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I was sitting thinging about Darksaber the other day. More spacifically i've been thinking about Shockwave, the flagship of Warlord Harrsk's fleet.

The Destroyer is discribed as larger than a normal ISD and packing "high energy weapons" so what class is it?

I'd guess an Allegiance class.

Yes, not much info available on it. Even Saxton doesn't have much.

There's precisely no reason why it would be an Allegiance over any other larger-than-ISD-type. I haven't the slightest idea why everyone automatically leaps to that assumption.

Why not assume it's an Allegiance type?

President Sharky wrote:Why not assume it's an Allegiance type?

It has much more firepower than we'd expect from a vessel only slightly larger than an Alleigance (judging by its ability to destroy a VSD in one volley)

President Sharky wrote:Why not assume it's an Allegiance type?

Why not assume it's like the Vengeance seen in Dark Forces II? Or a SSD? Or any of the other multi-kilometer ships seen in Dark Empire? There's absolutely no reason to assume it's the same class as the Allegiance. There's simply not enough evidence.

President Sharky wrote:Why not assume it's an Allegiance type?

This kind of rhetorical technique is not as smart as it sounds. It still implicitly treats the "Allegiance theory" as the default, without justifying why. The ultimate default stance - before any evidence - is "we do not know."

Its been a while since I read the appropriate nook, but does it actually say its physically larger ?

I can't remember its been so long, only that its got more powerful guns and shields, ...

"Larger and more powerful than the eight Star Destroyers accompanying it..." I believe is the line.

It might just be a bigger standard star destroyer (Imperial class). You could perhaps extent the hull a bit to give extra size & power without massive redesigns of key systems. Thats what I always assumed.

Altering the main power generation systems and sources will drastically alter the mass-energy of the warship. Additional, heavier weapons systems will require more extensive bracing to deal with recoil effects. Redesigns of existing vessels are more difficult and considered more extensive than many people realize. IRL navies have often declared refitted/modified classes as class all their own.

Jim Raynor wrote:

President Sharky wrote:Why not assume it's an Allegiance type?

Why not assume it's like the Vengeance seen in Dark Forces II? Or a SSD? Or any of the other multi-kilometer ships seen in Dark Empire? There's absolutely no reason to assume it's the same class as the Allegiance. There's simply not enough evidence.

Because it's called a Star Destroyer. If it was significantly larger than an ISD, it wouldn't be a destroyer anymore. It would be a cruiser or battle cruiser. Allegiance type destroyers have been witnessed coordinating battle fleets in Dark Empire and Dark Empire II, a role identical to that of the Shockwave. While there certainly is no conclusive evidence as to the fact, it is reasonable to assume that the Shockwave belongs to the same class as the Allegiance because of its identical role in battle and its similar supposed size.

President Sharky wrote:Because it's called a Star Destroyer. If it was significantly larger than an ISD, it wouldn't be a destroyer anymore. It would be a cruiser or battle cruiser.

Not only is this controversial, but terminology must be analyzed contextually with the text in which it appears. Needless to say, Kevin J. Anderson's novels in general and Darksaber specifically call everything wedge-shaped a "Destroyer" or "Star Destroyer."

Since Darksaber describes the Executor-class as a "Destroyer" the "'Destroyer' implies a smaller type of warship" argument is inconvincing.

President Sharky wrote:Allegiance type destroyers have been witnessed coordinating battle fleets in Dark Empire and Dark Empire II, a role identical to that of the Shockwave.

So have Executor-class battlecruisers, the class to which HIMS Vengeance belongs to, ADM Giel's flagship, etc. This argument is also inconvincing.

President Sharky wrote:While there certainly is no conclusive evidence as to the fact, it is reasonable to assume that the Shockwave belongs to the same class as the Allegiance because of its identical role in battle and its similar supposed size.

It is no reasonable to assume that the Shockwave belongs to the same class as HIMS Allegiance than it is to assume it belongs to that of HIMS Vengeance or the "hunchback cruiser."

