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This is my first post in this part of the forum.

I was watching the trailer for the Revenge of the Sith, and it looks fucking awesome. I can't wait to see it.

Yoda clearly states that the dark side is not stronger.

Why is it that Luke has absolutely no chance whatsoever against the Emporer when they battled? He didn't even get a good shot at him. The energy lancing he was shooting at him completely incapacitated him.

Is it simply that as a very young Jedi, he did not learn the more fancy tricks of the force and was therefore just woefully outmatched?

Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?

hmmmm. What else....

What EXACTLY does the dark side use as it's main "weapon" that the Jedi's don't? On the trailer Palpatine mentions using it "unnaturally".

Justforfun000 wrote: Why is it that Luke has absolutely no chance whatsoever against the Emporer when they battled? He didn't even get a good shot at him. The energy lancing he was shooting at him completely incapacitated him.

Which battle are you talking about?

Is it simply that as a very young Jedi, he did not learn the more fancy tricks of the force and was therefore just woefully outmatched?

Again, what battle between Luke and the Emperor? All I can remember is Dark Empire...

Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?

What is your question here?

What EXACTLY does the dark side use as it's main "weapon" that the Jedi's don't? On the trailer Palpatine mentions using it "unnaturally".

He was talking about extending life to the point where you practically don't die -- which is what Palpatine did.

Justforfun000 wrote:This is my first post in this part of the forum.

I was watching the trailer for the Revenge of the Sith, and it looks fucking awesome. I can't wait to see it.

Yoda clearly states that the dark side is not stronger.

Why is it that Luke has absolutely no chance whatsoever against the Emporer when they battled? He didn't even get a good shot at him. The energy lancing he was shooting at him completely incapacitated him.

Is it simply that as a very young Jedi, he did not learn the more fancy tricks of the force and was therefore just woefully outmatched?

I'd chalk it up to inexperience, and the fact that no one told him that Sith lords can fire lightning out of their hands.

Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?

The lightning fried Vader's life support systems.

What EXACTLY does the dark side use as it's main "weapon" that the Jedi's don't? On the trailer Palpatine mentions using it "unnaturally".

Rage, and hate, these are the weapons of the Dark side.

I think the dark side looks more powerfull because most powers that seem (to an outsider) powerfull (like Force lightning) draw power from the dark side of the force (as most light side powers are constuctive and suddle in nature), but in the end the only thing that matters is power/skill of the user (or Yoda put "much to lear you still have" after absorbing Dooku Force lightning). As for Luke it's lack of training (mostly), he did even know that Force lightning were possible until he hit by one.

As Yoda said in the OT the Darkside is the quick and easy path. After only a short time Dark Jedi can do much more than their Jedi counterparts however this power is not without price.

Which battle are you talking about?

In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?

Again, what battle between Luke and the Emperor? All I can remember is Dark Empire...

Oh, I think I see the problem...There are books regarding this too aren't there? Sorry, I only know the movies.

What is your question here?

I think it got answered below...

He was talking about extending life to the point where you practically don't die -- which is what Palpatine did.

I didn't know this. Is this mentioned in the books? I don't recall it in the movies...

I'd chalk it up to inexperience, and the fact that no one told him that Sith lords can fire lightning out of their hands.

Lol. It must have been quite the bitch. "Fucking Yoda didn't warn me about THIS!!!!!. AGGHHHHHHHH"

The lightning fried Vader's life support systems.

That was my thought, but I wasn't certain.

Rage, and hate, these are the weapons of the Dark side.

Right, right....I recall that being a major focus...but how exactly does this make it "unnatural"? Rage and hate are still natural human emotions.

As Yoda said in the OT the Darkside is the quick and easy path. After only a short time Dark Jedi can do much more than their Jedi counterparts however this power is not without price.

So the question that comes to me is, how powerful are the sith compared to Jedi? Do you have to become an uber Jedi like Yoda in order to even hope to be strong enough to tackle one?

I notice it's telling that our lord Darth Wong has the highest status reserved for "sith lord" and NOT Jedi knight...

In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?

Nitpick: they weren't fighting. Palpatine was lancing a defenseless Luke with Force lightning. Hardly a battle.

Justforfun000 wrote: In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?

Already taken care of by Fox, but yeah, they weren't fighting really.

Oh, I think I see the problem...There are books regarding this too aren't there? Sorry, I only know the movies.

Yeah, Dark Empire has a fight between Palpy and Luke.

I didn't know this. Is this mentioned in the books? I don't recall it in the movies...

