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During The Clone Wars Ki-Adi-Mundi, a Jedi Master, battles Grievous to about a standstill. But at the later Grievous was shown to be unable to defeat Count Dooku, who was defeated by Yoda.

I was under the impression that the most powerful Jedi would make up the Council, but it seems like Mace Windu, who defeats an entire droid army single-handedly, and Yoda are somehow more powerful than other Jedi Masters. Does anyone else notice that?

And, slightly off topic, but could Qui-Gon Jinn defeat Grievous?

Crom wrote: I was under the impression that the most powerful Jedi would make up the Council,

I always thoguht it would be most wise and experienced.

It is. Anakin is repeatedly stated to be one of hte most powerful jedi ever and the council consistantly refuses to admit him.

Yoda and Mace are exceptional. However, there's politics involved in getting into the Council. In TPM, it was said that Qui-Gon would be on the Council if he wasn't always pissing them off. While Anakin has the most talent and potential, he's still inexperienced and not fully trained. After all, Obi-Wan will beat him in ROTS.

BTW, did Ki-Adi-Mundi ever even become a Master?

In another exception to the traditions of the Jedi, Ki-Adi-Mundi was the sole Jedi Knight serving on the Council during the start of his tenure, sitting amongst an assemblage of Jedi Masters.

I read through his databank entry, and I don't ever see it being stated that he was promoted to the rank of Master.

SylasGaunt wrote:It is. Anakin is repeatedly stated to be one of hte most powerful jedi ever and the council consistantly refuses to admit him.

I thought they refused to admit him because they don't trust him and the way he acts, not on any basis of his experience.

I know Qui-Gon was rejected from the council and he was their best duelist, IIRC, but Ki-Adi-Mundi is shown to be less adept than either Mace Windu or Yoda.

Coleman Trebor was a Jedi Master on the Council that was taken out by Jango Fett.

I guess I'm just surprised how varied the power level of the Jedi Council is. Which is why I have to ask, are Mace Windu and Yoda unique among the Jedi? I'd been assuming all this time that they, and Obi-Wan, were the standard.

Jim Raynor wrote:Yoda and Mace are exceptional. However, there's politics involved in getting into the Council. In TPM, it was said that Qui-Gon would be on the Council if he wasn't always pissing them off. While Anakin has the most talent and potential, he's still inexperienced and not fully trained. After all, Obi-Wan will beat him in ROTS.

BTW, did Ki-Adi-Mundi ever even become a Master?

In another exception to the traditions of the Jedi, Ki-Adi-Mundi was the sole Jedi Knight serving on the Council during the start of his tenure, sitting amongst an assemblage of Jedi Masters.

I read through his databank entry, and I don't ever see it being stated that he was promoted to the rank of Master.

Oh, I just assumed because he was on the Council that he was a Master. Shaak Ti, a Jedi Master on the Council, did perform a lot better against Grievous than Ki-Adi-Mundi, but was still defeated. But that does help clears things up a little, thanks.

Which is why I have to ask, are Mace Windu and Yoda unique among the Jedi? I'd been assuming all this time that they, and Obi-Wan, were the standard.

Weren't Yoda and Mace used as standards of wisdom and power in some line in AOTC?

Also, Mace Windu's databank entry had this to say about him:

In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku. Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the his Form VII discipline of combat -- the deadly technique known as vaapad -- for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.

Jim Raynor wrote:

Which is why I have to ask, are Mace Windu and Yoda unique among the Jedi? I'd been assuming all this time that they, and Obi-Wan, were the standard.

Weren't Yoda and Mace used as standards of wisdom and power in some line in AOTC?

Also, Mace Windu's databank entry had this to say about him:

In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku. Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the his Form VII discipline of combat -- the deadly technique known as vaapad -- for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.

See, I always knew that Mace and Yoda represented the higher-end Jedi, but while watching The Clone Wars it seemed kind of ridiculous how much above normal Jedi they were.

Mace Windu, the best lightsaber fighter, crushes an entire droid army practically without a lightsaber. Another Jedi, admittedly a Padawan, get's stepped on by Grievous and dies.

Who would be a better Jedi to judge the rest by? Obi-Wan?

Crom wrote:Who would be a better Jedi to judge the rest by? Obi-Wan?

No, Obi-Wan is the Mack-Daddy of Star Wars (TM)*



*Trademarked and registered by Stravo, used entirely without permission.

Vympel wrote:Considering that Mace and Yoda are the only two Jedi Masters to fight Emperor Palpatine for more than a few seconds and not die, I'd say it's pretty obvious they're exceptional

Well so did Luke, to be fair.

Crom wrote: I thought they refused to admit him because they don't trust him and the way he acts, not on any basis of his experience.

