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What is everyone's beef with Episode I and II? I happened to enjoy them very much so although I think Ep I was over hyped. Are there unexplainable plot holes or what?

The pacing is just wrong--that's the central criticism. It moves too fast; things happen for reasons which are obtuse or difficult to understand. Episode I, in particular, has a series of events which are obvious plot devices.

Master of Ossus wrote:The pacing is just wrong--that's the central criticism. It moves too fast; things happen for reasons which are obtuse or difficult to understand. Episode I, in particular, has a series of events which are obvious plot devices.

Agreed.

I'd like to add, young Anakin. Okay it was necessary to show how good he was with the Force, even at a young age with no training, but for fracks sake he was annoying.

In terms of the pacing, TTT implyied some really cool political maneouvering by Palpy, unfortunatel the movies present these in broad strokes, and leave the rest to the EU to explain, I would have prefered a little more detail of that in the movies.

Ideally I would have liked TPM to be re-done the most, AotC was cool enough.

I always found they were both fine sci-fi movies in themselves (take a look at what else is out there in terms of tv/movie sci-fi ), but they just couldn’t keep up with the original trilogy, and that’s what seemed to annoy a lot of people, but let’s be honest, nothing can face up to the original trilogy.

Dark Sider wrote:What is everyone's beef with Episode I and II? I happened to enjoy them very much so although I think Ep I was over hyped. Are there unexplainable plot holes or what?

Episode 1 is just boring...

Episode 2 I liked very much, although the love scenes were incredibly contrived, and had the corniest lines and acting I've ever seen.

Praxis wrote:
Episode 1 is just boring...

Episode 2 I liked very much, although the love scenes were incredibly contrived, and had the corniest lines and acting I've ever seen.

Well, Anakin was raised by monks, so it's not too surprising he isn't very smooth in the romance department.

I think a friend put it best about Episode one: "Lucas had decades to create and perfect a story for episode one...and the best he could do was...a race?

The biggest problem I have with the prequels is the incredibly oppressive sense of dullness and lifelessness that emanates from them. Padme is one of the leads, and she may be pretty, but she is one of the most lifeless characters I've ever seen on the screen (and I don't blame Natalie Portman, not at all). She's representative of the problems with the trilogy as a whole, in a way; pretty to look at, but hollow.

For the record I actually really like AoTC despite my problems with it, though I thought TPM really was the festering turd it's been made out to be.

I have two reasons for not liking the prequels in general...

1. I think it was a bad storytelling choice to begin the story with Anakin as a kid. I would have started things out during the middle of the Clone Wars with Anakin "already a great pilot" and Obi-Wan already a Jedi Knight and a general.

2. Once I get past #1 and take the prequels for what they are I find the acting, directing and writing cringeworthy--for which I blame George Lucas since he now has the level of control and the resources to finally show us his undiluted vision of how Star Wars should be.

My main problems are:

Bad acting. Or call it uninspired acting. I think GL limits the actors too much. When you compare the Dooku-Lee with Saruman-Lee, there's a huge difference. They just act as if on auto-pilot sometimes. Hayden Christensen seems to have a grand total of three facial expressions at all...

The romance parts. They were just wrong, on so many levels. I would be hard put to name a film which comes close to the cringe-inducing scenes in AotC between Anakin and Padme.

TPM was just incredibly lifeless. Like a filmed catalogue for Toys'r'Us. "See, you can buy THIS soon in our storey. Yay!"

The fact that GL blatantly steals movie scenes from older movies and gets hailed for it...

Poor plotting, poor directing, abysmal acting. And my major pet peeve, sacrificing the enjoyability for adults in order to pander to kids, especially with idiotic comic relief.

The business with Threepio in the Geonosis arena illustrates my point. Here you have a major tragedy going on, Jedi dying in droves, Windu, Anakin, Obi-Wan and the scattered survivors making their last stand against all odds.

And a completely contrived, stupid, pointless bit of comedy relief with the head switch.

Why? What did it serve in the story? I have yet to see anybody who laughed at that part.

(Although in all fairness, a lot of the downer part of that scene for the people I've watched it with was in watching those stupid hippies jump around and wave their lightsabers like toys.)

