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Disclaimer:
1)Pardon my ignorance as I do not read SW EU.
2)Contains spoilers for Clone Wars cartoon
3)PLEASE NO SPOILERS from ep III. Many thanks...

After watching Clone Wars cartoon chapters 21 to 25, some questions emerged. Most notably it was the Jedi vs Droid issue, where the trend is moving towards the impression that droids can hold their own against the Jedi. Also, there seems to be a great disparity in jedi power strength in the cartoons vs the movie.

1)Gen Grevious's droid lackeys, the droids that were wielding that double-bladed energy staff (for lack of proper description). Were those droids mass produced in large quantities? They seem to be able to hold their own against the typical Jedi Knight, like Shakti and the other 2 Jedis that were saving Palpatine. If so, are the Jedi knights reduce to MERE weaklings that can be bested by these droids?

2)Gen Grevious dueling skills vs the standard Jedi knight(s) is as impressive as it can be. Ok, l learnt that he's somekind of unique cyborg but he is technically not a sith. So I guess his cybernetic/robotic augments leads to increase agility and coordination in his attacks. His extra two arms and ability to use his feets to wield saber also makes him a worthy duelist. Ok plus he can be really intimidating, especially with FOUR sabers drawn. But LUCKILY, Windu kicked his ass by dealing him a severe force blow in the last few minutes of the show. Also, we know that Grevious is no match for Dooku, evident by the sparring match earlier on. That puts Grevious stronger than most Jedi, save the uber Jedi masters. All things considered, you think Grevious(a cybernetic non-sith) power is justified?

3)It seems that the SW universe tech on robotics and cybernetics can easily lead to the creation of droids/cyborgs that can easily beat the standard Jedi Knight. SO why do we have old stiff neck Vader in the OT? How do we JUSTIFY VADER's existence? Why wasnt he fitted with better augments like grevious?

4)Jedi Power Strength. In the cartoon, we can see that Jedi(or at least the uber masters like Yoda and Windu) can really kick the crap out of normal droids. Acts of their uber power include:
a. Yoda lifting up couple dozens (maybe hundreds?) of droidekas in mid air and allowing them to collide with the enemy droid starfighters. He also used the force to cause the trade fed landing ships to collide into each other.
b. Windu "force kung fu" moves. WTF? Hand to hand combat with droids and he broke the droids into pieces no less!
c. Yoda and Windu uber force push against the droid army, where they both literally BLEW the droids back.
SO, why is it that the Jedi in AOTC were so FUCKING weak? I mean Windu was there, why didnt he exhibit the powers he used in Clone Wars cartoon?


Comments anyone?

Darth Vader has full human mobility. His immobility is a hallucination of George Lucas.

NecronLord wrote:Darth Vader has full human mobility. His immobility is a hallucination of George Lucas.

Of course the easy way out to explain is because Lucas did not have the technology needed to create a running, jumping, somersaulting Vader back in the 1970s to 1980s.

But can it be explained in any way using SW context?

Mace and Yoda are the two most powerful Jedi, they can do stuff, IMHO, that other Jedi would find impossible. Either experience or natural tallent, who knows.

The Jedi arent weak, but compared to Mace/Yoda they were. Like compared to a Challenger tank a Sherman tank is 'weak'...but either could take my house apart in a second.

Also those droids were probably programed with Jedi fighting techniques that they could use, and even still none of them actually killed any Jedi. In many ways they failed to do what they were designed to. Grevious didnt, but his guard droids werent as impressive as they seem. Shakti fought dozens and survived for SEVERAL minuets, way, way outnumbered. She should've been killed, overwhelmed, but instead she easily held her own. At best they were equal to the Jedi is speed and reflexes, but not skill.

As for Vader, i presume he was more gravely damaged than Grevious. Perhaps he suffered massive nerve damage that couldnt be repaired?

Anyway, just my two cents i may be wrong.

Rommie2006 wrote:Of course the easy way out to explain is because Lucas did not have the technology needed to create a running, jumping, somersaulting Vader back in the 1970s to 1980s.

But can it be explained in any way using SW context?

Yes. He is being sensible.

Flourishing lightsaber moves get you killed this was shown in AotC, and is simply logical. Darth Vader's combat techniques are superior to those of the Jedi. Force aside, using his techniques would be far better for your safety. Using the force, Vader can simply smash up any jedi opponent who decides to fight him.

There is no reason to assume that he can't jump as high and run as fast as any other jedi.

NecronLord wrote:

Rommie2006 wrote:Of course the easy way out to explain is because Lucas did not have the technology needed to create a running, jumping, somersaulting Vader back in the 1970s to 1980s.

But can it be explained in any way using SW context?

Yes. He is being sensible.

