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In the ESB, when we are first introduced to the Emperor, Vader suggests turning Luke to the dark side instead of killing him, on account of the boys potential strength and power as a Jedi being , 'a vital asset'. The Emperor of course, as we know, accepts this course of action, and from this point on, Vaders mission is to goad Luke into submitting himself to the Emperor's power.

Now, doesnt it strike anyone as odd that Vader would be willing to reccomend such a course of action in the first place? The unwritten rule of the Sith has it - that there may be only 'two' Sith at a time, a Master (in this case Sidious) and an Apprentice, to carry out the biddings (Vader).

So why was it that Vader thought he could offer Luke up as a possible apprentice to Sidious? The only way it could have been made possible would be to have Vader diminished from his Sith status, in which case, Vader was actively willing to be removed from his apprentice position. Killed? Sacrificed in favour of Luke? This certainly makes the noises of someone wanting to escape his pledge to Sith power and authority.

This also begs the question, was Sidious aware that Vader was willing to replace himself, and would Sidious have allowed this in the first place? Why was it that Vader stayed by the Emperors side all the way to the end, if in his very own mind and through his own decision, he wanted to leave the control of his Master.

Listen to the dialog later. When Vader reveals his identity to Luke, he says, "You can kill the Emperor. He has foreseen this...Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

The way I see it, the two Sith rule still applies. The way Vader wanted it, he and Luke join up, kill Palpatine, and then Vader becomes the master and Luke becomes the apprentice. The only reason Vader did press this matter with Luke again in ROTJ was because Luke wholeheartedly rejected Vader's offer and Vader decided pursuing it was a lost cause (either that or he was still trying to recruit Luke with the intention of having the two of them turn on Palpatine).

Really, I dont remember that being said?

But you see, Sidious was a Sith Master, capable of precognitive power far beyond Vaders, and so wouldnt he have realised the plan of action in Vaders mind and plotted a course of action to counter it?

There are limits to Palpatine's precognition. He didn't seem to foresee Vader throwing him down that shaft.

CivilWarMan wrote:Listen to the dialog later. When Vader reveals his identity to Luke, he says, "You can kill the Emperor. He has foreseen this...Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

The way I see it, the two Sith rule still applies. The way Vader wanted it, he and Luke join up, kill Palpatine, and then Vader becomes the master and Luke becomes the apprentice. The only reason Vader did press this matter with Luke again in ROTJ was because Luke wholeheartedly rejected Vader's offer and Vader decided pursuing it was a lost cause (either that or he was still trying to recruit Luke with the intention of having the two of them turn on Palpatine).

If Vader had really have wanted that all he had to do was let Luke kill the Emperor in the Death Stars throne room. Luke would have gave into his anger and Vader would be the Master. But he didn't, he blocked Luke's swing.

Lord Pounder wrote:If Vader had really have wanted that all he had to do was let Luke kill the Emperor in the Death Stars throne room. Luke would have gave into his anger and Vader would be the Master. But he didn't, he blocked Luke's swing.

Which suggests a few possible things (lot of speculation):
1) As I said earlier, Vader gave up trying to recruit Luke because of his refusal to turn earlier.
2) Luke killing Palpatine might not necessarily have made Luke the apprentice. Had he done so, he may have immediately turned on Vader, deciding that he should be the master himself.
3) Being in the presence of Palpatine overwhelmed Vader's will, and it took the Force lightning scene for Vader's willpower to overcome Palpatine's power.
4) EU states that a lot of the Imperial military cohesion (particularly at the Battle for Endor) was due to Palpatine's influence. Letting the Emperor die there might have screwed up the whole thing earlier. No good having an apprentice if you get blown up afterwards. Let the Rebellion get crushed, then perform the coup (Palpatine's guard may be down then, anyway).

Both Vader and Palpatine want to turn Luke to the Dark Side. Palpie wants to turn Luke and kill Vader, Vader wants Luke to turn and kill Palpie.

IMO Palpie knows that Vader is going to try and betray him (it is the Sith way after all), he wants to get rid of Vader, and at the same time have an able bodied replacement to take Vader's place.

Darth Vader had already betrayed Bane's order and trained a supernumary bastard Sith, Lady Lumiya.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Darth Vader had already betrayed Bane's order and trained a supernumary bastard Sith, Lady Lumiya.

Who seems to have dissappeared not long after she completed her training. . .

Does Vader know the "only 2" rule?

The Guid wrote:Does Vader know the "only 2" rule?

Most likely

Regardless of what anyone was "planning" to do (double-cross or whatever), the OP has a very good point: if you come to your master, and tell him you can recruit another guy, and there can only be TWO, this sends the *very* obvious message that "if we manage to recruit him, one of us has to go".