One reason yes but power and experience aren't the same thing remember. But it's still an example of the council not neccesarily being made out of the strongest Jedi.

I guess I'm just surprised how varied the power level of the Jedi Council is. Which is why I have to ask, are Mace Windu and Yoda unique among the Jedi? I'd been assuming all this time that they, and Obi-Wan, were the standard.

They aren't. Mace Windu is one of the best swordsmen among the Jedi and created his own fighting style. Yoda is the oldest and most experienced of the masters, and Obi-Wan is (at least according to the Ep. 3 novelization) a shining example of what a Jedi should strive to be.

You pretty much have to be exceptional to get on the council and not in raw power either.

Mace and Yoda are probably the most experienced and skilled Jedi, that making exceptional. Both seem to have mastered sword and hand-to-hand techniques, as well as Force powers, that go far, far beyond any normal Jedi.

Notice you didnt see other Jedi tacking on scores of Droids at once in Clone Wars. Even when they did, they could easily hold their own, but not outright win hands down like Mace and Yoda, just plastering droids left and right.

There is a reason why. They really dont reprisent what a normal Jedi can do. I'm sure Anakin could do the same, Vader probably too, but they're definately more experienced than Anakin so maybe not.

Point is: i think they're exceptional, not a good example of a normal Jedi, but of the most experienced, high-high-end Jedi Masters.

Dooku wasn't defeated by Yoda. They fought each other to a stalemate, which favored Yoda since his side was winning the battle and he could expect reinforcements. So distracting Yoda and getting the hell out of dodge was his best option.

I think that other than just being an exceptional saber expert, that Windu's main edge was his ability to see the 'shatterpoints', he naturally saw others weaknesses, and well that makes for a dramatic advantage

Yoda is not exeptional. He is rather a paragon of the Old Jedi Order and what it stands for - Self-Control, Restraint and Failure. Static isolation and lack of development. In terms of skill however, he is very good, among those Jedi.

Now, Qui-Gon, on the other hand, was exceptional, in that he was far more of a a free thinker than either of those two, who were part of the calcified Jedi leadership essentially responsible for thier poor preformance against the Sith.

Imperial Overlord wrote:Dooku wasn't defeated by Yoda. They fought each other to a stalemate, which favored Yoda since his side was winning the battle and he could expect reinforcements. So distracting Yoda and getting the hell out of dodge was his best option.

I disagree. Doku was clearly on the defensive the whole time, he never came close to breaking Yodas rythem and I think it clear he was far slower, barely staying ahead of Yoda. He may well have sensed the Clones comming and decided it was time to leave, but its also clear IMO that Yoda had the upper hand. The 'Fought well you have, my old Paldwan' was clearly a 'nice try, you die now' comment. Doku also appeared to agree with the 'this is just begining!', followed by the diversion to get clear. Notice he didn't even try to take a shot at Yoda, swing his sabre, force lighting or ANYTHING while YOda was saving his Jedi.

He endangered the Jedi to distract Yoda so he could leave and the only reason he fought Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin was because they caught up to him before he could do so. He successfully escaped, which was his goal in the first place.

He fought Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda back to back, held off or defeated all of his opponents, and successfully escaped. I wouldn't call that a defeat,

And Yoda basically says it at the end. "Victory? Victory, you say? No you dumb cunt, this ain't no victory."

I may have misremembered some of the dialogue, but that was the gist of it.

In any case, Anakin kills Dooku's arse dead without any help from Obi-Wan- you can't seriously claim Yoda wouldn't have pwn3d Dooku based on that.

Vympel wrote:In any case, Anakin kills Dooku's arse dead without any help from Obi-Wan- you can't seriously claim Yoda wouldn't have pwn3d Dooku based on that.

Yes you can The Emperor was there. Regardless if we applied such logic than Obi-Wan wouldn't be the Mack Daddy of Star Wars (TM), now would he? hehehe

Imperial Overlord wrote:He endangered the Jedi to distract Yoda so he could leave and the only reason he fought Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin was because they caught up to him before he could do so. He successfully escaped, which was his goal in the first place.

He fought Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda back to back, held off or defeated all of his opponents, and successfully escaped. I wouldn't call that a defeat,

I seem to recall the AOTC novelization making it fairly clear Dooku was losing.

I should think they're exceptional, since they're the only two Senior members of the Jedi Council.

http://www.starwars.com/eu/lit/novel/f2 ... l[quote]At the time of The Phantom Menace, Mace Windu was only forty years-old, yet he was one of only two Senior Members of the Jedi Council; the other being Yoda, who was pushing nine hundred and was known as one of the wisest and most powerful Jedi in the twenty-five-thousand-year history of the Order.[/quote]While it's from an interview with an EU author, I'm assuming the information is taken from canon sources. I may be wrong, so feel free to state otherwise.