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Xenophobe3691 wrote: Well, he is a Sith, and at this point he knows nothing about acheiving immortality

Oh I beg to disagree, it is that knowledge that ultimately Palpatine uses to turn Anakin.

Steven Snyder wrote:

Xenophobe3691 wrote: Well, he is a Sith, and at this point he knows nothing about acheiving immortality

Oh I beg to disagree, it is that knowledge that ultimately Palpatine uses to turn Anakin.

But he's lying. He doesn't actually have it. Even by Dark Empire, he envisions a perfect body subsumed in the dark side of the Force and fully immortal, but relies on shitty clones because he is unable to realize this.

Yoda affirms that the only kind of immortality - spiritual immortality is only capable through the light side of the Force.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: But he's lying. He doesn't actually have it. Even by Dark Empire, he envisions a perfect body subsumed in the dark side of the Force and fully immortal, but relies on shitty clones because he is unable to realize this.

Do you have any evidence from the novel or movie that shows this?

The "Emperor's New Clones" are not present in the novel, we know know exactly why Palpatine looks as he does, there is no darkside degeneration. In fact if the "Emperor's New Clones" did exist, he wouldn't be the disfigured man we see in RoTJ. The fact is, he shares the same horrid appearance 20 years later because he has the same damned body.

Steven Snyder wrote:Do you have any evidence from the novel or movie that shows this?

How about ALL of Yoda's discussion with Qui-Gon's spirit on Polis Massa.

Steven Snyder wrote:The "Emperor's New Clones" are not present in the novel, we know know exactly why Palpatine looks as he does, there is no darkside degeneration. In fact if the "Emperor's New Clones" did exist, he wouldn't be the disfigured man we see in RoTJ. The fact is, he shares the same horrid appearance 20 years later because he has the same damned body.

Wrong on three (and maybe four) counts. First, there is no explicit denial of further degeneration or the eventual use of clones (which would eventually be needed because of age anyway) - so they stand under the canon rules.

Second, you can't use ROTS to ROTJ comparison to disprove dark side degeneration, because canon ALREADY stated ROTJ Palpatine to not be his original body anyway. So you have not a clue from canon if he got worse after ROTS (he assumed his first replacement clone body before ANH).

Third, ROTJ Palpatine looks superficially to be more gaunt and thin and frail anyway than ROTS [wrinkly] Palpatine (recall all the claims that he looked "fat" and look at the bald head images - definitely more strong and vital and thick than the ROTJ visage anyway). And furthermore, the clones are stated to be more vulnerable to the depredations of the dark side than the original body. So it could stand anyway. And further deterioration would and could always be retconned as not readily visible in the original body. And the clones themselves could be retconned to be vulnerable to dark side decay even if no further was possible in the original body, from the same "clones further removed from natural life" bit.

And fourth, last I hear the jury may still be out on whether its a dopplegangerish visage which is obliterated - much reference to masks and whatnot in the novelisation - or his actual features.

It takes a lot to throw away huge sections of the Star Wars continuity. I really get annoyed by little jerks with agendas who try and weasel that through by strawmanning canon policy.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Steven Snyder wrote:Do you have any evidence from the novel or movie that shows this?

How about ALL of Yoda's discussion with Qui-Gon's spirit on Polis Massa.

I will look at this but it seems clear that in Chapter 21, Palpatine stops Vader from dying by "forcing his will upon him".

Wrong on three (and maybe four) counts. First, there is no explicit denial of further degeneration or the eventual use of clones (which would eventually be needed because of age anyway) - so they stand under the canon rules.

The denial is obvious to anyone who is watching the movie. The body that Palpatine is using in RoTS is disfigured due to a fight with Mace, the body he his inhabiting in RoTJ looks nearly identical.

It isn't degeneration you are looking at when you see the ruined face of Palpatine, you are seeing tissue damage from a fight. The movies make this absolutely clear.

If he had used a clone, he wouldn't be disfigured in RoTJ.

Second, you can't use ROTS to ROTJ comparison to disprove dark side degeneration,

The hell I can't. Darth Sidious/Palpatine appeared in 5 of the 6 films and in none of them he showed any evidence of this deterioration. In fact the progression of his body seems quite consistent.

because canon ALREADY stated ROTJ Palpatine to not be his original body anyway. So you have not a clue from canon if he got worse after ROTS (he assumed his first replacement clone body before ANH).