President Sharky wrote: Because it's called a Star Destroyer. If it was significantly larger than an ISD, it wouldn't be a destroyer anymore. It would be a cruiser or battle cruiser.

The Executor is also called a "Star Destroyer" in the novelizations and scripts. The term "Star Destroyer" is rather useless as an indication of the vessel's capabilities. (BEsides which, IIRC the Alleigance is referred to as a "Super Star Destroyer", not a "Star Destroyer." So its still rather useless.)

Allegiance type destroyers have been witnessed coordinating battle fleets in Dark Empire and Dark Empire II, a role identical to that of the Shockwave. While there certainly is no conclusive evidence as to the fact, it is reasonable to assume that the Shockwave belongs to the same class as the Allegiance because of its identical role in battle and its similar supposed size.

No conclusive evidence? A Victory-class Star Destroyer more than likely has a shield dissipation rating of around e23-e24 watts (based on comparison to the Venator, which is of comparable volume to the VSD, and comparison between the Acclamator - the lower limit, and the ISD - the Upper limit.) Heat sink capacity is approximately 2 to 3 orders of magnitude greater than dissipation capacity (based on ROTJ for example.)

At the very least, the sustained firepower of the Shockwave is e25 watts, but this is the absolute conservative value (and about what an ISD outputs.) Being substantially larrger and carrying more weapons (and including the fact no VSD has ever been destroyed in a single volley by an ISD) the Shockwave is unliekly to be even remotely close to an ISD's firepower.

Moreowver, the upper limit is around e27 watts - putting it close to the estimated firepower of the Executor. Since the Shockwave is far smaller than the Executor, it is unlikely to have comparable firepower (there is a very small chance it does if it is a dedicated warship, but I am not holding out hope on this.)

That means it falls somewhere in the middle range.. about e26 watts.. which is about "cruiser range" you could say (at least going by Saxtonian classification, at least, which I am for simplicity's sake.)

This is borne out by the simple fact it took the sustained firepower of somewhere between sixty-some VSDs (those that survived the battle to escape after destroying the Shockwave) and 100 VSDs (the number Daala noted.) to demolish the Shockwave, which would put it FAR above the durability of a mere ISD (which is outgunned by no more than 6 VSDs/VEnators, tops.) The exact output depends on the duration of output, but it does fall towards the E26-e27 range regardless, and the limitations for the e27 range I outlined above still apply. (It could have taken a matter of seconds or minutes for the Shockwave to have been destroyed, incidentally.)

Can we even assume, that those VSDs in DarkSaber were up to specs?

They died like flies, the eight kilometer long Nighthammer wouldn't have been so special, if the Shockwave would have been close in size ect. .

Volume-wise an ISD outpowers a VSD 6:1, an Allegiance is estimated to be three times as powerful as an ISD (ISD-I or ISD-II), so it should be at least 18times as powerful as a single Victory. Shouldn't that be enough to destroy a VSD with one volley?

Keep in mind, that something like a quater of the reactor-output goes into shields and the weapons-output must be of similar size, if two ships of the same class are fighting each other for some time.

eight kilometer long Nighthammer

The Night Hammer was a 17.6km long Executor-class ship, with 100 times the volume of an ISD.

You have a picture confirmung the Nighthammer to be an Executor and not an eight kilometer long look-alike?

From the novel we have only Pellaeon claiming it to be Executor-Class. He also claims, that it is eight kilometers long? Which of the two claims is correct in the absence of additional evidence? About his bullshit about the Executor bancrupting the empire i don't want to talk.

Since we know how big an Executor-class is, Pellaeon actually served in the Battle of Endor and would thus know first-hand what one's like, and a huge number of books (WEG, the entire X-wing series, etc.) all claimed the Executor was 8km long, which is more likely? Besides, it's KJA we're talking about here. He obviously meant for it to be an Executor-class ship, despite not even bothering to properly research the size or cost. Idiocy from him comes standard.