Flourishing lightsaber moves get you killed this was shown in AotC, and is simply logical. Darth Vader's combat techniques are superior to those of the Jedi. Force aside, using his techniques would be far better for your safety. Using the force, Vader can simply smash up any jedi opponent who decides to fight him.

There is no reason to assume that he can't jump as high and run as fast as any other jedi.

Possibly. There is some sense in your reasoning. However, Vader is seriously stiff and lacking in agility/reflexes of any normal Old Republic Jedi.
When TPM came out, there was an analysis done on the lightsaber techniques used by QuiGon, ObiWan, Maul, Vader & Luke. The conclusion was that Vader would be chopped into pieces by any Old Republic Jedi Knight.
And as to why so many Jedi were killed in AOTC, I believe it was partially explained as most of them were using Form 6 stance, the diplomat's saber style that was highly ceremonial and weak in everything else. If the Jedi were all form 3 trained, I doubt the battle would have been won so easily by the droids.

If i may, i think he means why cant Vader do stuff like Greveous. Like have eight sabers, run fast enough to run across walls, stuff you'd expect a cyborg super warrior to pull off.

I mean c'mon, Vader was stiffer than some dead people i can name compared to Grevious.

Yeah he has the Force, but so did like the five Jedi Greveous took out.

Rommie2006 wrote: Possibly. There is some sense in your reasoning. However, Vader is seriously stiff and lacking in agility/reflexes of any normal Old Republic Jedi.
When TPM came out, there was an analysis done on the lightsaber techniques used by QuiGon, ObiWan, Maul, Vader & Luke. The conclusion was that Vader would be chopped into pieces by any Old Republic Jedi Knight.

No. Without the force, those guys would trip over and stab themselves - You know how many takes and weeks of practice it takes to get those duels right? You think they have that in universe? A large part of those battles is in the force. They are garunteed to loose that part. At which point his RL-superior combat skills would result in their slaughter, as he would be able to deprive them of the force crutch they lean on.

And as to why so many Jedi were killed in AOTC, I believe it was partially explained as most of them were using Form 6 stance, the diplomat's saber style that was highly ceremonial and weak in everything else. If the Jedi were all form 3 trained, I doubt the battle would have been won so easily by the droids.

Err. Right. And? So? If they were all Yodas, they might even have been able to hold their own. The thing is, they weren't.

Vader infact is less Damaged then Grievous (most Anakin's body is still there (ROTJ), but Grievous has head plus some internal organs) and a (dark) Jedi. Plus there's no befit for Vader to fight like Grievous in the OT (as the few tiimes there's room to move like Grievous the opponent is Luke who frankly needs a lot more training in saber combat).

IG-100 Magnaguards are fast take a lot of punishment, but can really defeat Jedi in one to one situation.

Grievous is 1,90 m (in his default configuration) tall droid with an Organic control unit also Dooku told Grievous to attack so fast that Grievous would break his consentration (so basically any could do that stunt to grievous if given time to consentrate)

as for Mace and Yoda they're two most powerfull ever in the order so they could thing would seem impossible to other Jedi.

On an other note Grievous is too tall (if SW.com stats are correct) relative to Dooku (Dooku is 193 cm and Grievous c. 190 cm (in default configuration).

18-Till-I-Die wrote:If i may, i think he means why cant Vader do stuff like Greveous. Like have eight sabers, run fast enough to run across walls, stuff you'd expect a cyborg super warrior to pull off.

I mean c'mon, Vader was stiffer than some dead people i can name compared to Grevious.

Yeah he has the Force, but so did like the five Jedi Greveous took out.

Grevious is rediculously wanked. Just wait 'til you read the Ep 3 novellisation. Spoiler: Fighter grade laser cannon to the head? Not a problem.Vader doesn't do all that stuff because he doesn't need to. You will note that the only time we see Vader in a real fight he is fighting the most powerful Jedi to ever live who is at that time in a beserk dark side fury.

The conditions Vader is fighting in need to be taken into account.

ANH, vs Obi-Wan: It was a test of will, not of saber technique. Obi-Wan held back because his intent was merely to buy time for his escaping comrades. He had no intention of escape. Vader was probably confused by his lack of effort and as such was probably holding back himself to see what Obi-Wan intended to pull.

ESB, vs Luke: Vader's intention was not to kill Luke, but only to disable and capture him. Most of the duel shows Vader in complete control, often using only one hand to do battle compared to Luke's two-handed power grip.

ROJ, vs Luke: Vader's intent the whole time is to get Luke angry and turn him to the dark side. It's never to kill him.