Right....and I assume Mace Windu jumped out of a grave to replay the same fight that disfigured him so that his new clone body would show the exact signs of the same battle?

Third, ROTJ Palpatine looks superficially to be more gaunt and thin and frail anyway than ROTS [wrinkly] Palpatine

You do realize that Palpatine was an older man and 20 years had gone by?

So after 20 years Palpatine looks more frail than he did earlier, this sounds exactly like age progression. I am glad you see that he is aging consistently, something that wouldn't be expected with a cloned body. I accept you concession.

And fourth, last I hear the jury may still be out on whether its a dopplegangerish visage which is obliterated - much reference to masks and whatnot in the novelisation - or his actual features.

The jury is NOT out on that. He was speaking in a "melancholy" tone because he was going to miss the face of Palpatine, a face ruined by the fight with Mace.

It takes a lot to throw away huge sections of the Star Wars continuity. I really get annoyed by little jerks with agendas who try and weasel that through by strawmanning canon policy.

Darkside Degeneration has no continuity, it was come up with by another writer who misinterpreted the visage of Emperor Palpatine and came up with some wild-ass explanation. An explanation that no longers fits with what we see in the films...just like the history of a certain bounty hunter.


Darth Maul
Darth Tyranus
Darth Vader
and now...
Darth Sidious
None of these have ever shown any onscreen evidence of this condition.

Steven Snyder wrote:Darkside Degeneration has no continuity, it was come up with by another writer who misinterpreted the visage of Emperor Palpatine and came up with some wild-ass explanation. An explanation that no longers fits with what we see in the films...just like the history of a certain bounty hunter.


Darth Maul
Darth Tyranus
Darth Vader
and now...
Darth Sidious
None of these have ever shown any onscreen evidence of this condition.

IIRC the RotJ novelisation makes a reference to it - but that could be explained by Mace's counter attack too so ...

Look, I'd like to throw out the idiotic Dark Empire 'plot' as much as the next guy, but there is no basis for doing so from the movies themselves. We need a direct contradiction between the movies and DE (or another source higher than DE) to do so. By direct contradiction I mean someone shows Palpy a clone of him and he declares abomination, and orders all cloning to stop. Short of that, DE stands.

It is not clear at all that it was the force lightning that made Palpatine's face what it was- in paticular, see in the novelization Darth Sidious musing about how the "face of Palpatine" would be missed, but the "face of Sidious" would do. That implies that is his true form. Furthermore, this also explains Anakin's "Sith" eyes.

Vympel wrote:It is not clear at all that it was the force lightning that made Palpatine's face what it was- in paticular, see in the novelization Darth Sidious musing about how the "face of Palpatine" would be missed, but the "face of Sidious" would do. That implies that is his true form. Furthermore, this also explains Anakin's "Sith" eyes.

The script says this;

129(99) wrote:Mace pushes Palpatine out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine's hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor's face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.

It's pretty clear that the facial is due to his own force powers being directed onto him, but the eyes could just be a sign of 'power up'.

Vympel wrote:It is not clear at all that it was the force lightning that made Palpatine's face what it was- in paticular, see in the novelization Darth Sidious musing about how the "face of Palpatine" would be missed, but the "face of Sidious" would do. That implies that is his true form. Furthermore, this also explains Anakin's "Sith" eyes.

Read the scene where it is happening...

As the Force Lightning surged through him it fed on his own fury, and channeled back into Mace and then back into himself. It was a continous loop that was gaining in power.

Anakin saw the Emperor's skin melt like oil and his bones warp and deform. We are talking about some very serious physical damage here.

Steven Snyder wrote:I will look at this but it seems clear that in Chapter 21, Palpatine stops Vader from dying by "forcing his will upon him".

And that's inconsistent with normal Force-fed healing abilities? That doesn't mean he could make on immortal. No limit fallacy.

Steven Snyder wrote:The denial is obvious to anyone who is watching the movie. The body that Palpatine is using in RoTS is disfigured due to a fight with Mace, the body he his inhabiting in RoTJ looks nearly identical.