Neither Maul or Dooku have had the sheer 'holy fuck' presence of Darth Vader. The first time one watches TESB, that scene where the door opens on Cloud City and Vader is waiting for our heroes is a serious 'they're so screwed' moment, especially after Vader casually absorbs the blaster bolts.

None of the protagonists have charmed us in the way that Harrison Ford as Han Solo did. Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan has come the closest, but he still lacks... something.

I went in to TPM as open-minded as possible, with the goal of just viewing it as a movie and trying to disregard as much as possible the hype and thrill of the return of Star Wars.

And as a movie, frankly, it sucked. AOTC was only better by virtue of no more 'kid saves the day' and less Jar Jar.

I'm with Petro, basically. To add a few points (some of which are propably petty):
1. Visuals.
One of the things I liked about the OT was the 'worn' look. The tech is there, izt has been there for freaking forever, people make their living using it. Of course it looks worn. What do I get in TPM? A bloody shiny aluminum Royal Yyacht (which might actually make sense) and freaking bright yellow starfighters. Hello?
2. Visuals (bear with me).
Want to make a fortune in the SW universe? Invest in companies that make their living by digging really deep holes.
Now don't get me wrong. Really deep holes have been a staple of SW since ANH. The difference being that in the OT, those holes made sense.
In TPM, they did not.
3. Kid Anakin. I'm on record swearing I'd never kill anybody no matter what and I'd murder him.
4. Kid Anakin building C-3PO. Which was contrived like nobody's business and served what purpose, exactly?
5. Midichlorians and Anakin not having a father. The word you're looking for is OHMYGODOHMYGODNONONOAAARGHTHESTUPIDITYITBURNS
MYBRAINISMELTINGMYBRAINISMELTING
or something to that effect.
6. Padme Organa. I mean Amidala. Leia being a moderately skilled fighter/insurgent/whatever made sense. She was, after all, an insurgent. Where and why, pray tell, did Padme pick up those skills?
7. Kid Boba. No comment.
And that's just off the top of my head.

6. Padme Organa. I mean Amidala. Leia being a moderately skilled fighter/insurgent/whatever made sense. She was, after all, an insurgent. Where and why, pray tell, did Padme pick up those skills?

She has decent military training, according to the TPM novelization.

Episode One

The Dialogue:

Anakin - "Are you an angel? My mom says that angels are very beautiful!" To which Natalie Portman acts like she's interested, PEDOPHILE!!

Anakin - "YIPEE!!"

JarJar Binks - Well.. too many to list.

The Ideas:

Pod Race - Cool idea, but why does some kid that can barely see over the dashboard have to win it? I understand trying to show Anakin is very skilled and talented with the force, but that's just forcing it.

Space Battle - Anakin going, 'what does this do?' Then essentially blowing up the command ship saving the war.

JarJar and the Gunguns - Revenge of the Ewoks

Anakin building C3PO and R2D2.

Midichlorians and the virginal birth - Lucas really tried to hard to put "heavy" religious and symbolic metaphors and imagery into this one.

The droid army - Could've been great, but absolutely worthless droids in their behavior and abilities.

AOTC

The love story was just too contrived.

Hayden's really wooden acting.

The dialogue again, "I'll be so powerful no one will die!!"

The Deathstar being designed by funny flying creatures

Funny flying creatures with staffs being a threat to the galaxy

A toaster oven representing the Techno Guild.

C3PO just really jarred a lot of the scenes

When did R2D2 fly?

The Genosis scene with Anakin and Padme in the assembly floor just felt too much like an action game.

Bats, if we ever get together, make a note that we can't have a beer and discuss what's wrong with eps I and II, because we'll be there all week long...

Bats covered some points that I missed. To bring up some others...

Tatooine. Go away from it. It's the world furthest away from the bright center of the universe, in Luke's opinion. That was cool. It shouldn't have come up until Ep III.

The lightsaber fights in Ep II sucked. Quick, lame, not intercut with other scenes as the other fights were to give a sense of duration.

The goddamned intermittent force fields in the Ep 1 fight scene. What the hell were those there for? Oh yeah, plot device so we could separate our heroes. It's like the mashy gear thing from Space Quest all over again.

