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This is where I am getting this from- in Episode II in Dex's Diner:
DEXTER JETTSTER
This baby belongs to them cloners.
What you got here is a Kamino
Kyberdart.

OBI-WAN
Kamino Kyberdart... I wonder why
it didn't show up in any analysis
archive.

DEXTER JETTSTER
It's these funny little cuts on
the side give it away...
Those analysis droids you've got
over there only focus on symbols,
you know. I should think you Jedi
would have more respect for the
difference between knowledge and
wisdom.

OBI-WAN
Well, Dex, if droids could think, we
wouldn't be here, would we?
(laughing)

So OB1 is saying that droids do not think that they simply run on pure logic? This is quite facinating. If they do not think, how do they manage complex tasks such as language or fixing things. How do you explain C3po's and R2D2's behaviour if they can't think?

To further back up this idea - later in the movie, on Kamino , Lama Su primeminister of Kamino says this to OB1:

"They're immensely superior to
droids, capable of independent
thought and action." (that was the script version the movie is slighty different but the same idea) movie says "they can think collectively"
- implying that droids are limited and cannot think ouitside their programming, pick up body signals from other individuals - or for that matter can't even think - simply do what is instructed.

What do you guys think?

I was under the impression that 'service' droids routinely had their memory wiped specifically to prevent them from attaining independent thoughts. C3P0 and R2 are examples of what happens when droids go too long without a wipe, they develope personalities.
Another example form the movies. IG-88. It's a bounty hunter, and hunting things does involve the need for intuitive thought and planning.

I'm sure there are examples from the EU that have other droids displaying independent thought as well. I'm just not as familiar with the EU.

There´s this one droid in EU who even uses biological beings as slaves, so I´d say the independent thought is there as a potential. At least for the more advanced droid-types.

I know that in the EU books serious The Black Fleet Crisis, C3-PO talks to Lobot about what it means to be alive, senient and capable of independent thought. Lando mentions something about how he would have wiped C3-PO's memory during regular maintenace, which wouldn't have left the droid so "strange".

"Clones can think creatively" is the precise quote; ie - droids are machines, and do what is in their operational programming -- men are trained, not programmed, and thus are capable of "outside the box" thinking -- which in warfare, would definitely have advantages

DV8R wrote:OBI-WAN
Kamino Kyberdart... I wonder why
it didn't show up in any analysis
archive.

DEXTER JETTSTER
It's these funny little cuts on
the side give it away...
Those analysis droids you've got
over there only focus on symbols,
you know. I should think you Jedi
would have more respect for the
difference between knowledge and
wisdom.

OBI-WAN
Well, Dex, if droids could think, we
wouldn't be here, would we?
(laughing)

So OB1 is saying that droids do not think that they simply run on pure logic? This is quite facinating. If they do not think, how do they manage complex tasks such as language or fixing things. How do you explain C3po's and R2D2's behaviour if they can't think?

I wouldn't read too much into that. It looked to me that Dex has an anti-droid bias and Obi-Wan basically nodding in agreement to stay on Dex's good side so that he could use him again if he needed more information.

Having droids that only focus on symbols is ridiculous. There are plenty of things that don't have symbols to analyze. The real reason that the droids couldn't find it was because all information relating to Kamino was purged from the Jedi archives. Dex is most likely wrong in his reasoning that they "only" check for symbols (especially since we know droids can recognize things without symbols... like distinguishing people from other people).

The scene doesn't really prove anything either way.

To further back up this idea - later in the movie, on Kamino , Lama Su primeminister of Kamino says this to OB1:

"They're immensely superior to
droids, capable of independent
thought and action." (that was the script version the movie is slighty different but the same idea) movie says "they can think collectively"
- implying that droids are limited and cannot think ouitside their programming, pick up body signals from other individuals - or for that matter can't even think - simply do what is instructed.

Would you purchase independently-thinking battle droids? Didn't think so. Doesn't really say anything about other types of droids, which do appear to have some measure of independent thought (such as R2-D2).

Again, because of the context here, I don't think one should read too much into the scene.

Mad wrote: I wouldn't read too much into that. It looked to me that Dex has an anti-droid bias and Obi-Wan basically nodding in agreement to stay on Dex's good side so that he could use him again if he needed more information.

Having droids that only focus on symbols is ridiculous. There are plenty of things that don't have symbols to analyze. The real reason that the droids couldn't find it was because all information relating to Kamino was purged from the Jedi archives. Dex is most likely wrong in his reasoning that they "only" check for symbols (especially since we know droids can recognize things without symbols... like distinguishing people from other people).

Not neccesary. We all know that any search parameter relies on what you search for. Dex notation of "symbol" may had been too simplistic, but it isn't neccesary that they failed to notice the dart because they didn't know where to look, same as how Obi-wan didn't know where the dart came from. We do know from The New Rebellion that droids couldn't replace shell hunters as no one could programme the differences into searchers.

Would you purchase independently-thinking battle droids? Didn't think so. Doesn't really say anything about other types of droids, which do appear to have some measure of independent thought (such as R2-D2).

Again, because of the context here, I don't think one should read too much into the scene.

Not to mention, "creative" is an absurd concept when we learn that the clonetroopers are genetically modified to be more docile and responsive to orders. "creativity" and obedience to orders do not match. In lieu of the tactics and command style of the two armies, Lama Su is probably trying to say that the Clone Army command is more flexibible and squad based in the German style, as opposed to the inflexible and regimented style of the Droid armies.

Not docile (which whould be useless for soldiers )

"Less independant than the original Host"

Which, given the original host, makes a helluva lot of sense

DV8R wrote: DEXTER JETTSTER
It's these funny little cuts on
the side give it away...
Those analysis droids you've got
over there only focus on symbols,
you know. I should think you Jedi
would have more respect for the
difference between knowledge and
wisdom.