Yeppers, it's mentioned in Dark Empire I and II (comic books).

Keep in mind that there being only two, the Sith are naturally very selective in their recruiting. While the Jedi might recruit people of various levels, I doubt a Sith Lord is going to waste an apprenticeship on anyone not in that elite top 1%.

Well, Yoda did say in TESB I believe that the Dark side is not more powerful, only more seductive. I think that Luke couldn't hold his own against the Emperor based mainly on his limited experience and training as a jedi, rather than the darkside being more powerful.

So then the question is, why does the emporer insist that the dark side is so much stronger. Is he just deluding himself?

He made references many times to the dark side being far more powerful.

"Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side", etc.

I would hope in the last movie there is some effort in proving HOW the light side is superior. Subtle or not.

Firefox wrote:

In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?

Nitpick: they weren't fighting. Palpatine was lancing a defenseless Luke with Force lightning. Hardly a battle.

Defenseless? Luke just beat Vader is a lightsabre battle...defenseless is hardly the term I'd apply to that level of power...

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:

Justforfun000 wrote:Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?

The lightning fried Vader's life support systems.

Where was this stated or confirmed? SOTE quite clearly states Vader needs the DS to even breath comfortably, let alone still live. Killing the Emperor means Vader rejects the DS, Anakin returns... and lo, dies soon after, because the Force that had been sustaining him is now no longer available.

And really... Luke survives the Emperor's lightning and Vader doesn't, when Vader's the one wearing armour? It might not offer that much more protection than a black tunic, but how long was Luke being zapped compared to Vader? And both know how to deflect energy, the only difference between the two is that Luke learnt while he was being electrocuted, and couldn't deflect all of the energy from the Emperor's lightning, while Vader was quick enough to deflect blaster shots from a quickdraw like Han Solo.

Robert Walper wrote:

Firefox wrote:

In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?

Nitpick: they weren't fighting. Palpatine was lancing a defenseless Luke with Force lightning. Hardly a battle.

Defenseless? Luke just beat Vader is a lightsabre battle...defenseless is hardly the term I'd apply to that level of power...

He was defenceless at the moment Palpatine decided to kill him. Luke had pitched away his sabre (rather foolishly, in hindsight), and had no means with which to defend himself.

Frankly, the only possible reasons I ever saw for the likes of Yoda and Kenobi to send Luke after the Emperor were reliance on a prophecy or simple desperation. If they knew that Luke was merely the agent of a prophecy, then sending him after the unstoppable Emperor was completely without risk. If he was their last hope, heck, they might as well make the attempt. But Luke (as of ROTJ) v. Palpatine in a straight-up fight? Come on, let's be serious. Luke would have had his ass handed to him by Darth Maul, never mind Darth Sidious. He just didn't have the skills yet.

Where was this stated or confirmed? SOTE quite clearly states Vader needs the DS to even breath comfortably, let alone still live. Killing the Emperor means Vader rejects the DS, Anakin returns... and lo, dies soon after, because the Force that had been sustaining him is now no longer available.

Really? I didn't know that. This would make even more sense to me...

And really... Luke survives the Emperor's lightning and Vader doesn't, when Vader's the one wearing armour?

True. It could be argued that he was electrically powered and that magnitude of the Emporers electricity going through him was just too devastating to his "pacemaker".

SCRawl wrote:He was defenceless at the moment Palpatine decided to kill him. Luke had pitched away his sabre (rather foolishly, in hindsight), and had no means with which to defend himself.

Except... I dunno... using the Force to deflect the Emperor's attack, which is what he was doing. He just underestimated the Emperor's abilities, which Yoda specifically warned him about.

Besides, Luke's whole plan was to guilt trip daddy to come to his aid. Which was successful. If Luke wanted to merely destroy the emperor he would have flown with Lando and Wedge.

Luke would have had his ass handed to him by Darth Maul, never mind Darth Sidious. He just didn't have the skills yet.

Darth Maul? Are you joking? A mere padawan defeated Maul, just by being cunning.

Justforfun000 wrote:

And really... Luke survives the Emperor's lightning and Vader doesn't, when Vader's the one wearing armour?

True. It could be argued that he was electrically powered and that magnitude of the Emporers electricity going through him was just too devastating to his "pacemaker".

You still have to handwave away Luke's fantastic non-conductive skin though. Literally he was being zapped for a full minute compared to Vader's couple seconds.