I'm just throughing this out there, but could it be possible that yes they wanted Luke to join the dark side, but not necessarily become a Sith? I mean their is a difference between simply following the dark side of the force, and being a member of the Sith right? That way Palpy gets to lackys working for him without breaking the Sith rule and then after a while, replace the old dog Vader, with new puppy Darth Farmboy. Then again now that I think about it, the Jedi new about this two Sith rule, but the Sith had been thought to have been gone for a thousand years right? So what if after all that time Sideous would have thought "To hell with that rule" and decided to take on another apprentice when the one you have is already pretty adept in the skills? I mean I'm sure if Maul had escaped beeing offed by Obi after stickin QuiGon, and Anikin still sticking to the path the he followed, Sideous would have loved to have both of them working for him. Would he really take the chance of offinf and experinced Sith on the chance that this new guy would be better apprentice?

Freeman's Trigger-Finger wrote:So why was it that Vader thought he could offer Luke up as a possible apprentice to Sidious? The only way it could have been made possible would be to have Vader diminished from his Sith status, in which case, Vader was actively willing to be removed from his apprentice position. Killed? Sacrificed in favour of Luke? This certainly makes the noises of someone wanting to escape his pledge to Sith power and authority.

Well, I'm making a bet that because the Jedi order has now been eliminated, the old Sith regulations flew out the window. According to the EU both Palpatine and Vader trained many able apprentices, non stronger than themselves. I don't think Vader meant anything at all about Luke taking up his own place as the Emperor's right hand man, although I'm fairly certain that Vader did understand the implications of what the Emperor was thinking at the time (he is an autocrat after all) and thus set off a quiet chain of events between himself and the Emperor.

This also begs the question, was Sidious aware that Vader was willing to replace himself, and would Sidious have allowed this in the first place?

As said previously, I hardly believe Vader recommended himself to be put in a position where his power would be superceeded by another, even if it were his own son. Doing so would be far too suspicious in front of the eyes of the Emperor, since the Emperor knows that Vader is already quite a power-hungry murderer such as himself. Requesting such an illogical fact would raise the Emperor's suspicion up another notch than Vader's prior offer about his son, because it would immediately demonstrate to the Emperor that Vader's thinking has been far too deeply affected by his son to be reliable anymore. Indeed, I seem to recall that Vader offered to the Emperor that Luke could "join" them, not surpass one or the other.

Merely Luke was more likely to be trained as a second rate acquaintance to aid the legacy of the Sith as Vader's offer would have it, but nevertheless Sidious must have known at heart what Vader was truly intending to accomplish (he evidently wouldn't be in such a position if he hadn't thought in similar modes before).

Also, in Timothy Zahn's Thrawn duology, a vision occurs to Luke where Mara Jade executed him at issue of His Majesty--because of Vader's already high interest beleaguering him with worries about betrayal.

Why was it that Vader stayed by the Emperors side all the way to the end, if in his very own mind and through his own decision, he wanted to leave the control of his Master.

The most likely answer would probably be that Emperor Palpatine did not instruct Vader in all the ways of the dark side of the Force, and Vader needed his master's further mystical knowledge to assisst him in ruling the Galaxy, just as the ROTJ novelization establishes. This is simply His Imperial Majesty's own manner of restricting the power of his subjects who are a rung below himself, in the case that one of them may rebel against his authority.

Lord Pounder wrote:

CivilWarMan wrote:Listen to the dialog later. When Vader reveals his identity to Luke, he says, "You can kill the Emperor. He has foreseen this...Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

The way I see it, the two Sith rule still applies. The way Vader wanted it, he and Luke join up, kill Palpatine, and then Vader becomes the master and Luke becomes the apprentice. The only reason Vader did press this matter with Luke again in ROTJ was because Luke wholeheartedly rejected Vader's offer and Vader decided pursuing it was a lost cause (either that or he was still trying to recruit Luke with the intention of having the two of them turn on Palpatine).

If Vader had really have wanted that all he had to do was let Luke kill the Emperor in the Death Stars throne room. Luke would have gave into his anger and Vader would be the Master. But he didn't, he blocked Luke's swing.

Well, according to the ROTJ novelisation:

Darth Vader's thoughts wrote:It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.

As for the Rule of Two - the main reason for it, IIRC, was to ensure that the Sith could not be destroyed by infighting; so long as there were only two, the strongest would be victorious in any battle between them, but if there were more, then the two weaker Sith might gang up on the stronger and topple him or her, to the detriment of the Sith.