NecronLord wrote:

Rommie2006 wrote:

Possibly. There is some sense in your reasoning. However, Vader is seriously stiff and lacking in agility/reflexes of any normal Old Republic Jedi.
When TPM came out, there was an analysis done on the lightsaber techniques used by QuiGon, ObiWan, Maul, Vader & Luke. The conclusion was that Vader would be chopped into pieces by any Old Republic Jedi Knight.

No. Without the force, those guys would trip over and stab themselves - You know how many takes and weeks of practice it takes to get those duels right? You think they have that in universe? A large part of those battles is in the force. They are garunteed to loose that part. At which point his RL-superior combat skills would result in their slaughter, as he would be able to deprive them of the force crutch they lean on.

Think again. Grevious is not a jedi/sith. He's not force sensitive. Yet he's wielding quadruple sabers!!!

And as to why so many Jedi were killed in AOTC, I believe it was partially explained as most of them were using Form 6 stance, the diplomat's saber style that was highly ceremonial and weak in everything else. If the Jedi were all form 3 trained, I doubt the battle would have been won so easily by the droids.

Err. Right. And? So? If they were all Yodas, they might even have been able to hold their own. The thing is, they weren't.

Ok whtever, tat's besides the pt.

Rommie2006 wrote:1)Gen Grevious's droid lackeys, the droids that were wielding that double-bladed energy staff (for lack of proper description). Were those droids mass produced in large quantities? They seem to be able to hold their own against the typical Jedi Knight, like Shakti and the other 2 Jedis that were saving Palpatine. If so, are the Jedi knights reduce to MERE weaklings that can be bested by these droids?

Those droids can't be mass produced in large quantities. They're Grevious' special fuck buddies.

As for Grevious himself, I think EU mentioned something about him getting a blood transfusion from Sifo Diyas.

In Vader's case, the movies depict him moving like any normal human. He doesn't need to do the flashy shit Jedi are seen doing in the PT, in fact, if you try and pull that shit in real life while fencing against a master fencer (who would move more like Vader, heck, the guy who was under the suit in the OT fight scenes was a pro fencer, IIRC) you'd end up dead fast.

SO, why is it that the Jedi in AOTC were so FUCKING weak? I mean Windu was there, why didnt he exhibit the powers he used in Clone Wars cartoon?

Well, to have Mace do in AOTC what he did in Clone Wars would require a lot of wire fu.

Also, Dooku was there. So you could say that the Jedi were also fighting Dooku, as he was hampering their Force powers and they were trying to use their Force powers. Meh.

3)It seems that the SW universe tech on robotics and cybernetics can easily lead to the creation of droids/cyborgs that can easily beat the standard Jedi Knight. SO why do we have old stiff neck Vader in the OT? How do we JUSTIFY VADER's existence? Why wasnt he fitted with better augments like grevious?

You don't need to pull fancy shit to be an uber Jedi. Do you see Dooku doing fancy somersaults and shit? No. Do you see Dooku pwn Grevious? Yes.

b. Windu "force kung fu" moves. WTF? Hand to hand combat with droids and he broke the droids into pieces no less!

Think of it as an extremely concentrated point blank Force push.

NecronLord wrote:

18-Till-I-Die wrote:If i may, i think he means why cant Vader do stuff like Greveous. Like have eight sabers, run fast enough to run across walls, stuff you'd expect a cyborg super warrior to pull off.

I mean c'mon, Vader was stiffer than some dead people i can name compared to Grevious.

Yeah he has the Force, but so did like the five Jedi Greveous took out.

Grevious is rediculously wanked. Just wait 'til you read the Ep 3 novellisation. Spoiler: Fighter grade laser cannon to the head? Not a problem.Vader doesn't do all that stuff because he doesn't need to. You will note that the only time we see Vader in a real fight he is fighting the most powerful Jedi to ever live who is at that time in a beserk dark side fury.

Luke the most powerful Jedi ever? LOL. He's an untrained kid. Any Jedi Knight in the Old Republic could have take him on... Oh please.

But it's nice to know that Grevious is ridiculousy wanked. I hope some Jedi just trash him bad and fuck his ass upside down in ROTS. That'll make my day

NecronLord wrote:

18-Till-I-Die wrote:If i may, i think he means why cant Vader do stuff like Greveous. Like have eight sabers, run fast enough to run across walls, stuff you'd expect a cyborg super warrior to pull off.

I mean c'mon, Vader was stiffer than some dead people i can name compared to Grevious.

Yeah he has the Force, but so did like the five Jedi Greveous took out.

Grevious is rediculously wanked. Just wait 'til you read the Ep 3 novellisation. Spoiler: Fighter grade laser cannon to the head? Not a problem.Vader doesn't do all that stuff because he doesn't need to. You will note that the only time we see Vader in a real fight he is fighting the most powerful Jedi to ever live who is at that time in a beserk dark side fury.