Besides, this is SW, a tech level where a glancing hit by a blaster can still leave your cybernetic hand operating (ROTJ), so I don't find it implausible to suggest Vader's armour was well insulated, especially from what could be considered a common Sith attack.

Stofsk wrote: You still have to handwave away Luke's fantastic non-conductive skin though. Literally he was being zapped for a full minute compared to Vader's couple seconds.

Besides, this is SW, a tech level where a glancing hit by a blaster can still leave your cybernetic hand operating (ROTJ), so I don't find it implausible to suggest Vader's armour was well insulated, especially from what could be considered a common Sith attack.

The Emperor was holding back. That's the only good explanation. Dooku zapped Anakin for a much briefer interval and put him down for several minutes. The Emperor was using a non-lethal setting to torture Luke to death as slowly as possible. Then, when Vader picked him up, he must have upped the juice to save his own life. Not that it worked.

So yeah, "power settings" again.

Defenseless? Luke just beat Vader is a lightsabre battle...defenseless is hardly the term I'd apply to that level of power...

He was defenceless at the moment Palpatine decided to kill him. Luke had pitched away his sabre (rather foolishly, in hindsight), and had no means with which to defend himself.

Frankly, the only possible reasons I ever saw for the likes of Yoda and Kenobi to send Luke after the Emperor were reliance on a prophecy or simple desperation. If they knew that Luke was merely the agent of a prophecy, then sending him after the unstoppable Emperor was completely without risk. If he was their last hope, heck, they might as well make the attempt. But Luke (as of ROTJ) v. Palpatine in a straight-up fight? Come on, let's be serious. Luke would have had his ass handed to him by Darth Maul, never mind Darth Sidious. He just didn't have the skills yet.

Actually, according to the ROTJ novelisation, Luke managed to use the Force to block Palpatine's Force Lightning, at least for a couple of blasts. Some of it still got through, but he was able to partially block it until he took too many hits from it. After that, the novelisation states that he could no longer the Force to deflect it. Luke just wasn't strong enough at that point to fight the Emperor.

Eframepilot wrote:

Stofsk wrote:You still have to handwave away Luke's fantastic non-conductive skin though. Literally he was being zapped for a full minute compared to Vader's couple seconds.

Besides, this is SW, a tech level where a glancing hit by a blaster can still leave your cybernetic hand operating (ROTJ), so I don't find it implausible to suggest Vader's armour was well insulated, especially from what could be considered a common Sith attack.

The Emperor was holding back. That's the only good explanation. Dooku zapped Anakin for a much briefer interval and put him down for several minutes.

60 secs = "several minutes"?

Yes, pop in AOTC in your DVD player. It really is that long. Anakin also fought Dooku comfortably for "several minutes" afterwards too.

But he was just a padawan at the time, and Luke was a Jedi Knight during that scene in the Emperor's throne room.

The Emperor was using a non-lethal setting to torture Luke to death as slowly as possible.

Yes... and?

Then, when Vader picked him up, he must have upped the juice to save his own life. Not that it worked.

So yeah, "power settings" again.

Proof? He "must have"? Is it in the ROTJ novelisation somewhere?

Long story short?

The bad guys always seem more powerful so it means more to the movie when Good eventually defeates them

Yes, pop in AOTC in your DVD player. It really is that long. Anakin also fought Dooku comfortably for "several minutes" afterwards too.

But he was just a padawan at the time, and Luke was a Jedi Knight during that scene in the Emperor's throne room.

Anakin was a much more skilled Padawan than Luke was a "Jedi Knight" by that time. You can see it in the way they fought. Leaving aside issues in technique, Anakin did far more impressive things far more often than Luke did.

Proof? He "must have"? Is it in the ROTJ novelisation somewhere?

The ROTJ novelization says that Luke repelled the Emperor's force lightning for a moment or so and then failed. We don't see this in the movie however, but it is possible he was somehow protecting himself from the effects.

As far as Darth Vader (post-suit) goes, however, he is much more vulnerable to force lightning because his limbs are cybernetic, and all the other parts that keep him alive. This is also the reason why he can never use force lightning. See the ROTS:VD. (This is not a spoiler as far as I'm concerned, its not like its in the movie or anything- but its good to be safe).

However, as far as power settings goes- Dooku's force lightning against Yoda was reflected against a stone wall and created an explosion. So I think its reasonable to assume the Emperor may have been using less than that on Luke, and there's no doubt that Sidious was more powerful than Tyranus.

Stofsk wrote: But he was just a padawan at the time, and Luke was a Jedi Knight during that scene in the Emperor's throne room.