As for the Rule of Two - the main reason for it, IIRC, was to ensure that the Sith could not be destroyed by infighting; so long as there were only two, the strongest would be victorious in any battle between them, but if there were more, then the two weaker Sith might gang up on the stronger and topple him or her, to the detriment of the Sith.

It was also so that the Jedi wouldn't notice the Sith. Before Palpy and Anakin came along, the Jedi were more than powerful enough to wipe out anything the Sith could throw at them. After getting their butts kicked in at least three wars, the Sith decided to assume a low profile. Darth Bane realized that the only was the Sith could win would be to wait for a time when the Jedi wouldn't be as powerful. With no Jedi, the "only two" rule is meaningless.

Freeman's Trigger-Finger wrote:But you see, Sidious was a Sith Master, capable of precognitive power far beyond Vaders, and so wouldnt he have realised the plan of action in Vaders mind and plotted a course of action to counter it?

Always in motion the future is.

Force precog is so very overrrated. Palpatine could not see his doom approaching now could he?

Lord Pounder wrote:

CivilWarMan wrote:Listen to the dialog later. When Vader reveals his identity to Luke, he says, "You can kill the Emperor. He has foreseen this...Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

The way I see it, the two Sith rule still applies. The way Vader wanted it, he and Luke join up, kill Palpatine, and then Vader becomes the master and Luke becomes the apprentice. The only reason Vader did press this matter with Luke again in ROTJ was because Luke wholeheartedly rejected Vader's offer and Vader decided pursuing it was a lost cause (either that or he was still trying to recruit Luke with the intention of having the two of them turn on Palpatine).

If Vader had really have wanted that all he had to do was let Luke kill the Emperor in the Death Stars throne room. Luke would have gave into his anger and Vader would be the Master. But he didn't, he blocked Luke's swing.

I believe that according to the ROTJ novelization, Vader didn't want Luke to turn too early.

Necrolord wrote:

Force precog is so very overrrated. Palpatine could not see his doom approaching now could he?

Not true, in Dark Empire the Emperor states that he had foreseen the possibility of his own death. As he tell Luke later, "It was not the first time I've died, nor shall it be the last". Actually he was open to any of the big three living or dying. The point is that he new he could die he simply did not care. He had the ultimate "do over" trump card.

I think the Sith only two rule still allows for other Sith. They are considered Dark Jedi, and are just enforcers of the head Sith's will. The Jedi have pawadan, Knights, Masters and then the Council. The Sith Lords have a Master and Apprentice, and any number Dark Jedi running around to do there bidding. Treachery is a big component to the Sith, so it behooves the top two to keep an eye on the underlings. This explanation allows for a Sith Acadamy in KOTOR, and why the Emperor wanted to recruit Luke and have Mara Jade. With Luke, the Emperor couldn't lose. Either Luke whacked Vader and Luke is the new apprentice, or he gets turned by Vader, becomes a Dark Jedi and does their bidding and if he plays his cards right ends up killing Vader later.

Palpatine actually doesn't have any qualms about breaking the vaunted "Rule of Two." He's the Emperor, so why should he? In addition to himself and Vader, he had a whole slew of Sith enforcers.

^ Evidence his Hands where any more than half trained Dark Jedi?

I'm not referring to his hands, specifically. There were a bunch of others, like Jerec, Tremayne, Lumiya, Sedriss, Jeng Droga, and even Sate Pestage. All Sith practitioners of some degree.

Actually if you go by the role playing games and Dark Empire their are tons of dark siders. Most of them are not fully trained though. Such as: Sovereign Protectors, Inquisitors, Sith Mages, Sith Acolytes, Hands, etc. However their are also a fair number of fallen OR Jedi such as Jerec, and Seraris, and even Dark Jedi masters like Cyboath. The games state that many Jedi converted to the darkside.

That said most of them are mooks, as even Sedriss, Palp's hand picked replacement for Vader was easily punked by Luke. Hell at least Maul took out a Old school Jedi Master. The other Darksiders with Sedriss were nothing to right home about as they, got taken out by Luke's half trained student (most of which didn't rate even old school padawan, or even youngling-level.

Palps always kept his underlings weak. Vader was and exception as he was already more powerful than most of the old school jedi council. It seems to be a pattern with the Sith to withold knowledge. As even:

Spoiler:

Even Sidious' master did not teach him all he knew. Palpatine had to learn on his own years later how to preserve his life after death. Ref: the ROTS novelization, grapic novel, & script.

What I'm curious about is how the Emperor planned to proceed with the training. I believe in the novelization it says that both Luke and Vader see the Emperor, and both realize that he is afraid of Luke; I think Vader is even thinking that Luke should not be trained by a "frightened old man."