I disagree. I think he lookes worse in ROTJ. Care to conclusively and objectively prove that?

Steven Snyder wrote:It isn't degeneration you are looking at when you see the ruined face of Palpatine, you are seeing tissue damage from a fight. The movies make this absolutely clear.

The literalist interpretation is poor; real life electical or other burn damage DOES NOT lead to those effects.

The only possible explanation is superphysical damage caused by the Force, so to throw out the concept of dark side-caused decay is rather hypocritical.

Steven Snyder wrote:If he had used a clone, he wouldn't be disfigured in RoTJ.

I don't like pricks with agendas. Especially when said pricks don't check the source they desperately want to trash before they go off on their little dream.

The DESB itself says that clones are further removed from the life-protecting properties of the Force and are far more vulnerable to damage from the dark side than a natural body. Even if NO OTHER DAMAGE OCCURS to the original body other than age, the canon still accounts for the dark side-caused decay in the clones.

Steven Snyder wrote:The hell I can't. Darth Sidious/Palpatine appeared in 5 of the 6 films and in none of them he showed any evidence of this deterioration. In fact the progression of his body seems quite consistent.

Your point being? You're using an image from 20 years before Yavin and one three and one four years after to disprove the accounted-for taking of a clone body years before Yavin. Newsflash dipshit: that's not a representative sample. Not only does the new TESB Palpatine not look that much like the ROTJ Palpatine (and I lamented this when we found out), but those two instances are too close together to disprove the decay of a body on the scale of many years, starting before Yavin.

Steven Snyder wrote:Right....and I assume Mace Windu jumped out of a grave to replay the same fight that disfigured him so that his new clone body would show the exact signs of the same battle?

No, the original body was damaged by the extraphysical effects of the dark side, he continued to age and grow in power, further aging and harming himself, and then he assumed a clone body (verified) which suffered dark side decay even without the initiating damage because clones are removed from the Force and vulnerable to degeneration caused by using the dark side (verified).

This would be the third time I've stated that the canon accounts for the unique vulnerability suffered by clones, and you just continue to ignore it. What a piece of shit.

Steven Snyder wrote:You do realize that Palpatine was an older man and 20 years had gone by?

Isn't it your position he achieved immortality?

SW science allows people to people age comfortably into their 150s. Palpatine's further aging can be taken as evidence of further dark side decay, and harmonization is always a first resort to contradiction. So I'm right, again.

Steven Snyder wrote:So after 20 years Palpatine looks more frail than he did earlier, this sounds exactly like age progression. I am glad you see that he is aging consistently, something that wouldn't be expected with a cloned body. I accept you concession.

Except I'm not a dishonest little shit who is armtwisting canon policy and the whole body of evidence in a clear agenda to discount evidence which you already disliked before.

Steven Snyder wrote:Darkside Degeneration has no continuity,

Sure it does - in the EU. The filmic examples are not representative samples capable of conclusive disproof, so they're irrelevent.

Steven Snyder wrote:it was come up with by another writer who misinterpreted the visage of Emperor Palpatine and came up with some wild-ass explanation. An explanation that no longers fits with what we see in the films...just like the history of a certain bounty hunter.

Hardly. Even if the decay of the original body is inadmissible (although you yourself mentioned further aging; if you were prescribing to the same policy LFL was, perhaps you would offered this as harmonizing), clones are stated to be more vulnerable to the dark side than original bodies, so the decay pattern would still be viable in the clone vessels.

Steven Snyder wrote:Darth Maul
Darth Tyranus
Darth Vader
and now...
Darth Sidious
None of these have ever shown any onscreen evidence of this condition.

None of them were exhibiting the strength in the Force that Palpatine did. There were examples in the EU of other darksiders who similarly began to be eaten away by their own power.

And furthermore, Vader in SotE admits that he intentionally keeps himself from dipping too far into the dark side, lest he be eaten away like Palpatine.

Steven Snyder wrote:

Vympel wrote:It is not clear at all that it was the force lightning that made Palpatine's face what it was- in paticular, see in the novelization Darth Sidious musing about how the "face of Palpatine" would be missed, but the "face of Sidious" would do. That implies that is his true form. Furthermore, this also explains Anakin's "Sith" eyes.