Anakin has been in Jedi training for over 6 years. Luke only received a one year crash course, disrupted by "real life".

Proof? He "must have"? Is it in the ROTJ novelisation somewhere?

Look at the amount of damage Palpy did to Vader. His entire skeleton was glowing. Compare this to Luke and Anakin in AOTC. Luke skywalker just writhed on the ground, no visible damage, no hair on fire etc etc etc. There was smoke emerging from Anakin jerkin after Dooku blasted him.

Vympel wrote:Anakin was a much more skilled Padawan than Luke was a "Jedi Knight" by that time. You can see it in the way they fought. Leaving aside issues in technique, Anakin did far more impressive things far more often than Luke did.

No, he didn't. At best they were both equal in terms of abilities shown.

Both Anakin and Luke could do force jumps and acrobatic flips or somersaults. Anakin killed off an entire tribe of ruthless desert warriors; Luke killed off an entire group of ruthless criminals. Anakin tamed a horn beast thing during the arena; Luke killed a RANCOR. Anakin lost his saber not once but twice; Luke lost his saber precisely once, when the hand that was holding it was chopped off. Sorry, but clumsily dropping your saber or having it mashed while on a conveyor belt is just stupid.

However, Luke lasted much longer in his duels with Vader than Anakin did against Tyranus in AOTC; the first time he was holding his own against Vader, the second time he was the one holding back. When Luke finally cut loose Vader was made his bitch. When Anakin got his arm chopped off he couldn't even get up and do anything else, hell neither did Obi-wan, who's injuries were light. What did Luke do when his hand got chopped off? Fell dozens if not hundreds of meters, landed and lived, then hung on to that thing under Bespin for several minutes. The cornfed farmboy has more endurance than Anakin.

Luke's far more impressive untrained than Mr "No, I'm taking him NOW!" ever was. At least at that relative skill level.

Vympel wrote:The ROTJ novelization says that Luke repelled the Emperor's force lightning for a moment or so and then failed. We don't see this in the movie however, but it is possible he was somehow protecting himself from the effects.

We see FL rebounding off Luke in the film. He's still on the floor in a heap though, but there's nothing in the film contradicting the novelisation (unless the novelisation states Luke was standing up at the time he was deflecting the energy, then it would be wrong).

As far as Darth Vader (post-suit) goes, however, he is much more vulnerable to force lightning because his limbs are cybernetic, and all the other parts that keep him alive. This is also the reason why he can never use force lightning. See the ROTS:VD. (This is not a spoiler as far as I'm concerned, its not like its in the movie or anything- but its good to be safe).

Like I said before: cybernetic prosthetics can take a blaster shot and still operate. And Vader copped a few seconds exposure to FL at most, while Luke was being zapped for much longer than that. And it was an assumption that Palpatine automatically 'upped the power' when Vader grabbed him from behind. Palpy was bushwhacked and taken completely by surprise, and a lot of his FL went wild and was undirected anyway.

And I would like to pick up the ROTS VD to confirm, but then it's not available yet, now is it? tsk tsk. *wags finger*

However, as far as power settings goes- Dooku's force lightning against Yoda was reflected against a stone wall and created an explosion. So I think its reasonable to assume the Emperor may have been using less than that on Luke, and there's no doubt that Sidious was more powerful than Tyranus.

Perhaps he was doing a low powered thing to torture Luke, but that doesn't mean Vader caught more than Luke did. Palpatine was taken by surprise, then he got thrown over the railing.

And frankly, why would Vader walk around in a suit that's vulnerable to FL when he knows that he's gonna have to betray the old fool eventually anyway?

PainRack wrote:

Stofsk wrote:But he was just a padawan at the time, and Luke was a Jedi Knight during that scene in the Emperor's throne room.

Anakin has been in Jedi training for over 6 years. Luke only received a one year crash course, disrupted by "real life".

Then Luke is a lot more powerful than Anakin. If he had been trained by the Jedi earlier then holy shit...

Proof? He "must have"? Is it in the ROTJ novelisation somewhere?

Look at the amount of damage Palpy did to Vader. His entire skeleton was glowing. Compare this to Luke and Anakin in AOTC. Luke skywalker just writhed on the ground, no visible damage, no hair on fire etc etc etc. There was smoke emerging from Anakin jerkin after Dooku blasted him.[/quote]
Luke was smoking too. His hair wasn't on fire and he wasn't burnt too, but he was also deflecting some of the Emperor's attack.