First, the difference between knowledge and wisdom may be what H.I. Hayakawa called 'levels of abstraction.' It is possible to recognize an item as a sword, but not necessarily know all of the details that go with it; a katana can be described in technical terms pertaining to the flexibility and characteristics of metal ... but the 'wisdom' component would be understanding the how and why of its making.

Similarly, the analysis droids can tell you everything you need to know about the dart's composition, the toxin on its points, but it's the seemingly trivial item - the 'funny cuts on the side, here' that tips Dex off to the dart's origin. He got that information from the vast store of experience he's had in his life, with wisdom being equated to the unique manner in which humans and other sentient life forms associate items.

Sure, you could argue that it's all knowledge - understanding that the ANH lightsabers were built on old camera flash units is not 'wisdom,' per se - though envisioning the flash unit as the basis for an imaginary weapon might be.

So OB1 is saying that droids do not think that they simply run on pure logic? This is quite facinating. If they do not think, how do they manage complex tasks such as language or fixing things. How do you explain C3po's and R2D2's behaviour if they can't think?

Language is a series of rules and meanings associated with symbols (i.e. alphabets). A droid might, however, fail to recognize a particular use of slang or jargon.

Fixing things is also a linear skill, the components and parts being listed in a database. Even repair attempts would be based on a diagnostic routine, a step-by-step evaluation of components.

That doesn't mean they can think.

Google 'Turing Test' and do a little reading on Alan Turing and his criteria for determining if a machine qualifies as AI/sentient - simplified, an observer must be able to hold a prolonged conversation with the subject and be unable to tell if he is speaking to a machine or human being.

The old computer program Eliza would fail this test.


Eliza: How are you?
User: Lousy.
Eliza: Why do you feel lousy?
User: Because I have a headache.
Eliza: Why do you have a headache?


... and so on. Eliza was never really 'responding' to the user, only selecting keywords and pursuing questions accordingly.

Burak Gazan wrote:"Clones can think creatively" is the precise quote; ie - droids are machines, and do what is in their operational programming -- men are trained, not programmed, and thus are capable of "outside the box" thinking -- which in warfare, would definitely have advantages

I-5 Bitch

Nick Lancaster wrote:Google 'Turing Test' and do a little reading on Alan Turing and his criteria for determining if a machine qualifies as AI/sentient - simplified, an observer must be able to hold a prolonged conversation with the subject and be unable to tell if he is speaking to a machine or human being.

Sorry. Wars Droids pass. When reprogrammed, it was impossible to tell Guri from a normal woman no matter how long one talked to her. The same is true of many other droids such as 3P0 or R2.

Even a trade fed battledroid has a good chance of passing. Note that in TPM they demonstrate humour "Err.... wait... errr... You're under arrest!"

That's just anti-droid predjudice. Many droids in SW are fully sentient. Many others, would eventually becone sentient, were they not routinely memory wiped to prevent a machine rebellion.

Let's not forget the real hero of the SW universe is...R2-D2!

Note that in TPM they demonstrate humour

And in AOTC, fear:

*Upon seeing the Acklay*

Droid 1: Oh-oh!

Droid 2: Roger, roger!

*They run away*

Mad wrote:I wouldn't read too much into that. It looked to me that Dex has an anti-droid bias and Obi-Wan basically nodding in agreement to stay on Dex's good side so that he could use him again if he needed more information.

More it seems to me that the anti-droid bias is something they have in common, Obi-Wan has only demonstrated contempt for droids in all the movies, has never cared for 3P0 or R2. Not in the OT, nor in the PT.

Just thought of something, maybe it could be a sort of foreshadowing to both Grievous and Vader, since they have mostly robotic parts and could be considered droid-like (especially Grievous, since he only has eyes, brain and guts left.)

Slartibartfast wrote:

Mad wrote:I wouldn't read too much into that. It looked to me that Dex has an anti-droid bias and Obi-Wan basically nodding in agreement to stay on Dex's good side so that he could use him again if he needed more information.

More it seems to me that the anti-droid bias is something they have in common, Obi-Wan has only demonstrated contempt for droids in all the movies, has never cared for 3P0 or R2. Not in the OT, nor in the PT.

I don't think he was openly hostile to any droids in the PT, and in the OT he was quite warm and sincere to Artoo when Luke was unconscience.

NecronLord wrote:

Nick Lancaster wrote:Google 'Turing Test' and do a little reading on Alan Turing and his criteria for determining if a machine qualifies as AI/sentient - simplified, an observer must be able to hold a prolonged conversation with the subject and be unable to tell if he is speaking to a machine or human being.

Sorry. Wars Droids pass. When reprogrammed, it was impossible to tell Guri from a normal woman no matter how long one talked to her. The same is true of many other droids such as 3P0 or R2.

I never said they didn't. I only recommended Turing so the OP could examine the question on their own as well.

Crown wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

Mad wrote:I wouldn't read too much into that. It looked to me that Dex has an anti-droid bias and Obi-Wan basically nodding in agreement to stay on Dex's good side so that he could use him again if he needed more information.

More it seems to me that the anti-droid bias is something they have in common, Obi-Wan has only demonstrated contempt for droids in all the movies, has never cared for 3P0 or R2. Not in the OT, nor in the PT.

I don't think he was openly hostile to any droids in the PT, and in the OT he was quite warm and sincere to Artoo when Luke was unconscience.

Well he was old then. Probably senile, confused Artoo with a nephew or something.

Something to keep in mind, the Star Wars galactic civilization seems to have different criteria for sentience. (Endor natives were not classified as intelligent)

That being said, I'm still not entirely sure whether SW Droids are actually intelligent or just very well programmed to appear as such.