The forced quality of the character interaction. There's no real chemistry between the actors, and it shows. Harrison Ford and Mark Hamil had an obvious chemistry that let them do the 'good buddies' routine from TESB onward, not to mention Solo's condescending treatment of Luke in ANH. In the prequels, it comes across more like 'Okay, in this scene Obi-Wan and Anakin are bicker. Bicker, people, bicker.'

Here's the kicker to all the complaining. I like the general outline of the stories. It's just the execution that is lacking. The prequels is a case where the EU has done a pretty damned good job of picking up the slack, especially the post-AOTC EU stuff, which has had some excellent stories.

Three words:

Jar Jar Binks



Ideally, Anakin wouldn't have been distracted from starting the engines, and Jar Jar would've been sucked through a turbine tongue first.

that would allow Jar Jar enough screen time for us to still hate him enough to enjoy his demise

When did R2D2 fly?

He didn't really need to at any point during the OT. Or they may have been broken. He should be able to fly, anyway, he was built to repair ships in space.

I'm too tired to give this any more thought right now, so I will concentrate on the acting part. There are many that complains about the acting in the PT, but it wasn't that much better in the OT. Hamill wasn't all that good, and neither was Fisher. What the OT did have was a chemistry that helped to sell the characters, that chemistry is sadly missing in TPM. For example, on his own, Liam Neeson did a very good job portraying Qui-Gon, but together with Ewan McGregor (and especially with Natalie Portman) it didn't work. It's difficult to put into words, but there's something missing.

AOTC dethroned TESB as my favorite SW movie. The chemistry that was lacking in TPM isn't that much needed in this film because of the plot, but at the end it's clear that it's there, which I see is absolutely needed to make Episode III work. The romance was cheesy, but I'm OK with it really. The plot was the most elaborate that had been seen until then in a Star Wars movie and I was blown away by it. In retrospect, there are things that could've been improved, but I'm satisfied as it is.

Trytostaydead wrote:Pod Race - Cool idea, but why does some kid that can barely see over the dashboard have to win it? I understand trying to show Anakin is very skilled and talented with the force, but that's just forcing it.

*cough*Ben Hur*cough*

I am in the minority when I say I think TPM was better than AOTC.

The Phantom Mence was flawed, in many different ways. It was made to be a kids movie, and it gives a very disney feeling in the atmosphere. Some parts are very goofy and cheesey which you have to role your eyes at. It also demystifies alot of the star wars universe. I still do not mind watching it though, its not the best, but it still has likable characters. (Well I think Liam Neesons charsima carried the whole movie.)

Attack of the Clones on the, I do not like any of the main characters, I do not care about any of the main characters. This makes it unwatchable to me, for the simple fact that I do not care what happens to them. I do not feel anything is being threatened. This movie has no rewatch value.

Petrosjko wrote:Tatooine. Go away from it. It's the world furthest away from the bright center of the universe, in Luke's opinion. That was cool. It shouldn't have come up until Ep III.

If at all. Tatooine could have easily been referenced in some "back home" comment by an adult Anakin. Hell, Episode III could have easily ended with Obi-Wan simply telling Yoda that he'd "take the boy to live with Anakin's family."

We don't actually need to see Merlin giving young Arthur to Sir Ector.

The problem with eliminating Tatooine is that you have to eliminate Anakin's mother, too, and her death was obviously an important factor in pushing him to the Dark Side. It doesn't make sense for Anakin to go back to Tatooine to save a character we've never seen and thus have nothing invested it.

Joe wrote:The problem with eliminating Tatooine is that you have to eliminate Anakin's mother, too, and her death was obviously an important factor in pushing him to the Dark Side. It doesn't make sense for Anakin to go back to Tatooine to save a character we've never seen and thus have nothing invested it.

And why, pray tell, does any of this have to happen on Tattooine in the first place?
Simply have them run into Anakin somewhere else in TPM.

See my #1 complaint about the prequels. If Episode I began with Anakin as an adult fighter pilot, there'd be no need to feature his mother (or Tatooine) in the story.

Well, that would not work. Would the OT have worked if it started on Hoth? There needed to be some kind of origin to bring Anakin into the story, rather than just starting his story midway through the development of his character. I agree that it was executed terribly, but that aspect of the story was indeed necessary.