Read the scene where it is happening...

As the Force Lightning surged through him it fed on his own fury, and channeled back into Mace and then back into himself. It was a continous loop that was gaining in power.

Anakin saw the Emperor's skin melt like oil and his bones warp and deform. We are talking about some very serious physical damage here.

Its also very figurative. Palpatine makes a bunch of references like "the mask becomes the man" and so on and so forth. And besides, real electrical burn damage and actual "skin flowing like oil and bones warping" is not commiserate with anything actually observed. The last thing you want to search for is a highly literalist bit there, because I guaren-fucking-tee you if you get struck with lightning in the face, you won't look like that.

How about the fact that Force lightning has never been observed to do that before or since?

Vymp - maybe you ought to split this and put heavy spoiler warnings on it?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How about the fact that Force lightning has never been observed to do that before or since?

Don't be an idiot. We've never seen force users push living objects before (or since if you ignore RotS) Dooku slapping Anakin in AotC, does that mean we can discount it? No.

The script makes it clear, the Force Lightning being directed back onto him by Mace distorts his face. End. Of. Story.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How about the fact that Force lightning has never been observed to do that before or since?

Don't be an idiot. We've never seen force users push living objects before (or since if you ignore RotS) Dooku slapping Anakin in AotC,

Yes we have: Maul force pushed Obi-wan at the end of TPM. Also, Luke pushed as well as choked those two Gammorean Guards in ROTJ.

Stofsk wrote:

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How about the fact that Force lightning has never been observed to do that before or since?

Don't be an idiot. We've never seen force users push living objects before (or since if you ignore RotS) Dooku slapping Anakin in AotC,

Yes we have: Maul force pushed Obi-wan at the end of TPM. Also, Luke pushed as well as choked those two Gammorean Guards in ROTJ.

Plus doesn't Anakin Force-push away some Geonosian guards when he's with Padme in AoTC?

Stofsk wrote:

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How about the fact that Force lightning has never been observed to do that before or since?

Don't be an idiot. We've never seen force users push living objects before (or since if you ignore RotS) Dooku slapping Anakin in AotC,

Yes we have: Maul force pushed Obi-wan at the end of TPM. Also, Luke pushed as well as choked those two Gammorean Guards in ROTJ.

Luke just chocked them in RotJ, but conceeded on the Maul issue, although that doesn't change the arguement does it? If all we had was that one example (take Maul, or Dooku whichever you prefer), then that is all we need, it doesn't matter whether or not it happened before or if it happens again, only vs Trekkies seem incapable of accepting that.

Fuck it, I'll change the analogy so I don't lose people on this.

TPM, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan become transluscent, it has never happened before or since*, does this mean that Jedi can't do this?



EDIT :: *Please don't bring up Yoda in RotJ, since;

1. He died, and
2. His blanket didn't pass through him until he fully dissapeared unlike the droids blaster bolts which passed right through Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan.

Well I wasn't jumping in between you and IP to carry his argument, I was just correcting you. Indeed, I don't even think that was a Force Push (or as WOTC likes to call it, Force Strike) that Dooku did in AOTC to Anakin; it was more like a "pick him up and throw him" thing.

Luke DOES use choke in ROTJ, but he ALSO uses push - see the scene again, the piggies block his way with the vibroaxes, then Luke does a gesture and they clutch at their throat gagging but they're also pushed back. When Vader choked everyone in ANH and ESB, they just stood there and died. From people who were both sitting down and standing up. But the Gammoreans were pushed right back against the walls.

It's the same thing with Dooku using force lightning and picking up Anakin. He was using two different skills at the same time. Same deal with Luke in ROTJ. At least, I now think so. It just doesn't seem to be a choke-only thing.

[EDIT] I know this is a nitpick anyway, I'm not even arguing what IP is. Hell, I don't even know what you two are going over, I just saw the "no-push" thing and thought I'd correct it as I saw it.