When? You mean Palpy?

He picked up Palpatine and crushed his spine or something, as i understand it, and threw him over into that tube thing in like two seconds. He would've survived if not for his resperator being damaged by the Force lightning, again as i understand it.

Luke may have been a powerful Jedi later, and may indeed have been pound for mound more powerful, but he was vastly inexperienced: he was not a good swordsman nor was he well versed in the force at the time. He was no Mace, certainly no Yoda.

Rommie2006 wrote: Think again. Grevious is not a jedi/sith. He's not force sensitive. Yet he's wielding quadruple sabers!!!

So? You just have his limbs programmed to be unable to cut himself with them. Problem solved. With the Shroud of the Dark Side in effect, I could take out a jedi given the advantages Grevious has.

He is faster and stronger than they are, more focussed, and better armed and armoured. The only thing they have going for them is the ability to attack with the force, and he has been taught how to prevent them using it when he fights them. Not seeing a problem here.

McC wrote:The conditions Vader is fighting in need to be taken into account.

ANH, vs Obi-Wan: It was a test of will, not of saber technique. Obi-Wan held back because his intent was merely to buy time for his escaping comrades. He had no intention of escape. Vader was probably confused by his lack of effort and as such was probably holding back himself to see what Obi-Wan intended to pull.

ESB, vs Luke: Vader's intention was not to kill Luke, but only to disable and capture him. Most of the duel shows Vader in complete control, often using only one hand to do battle compared to Luke's two-handed power grip.

ROJ, vs Luke: Vader's intent the whole time is to get Luke angry and turn him to the dark side. It's never to kill him.

I agree. But somehow I feel that it is over "rationalising" Vader's stiff style in saber fighting.

Rommie2006 wrote:Luke the most powerful Jedi ever? LOL. He's an untrained kid. Any Jedi Knight in the Old Republic could have take him on... Oh please.

Raw power != trained ability.

"lolz wtf n00b ur st00pid"

Don't be a retard.

Rommie2006 wrote:Think again. Grevious is not a jedi/sith. He's not force sensitive. Yet he's wielding quadruple sabers!!!

it's all to do with reaction speed and control, most Organics don't have the ability to control the saber blace and have time to react to attacks. Grievous has computer enhanced reactions and cordination. (using droids as practice opponents for lightsaber duels is not unheard of.)

Err. You people are forgetting, Luke Skywalker could take on and defeat both Vader and the Emperor at the same time if properly trained. He is more than a match for any Jedi ever to live in terms of raw power. Thus, he is the most powerful jedi ever. Get it?

Rommie2006 wrote:I agree. But somehow I feel that it is over "rationalising" Vader's stiff style in saber fighting.

Uh...you asked for an in-universe explanation. I gave you one, and one that happens to fit the facts rather accurately. It's called Suspension of Disbelief -- we accept what we see on screen as accurate and true so as to be able to make an assessment of it. Learn it, love it.

NecronLord wrote:Err. You people are forgetting, Luke Skywalker could take on and defeat both Vader and the Emperor at the same time if properly trained. He is more than a match for any Jedi ever to live in terms of raw power. Thus, he is the most powerful jedi ever. Get it?

Emphasis added. Which "people"? I think it's only Rommie saying that Luke isn't powerful.

(Posted because I got paranoid that my previous post about Raw power != trained ability, which is another way of saying exactly what Necron said, might have been misinterpreted)

Also for Luke, it took him a few moments of exposure to begin to learn how to deflect force lightning. Just because he's a pissant bitch, doesn't mean he's not incredibly adept at using the force.

McC wrote:Emphasis added. Which "people"? I think it's only Rommie saying that Luke isn't powerful.

18 and Rommie.

NecronLord wrote:

Rommie2006 wrote: Think again. Grevious is not a jedi/sith. He's not force sensitive. Yet he's wielding quadruple sabers!!!

So? You just have his limbs programmed to be unable to cut himself with them. Problem solved. With the Shroud of the Dark Side in effect, I could take out a jedi given the advantages Grevious has.

He is faster and stronger than they are, more focussed, and better armed and armoured. The only thing they have going for them is the ability to attack with the force, and he has been taught how to prevent them using it when he fights them. Not seeing a problem here.

Which was precisely what I am getting too. It now seems that with the Clone wars cartoon, Jedi uber-ness can be replicated and copied in the form of droids/cyborgs (and maybe possibly manufactured on a large scale). Which kinds of goes against what Star Wars has built around the Jedi knights as uber, near invincible warriors that can only be bested by another Jedi or by SHEER (and I do mean sheer) outnumbering enemy forces.