganda too?

in universe? Probaly yes, since IIRC all there have stereo typical clear villians (you know right away who the bad guys are) in real life it's not that easy.

Too bad suspension of disbelief is on my side. And it's saying "Aww, it's too bad real life isn't like that. Because I'm saying the Imperials are assholes."

While not the worst possible kind of propaganda it still has (in universe, not in RL) anti-imperial bias (it's very clear about bad things about the empire and good things about the Rebels.) stories like that can be always considered to bias against the "bad-guys".

I have yet to see anything that could be used as any type of proof that the OT are propoganda beyond "Well real life isn't like that."

think about it this you have the sides

for OT we have the GE (which is beond any dout "Evil", but an absolut evil with any merits) and the rebels (who are a lot better then the GE, but saints)

for PT we have the CIS (who are greedy and ruthless, but not psycopaths) and the Republic (which is democratic, but corrupt and inefficient).

Both the OT and PT are told from POV of "good guy", so while what they tell is the truth, it's not the whole truth.(you could tell whole truth in 2 h movie anyway).

If the prequels are 'Imperial Propaganda,' it follows they are being disseminated by an office 'after the fact,' and while the Jedi are cast in a poor light, there is so much more that a smear campaign could have done to their reputation. (Just why *do* they take young children away from their parents, hmmm?)

At the same time, why would a pro-Imperial piece lay bare anything in regards to Darth Sidious? Sure, he's playing the Senate like a fiddle, but in the end, he's a master manipulator, a bad guy - not someone who merely happened to step up to the plate when needed.

As propaganda, it fails miserably.

Consequently, if the OT is 'Rebel Propaganda,' we're not shown any of the horror or brutality of the Empire. Sure, we see Alderaan blown into bite-sized chunks, but we don't see a true oh-my-god moment. (For example, as disturbing as the images of the planes crashing into the Twin Towers on 9/11 are, images of people reacting in the aftermath are the ones that elicit an emotional response - the rescuers working to save people that may not even be alive; firefighters raising the American flag in a poignant echo of Iwo Jima; the shot of union steelworkers leaving other construction sites, rolling up their sleeves and saying, 'Let's get to work!'; and so on.)

EU novels hint at Imperial Propaganda - the Death Star was really a Rebel invention, and the Emperor himself gave his life to stop their diabolical plot. But again, if that's the baseline level of Imperial media, the OT is a crappy job of countering it.

Lord Revan wrote:think about it this you have the sides

for OT we have the GE (which is beond any dout "Evil", but an absolut evil with any merits) and the rebels (who are a lot better then the GE, but saints)

And you have yet to prove this was not actually the case.

for PT we have the CIS (who are greedy and ruthless, but not psycopaths) and the Republic (which is democratic, but corrupt and inefficient).

And you have yet to prove this was not actually the case.

Both the OT and PT are told from POV of "good guy", so while what they tell is the truth, it's not the whole truth.(you could tell whole truth in 2 h movie anyway).

Burden of proof is on you to conclusively prove that the Empire is not evil, and Suspension of disbelief states that the Empire is just plain evil. Remember the lines "The Evil Empire" in the openning scrawl?

for both the OT and the PT propaganda is way too rash a word use as said they don't work.

But do have the POV of who ever made the films (in universe that is).

And IIRC Palpatine didn't make his Sith indenty public, so in an Imperial propaganda there would probaly be any mentions of "Darth Sidious".

Captain Cyran wrote:Burden of proof is on you to conclusively prove that the Empire is not evil, and Suspension of disbelief states that the Empire is just plain evil. Remember the lines "The Evil Empire" in the openning scrawl?

they did fix some of problems of old republic (which degraded to almost usefullness by the of the PT) and did bring order after the CW (this said in the ANH novelization). And for CIS, it's leaders are business "men" who only the profit (there's no profit in killing every body). Only Gen Grievous and Dooku are pure evil (the rest are just greedy idiots).

Lord Revan wrote:for both the OT and the PT propaganda is way too rash a word use as said they don't work.

What?

But do have the POV of who ever made the films (in universe that is).

Suspension of disbelief says that these are not films made after the fact, but actual events as they occur. (I think, correct me if I'm wrong on this.) You're going off the assumption that these are movie made after the war, instead of basically seeing real events happening real time that you managed to save (I believe would be a better analogy of how it should work.)

And IIRC Palpatine didn't make his Sith indenty public, so in an Imperial propaganda there would probaly be any mentions of "Darth Sidious".

But on the other hand the PT's make it obvious to everyone that "Guess who Palpatine is, that's right. He's Sidious!"

What?

they do not work as propaganda, period.

Suspension of disbelief says that these are not films made after the fact, but actual events as they occur. (I think, correct me if I'm wrong on this.) You're going off the assumption that these are movie made after the war, instead of basically seeing real events happening real time that you managed to save (I believe would be a better analogy of how it should work.)

I consider them documentaries filmed when they happened (hench the "film maker"), I'm not assuming they're made after the war(s) (a Michael Moore documentary is gonna reflect his POV, right?).

But on the other hand the PT's make it obvious to everyone that "Guess who Palpatine is, that's right. He's Sidious!"

so they probaly ain't imperial propaganda, but documantries made during the events (which Palpy later failed to destroy).

Lord Revan wrote:they did fix some of problems of old republic (which degraded to almost usefullness by the of the PT) and did bring order after the CW (this said in the ANH novelization).

On the same note Stalin and Hitler brought order to their countries, and fixed their economic situations, didn't make them good people.

And for CIS, it's leaders are business "men" who only the profit (there's no profit in killing every body). Only Gen Grievous and Dooku are pure evil (the rest are just greedy idiots).

Mostly I just leave it as, much like the Republic, the CIS were patsies to the really big players.

Captain Cyran wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:they did fix some of problems of old republic (which degraded to almost usefullness by the of the PT) and did bring order after the CW (this said in the ANH novelization).

On the same note Stalin and Hitler brought order to their countries, and fixed their economic situations, didn't make them good people.

I do not claim they nor do that Palpatine was (he was a Sith lord for christ sake). What I'm saying is that is not as bad or Rebel alliance as good as seem at the first glance.

Kartr_Kana wrote:Some of you may have read my comments on the PT and know that I hate the way they show the Clone Wars.

I like it, but moving on.

These movies seem to show that the jedi and the republic are pathetic and should die.

That's what you personally take away from them. Maybe the Republic and Jedi did need a boot in the arse. Doesn't mean the films are advocating the death of those institutions.

The Emperor looks like a good guy and all the EU is ignored.

The Emperor looks like a good guy ... how? He started a galactic war, playing both sides so he could get in power and keep it that way.

As for "the EU is ignored" ... the EU hardly deals with the PT era, and for good reason- George Lucas didn't want EU stories interfering with that part of the continuity. It's his story to tell and he has never and will never have his creativity restricted by the work of his licensees. So where does this claim come from?

Vympel wrote:As for "the EU is ignored" ... the EU hardly deals with the PT era, and for good reason- George Lucas didn't want EU stories interfering with that part of the continuity. It's his story to tell and he has never and will never have his creativity restricted by the work of his licensees. So where does this claim come from?

At a guess he's refering to one line in the TTT where they mention 'clone masters' unleashing clones on the galaxy hence; The Clone War.

Personally that's the image I had in my mind too from Obi-Wan's spiel in ANH about the Clone wars.