Stofsk wrote:Luke DOES use choke in ROTJ, but he ALSO uses push - see the scene again, the piggies block his way with the vibroaxes, then Luke does a gesture and they clutch at their throat gagging but they're also pushed back. When Vader choked everyone in ANH and ESB, they just stood there and died. From people who were both sitting down and standing up. But the Gammoreans were pushed right back against the walls.

Err no. The first one stands there and (presumably dies as we cut away) the second one back peddles until he topples over onto his ass and dies aswell. It is in no way clear that Luke Force pushed the second one, he could have been trying to run away/back peddle in panick. At the most Luke Force nudged.

Either way it is imaterial due to the Maul and Anakin evidence.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How about the fact that Force lightning has never been observed to do that before or since?

Don't be an idiot. We've never seen force users push living objects before (or since if you ignore RotS) Dooku slapping Anakin in AotC, does that mean we can discount it? No.

The script makes it clear, the Force Lightning being directed back onto him by Mace distorts his face. End. Of. Story.

Yes, but to imply it is that natural, typical product of being hit by Force lightning is absurd. As I pointed out before, there is odd dark side juju about, and not simply being on the recieving end of an electrical burn. If you except these apparently hyperphysical transformations wrought by the dark side, than to dismiss the decay caused by the dark side out of hand is absurd and self-contradictory. You're already allowing for bizarre dark side decay properties when Palpatine's face warps in real time (this is stupid) on account of being struck with Force lightning.

You misunderstood. The assertion that this is the natural, objective product of being on the recieving end of a Force-generated electric current is absurd.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crown wrote:Don't be an idiot. We've never seen force users push living objects before (or since if you ignore RotS) Dooku slapping Anakin in AotC, does that mean we can discount it? No.

The script makes it clear, the Force Lightning being directed back onto him by Mace distorts his face. End. Of. Story.

Yes, but to imply it is that natural, typical product of being hit by Force lightning is absurd. As I pointed out before, there is odd dark side juju about, and not simply being on the recieving end of an electrical burn. If you except these apparently hyperphysical transformations wrought by the dark side, than to dismiss the decay caused by the dark side out of hand is absurd and self-contradictory. You're already allowing for bizarre dark side decay properties when Palpatine's face warps in real time (this is stupid) on account of being struck with Force lightning.

I'm not dismissing the decay caused by the dark side out of hand at all my previous post to Steven Snyder made that clear. I'm saying the script clearly says that it was the Force Lightning redirected back at Palpy that first caused this decay, perhaps prompting him to get into a new clone body in the first place.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You misunderstood. The assertion that this is the natural, objective product of being on the recieving end of a Force-generated electric current is absurd.

Why is it 'absurd'? Anymore absurd than getting an X-ray done at the same time? RotJ (IIRC) mentions Force Lightning as being a corruption of the Force, one that sucks the life out of it's victims, wouldn't aging be a product of that? Or deformation? Regardless it was natural or not, the script says that is what caused Palpy's deformation in the movie. Which, as I again pointed out to Steven Snyder doesn't contradict DE enough such that it gets over ridden by new informaiton.

Incase you didn't notice, besides the 'novelisation doesn't make it clear enough if the Force Lightning caused the change' point of yours, I'm actually on your side in this debate - despite my abhorrence for the DE 'plot'.

Split accomplished.

Crown wrote:I'm not dismissing the decay caused by the dark side out of hand at all my previous post to Steven Snyder made that clear. I'm saying the script clearly says that it was the Force Lightning redirected back at Palpy that first caused this decay, perhaps prompting him to get into a new clone body in the first place.

I know you are not personally, but I'm saying that his argument implies its just the natural consequence of being hit with Force lightning, which is not true for the obvious extraphysical effects and the precise kind of dark side bad-juju-for-the-flesh which Snyder denies exists.

See above:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The literalist interpretation is poor; real life electical or other burn damage DOES NOT lead to those effects.

The only possible explanation is superphysical damage caused by the Force, so to throw out the concept of dark side-caused decay is rather hypocritical.

Crown wrote:Why is it 'absurd'? Anymore absurd than getting an X-ray done at the same time? RotJ (IIRC) mentions Force Lightning as being a corruption of the Force, one that sucks the life out of it's victims, wouldn't aging be a product of that? Or deformation? Regardless it was natural or not, the script says that is what caused Palpy's deformation in the movie. Which, as I again pointed out to Steven Snyder doesn't contradict DE enough such that it gets over ridden by new informaiton.

I'm not arguing that, but that's not what happens when you get blasted with energy in the face. Its a corruption of the Force destroying flesh from within; the principle of which Snyder denies should be seen in the canon, even though, if anything, ROTS locks in precisely the effects the dark side has on living flesh, albeit intensified and much accelerated into a small frame.

So to dismiss the concept out of hand seems foolish to me.

Crown wrote:Incase you didn't notice, besides the 'novelisation doesn't make it clear enough if the Force Lightning caused the change' point of yours, I'm actually on your side in this debate - despite my abhorrence for the DE 'plot'.

I know.

Can somebody please explain to me, why clone-bodies are more vulnerable to the darkside, than normal-born bodies? I mean, couldn't Palpatine look as decayed as he was in DE, because his clone-body had been already tinkered with? Better strenght, better endurance or something like that? After all, his second body was blown apart at a younger age and his last one had been sabotaged, so there would have been no reason to make DarkSide-decay responsible for it.

FTeik wrote:Can somebody please explain to me, why clone-bodies are more vulnerable to the darkside, than normal-born bodies? I mean, couldn't Palpatine look as decayed as he was in DE, because his clone-body had been already tinkered with? Better strenght, better endurance or something like that? After all, his second body was blown apart at a younger age and his last one had been sabotaged, so there would have been no reason to make DarkSide-decay responsible for it.

I did not make this up; its stated in the official notes accompanying the trade paperback of Dark Empire.

Dark Empire wrote:FLESH DOES NOT EASILY SUPPORT THIS POWER

...

And his Dark Side [sic] powers, combined with the most sophisticated military technology ever known, game him the strenght to vanquish his most dangerous opponents: the thousands of Jedi Knights, guardians of justice throughout the galaxy.

But early on, Palpatine learn that addiction to the fathomless energies of the Dark Side [sic] carroed a great price: age and physical decay hastened their pace, and his body collapsed toward ruin, like a world oppressed.

....

THE CLONING OF ABSOLUTE MALEVOLENCE

...

On a hidden world, deep in the Galactic Core, Palpatine prepare a genetic clone of himself, and raised this clone to young manhood.

At the moment when his diseased and crippled flesh could no longer sustain itself, he moved, as mind and formless energy, into the youthful replica!

Being a clone, the new vessel was a step removed from the life-sustaining protection of the Force - and more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side [sic]. As a result, The Emperor's [sic] new body would age even more rapidly than the old, and within a few years it too would become corrupted and useless. [emphasis mine]

I did not make this up; its stated in the official notes accompanying the trade paperback of Dark Empire.

Parden me, but I was wondering something. Is this a book adaptation of the Dark Empire comic book or is it still a story with pictures. I ask cause I would love to read Dark Empire but I really don't want to read it in comic format. So if it is a book (with words) then it would really make my day.

Admiral Felire wrote:

I did not make this up; its stated in the official notes accompanying the trade paperback of Dark Empire.

Parden me, but I was wondering something. Is this a book adaptation of the Dark Empire comic book or is it still a story with pictures. I ask cause I would love to read Dark Empire but I really don't want to read it in comic format. So if it is a book (with words) then it would really make my day.

A trade paperback is a compilation of all the comics in a given series. Sorry. Its still a graphic novel. However, Publius is realizing a fanfiction retelling of the Dark Empire story on his website and it is superb so far.

Crown wrote:

Vympel wrote:It is not clear at all that it was the force lightning that made Palpatine's face what it was- in paticular, see in the novelization Darth Sidious musing about how the "face of Palpatine" would be missed, but the "face of Sidious" would do. That implies that is his true form. Furthermore, this also explains Anakin's "Sith" eyes.

The script says this;

129(99) wrote:Mace pushes Palpatine out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine's hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor's face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.

It's pretty clear that the facial is due to his own force powers being directed onto him, but the eyes could just be a sign of 'power up'.

This doesn't have to be taken literally - that is, that the size lightning is literally disfiguring and damaging his face - rather that the lighting is breaking through the visage he was keeping up.