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After having watched AOTC recently and the entirety of the clone Wars cartoons in one sitting one thing that annoys me is the lack of good tactics and general strategy from both sides in particular in infantry.

In AOTC we get several shots of clone troopers and Droids just standing in front of each other and shooting into each other without flinching, bothering to take cover or advancing under a base of fire. Its as if the Clones learned to fight in the Napoleanic era.

We see armored assault vehicles but no armored spearheads. The assault vehicles are advancing slowly behind a screen of infantry. Hardly what you would expect on terrain built for armored assaults (flat and open)

The Clone Troopers in particular irk me because they don't seem to use their LAATs the way they'r obviously designed for, rapid insertions and fire support. We should have seen clone troops dropped in off in clusters all throughout and behind enemy lines. We should not have seen them advancing - at a slow pace - into enemy fire and simply firing back.

This is alleviated slightly in the Clone Wars cartoons where we see CLone troops landed behind enemy lines and evac'd under heavy fire to reposition the troops. But still not as mobile as something like a LAAT should make them. There should be clones everywhere on a battlefield, the droid armies should be constantly under heavy fire from clones being dropped behind them, then picked up and dropped to the left flank, back to the rear, etc. It would certainly help alleviate the edge in numbers that the droids have.

The only arm of the Clone Army I have seen used successfully is artillary. The SPHATs bring down enemy ships and in the clone wars cartoon they slowly demolish a city without the army having to engage.

Look at the droids as an example of the dumbing down for major engagements we see in AOTC and Clone Wars. In TPM the battle droids advance using covering fire and always taking advantage of cover - prime example of this is the assault on Theed palace in particular when the droids are pinning down the Queen's foces in the corridors. They scoot out from column to column while their comrades lay down suppressing fire. We saw nothing of that in the Arena of Geonosis or the plains of the planet or in the Clone Wars cartoons. The droids are portrayed as simply walking into fire and firing back.

Granted we see the occasional good use of missile fire, artillery, anti aircraft fire but when it comes to infantry and tanks, its just advance in human waves and blast into each other.

And the less said about a Speeder bike charge with jousting droids the better.

Anyway how do we explain this Napoleanic state of affairs in infantry combat? The clones were trained by Jango and suposedly he's a good fighter - so its a little difficult to see these tactics utilized by his clones in combat. We do see some good fighting from the elite units in the Clone Wars cartoon but its usually small unit tactics by a select few which incidentally enough we never see any Imperial stormtroopers fight like the elite coomando units we see in the clone wars cartoon.

Well, IIRC the Republic hadn't fought a full-scale war in practically forever...

But to be honest, you're correct. Even though there were no galactic conflicts, there *must* still have been some inter-system and planetary fights (Naboo, to name one). Plenty of opportunity to learn about infantry tactics and the like there.

However, one could argue that the Republic's generals-- the Jedi-- were largely involved as peacekeepers, not actual combatants. Therefore, any fighting they saw, was largely from the rear.

Another factor to consider-- had it not been for Qui-gon and Obi-wan's intervention at Naboo, the Federation would have eventually broken Queen Amidala. I imagine that most Jedi aren't nearly as proactive as that particular pair, and that most military conflicts are resolved either a.) fairly quickly through surprise or overwhelming force of arms, and are over before the Jedi get called in and end up negotiating the treaty; or b.) it becomes a protracted conflict, in which case you see something similar to the Clone Wars, except on much smaller scale, and with the Jedi more or less going, "Please, won't someone stop shooting and let us talk for once?!"

Hmm... I just noticed that this is a rather disjointed ramble.... oh well...

Id have to say lack of inexpierence backed by absolute folloiwng of orders, but youd think after the first thousand clones die, you might order 'take cover'

I was irked by that too. You just see clone troopers rush across fast open terrain. Thank god battledroids can't aim past like 9m or something otherwise they'd be really screwed.

Perhaps all we really saw maybe were just snippets (I hope) of the battle? Or once again, Palpatine didn't really care about the training of his troops and commanders in battle tactics. It was a war he had designed to win.

Stravo wrote:The clones were trained by Jango and suposedly he's a good fighter - so its a little difficult to see these tactics utilized by his clones in combat. We do see some good fighting from the elite units in the Clone Wars cartoon but its usually small unit tactics by a select few which incidentally enough we never see any Imperial stormtroopers fight like the elite coomando units we see in the clone wars cartoon.

Well, the ARCs in the toons are the ones handpicked and directly trained by Jango himself. The rest of them probably went through training modules and field training (on the mock theater seen in the AOTC ITW)... which brings me to ask two questions:

1. How much did Jango Fett know of large scale infantry combat?

2. Where did teh Kaminoans get the generic trooper training modules and software? External contract? Some Kaminoan war expert? All we see onscreen of their training are hand-to-hand, parade marches and vehicle piloting simulators.

Enforcer Talen wrote:Id have to say lack of inexpierence backed by absolute folloiwng of orders, but youd think after the first thousand clones die, you might order 'take cover'

WWII troops were all well versed in taking cover and advancing under a base of fire. I find it hard to believe that troops trained under a supposed bad ass super comando did not have these basics at least in their training regimine.

What was it anyway? How to stand and fire under enemy fire?

Its just really annoying that inexperience would be used (and Talen this is not on you at all, I know this is an EU explanation) when Clonetroops are SUPPOSED to be troops trained how to fight by a veteran of combat.

And did the battledroids lose their tactical programming between TPM and AOTC?

Trytostaydead wrote:I was irked by that too. You just see clone troopers rush across fast open terrain. Thank god battledroids can't aim past like 9m or something otherwise they'd be really screwed.

Perhaps all we really saw maybe were just snippets (I hope) of the battle? Or once again, Palpatine didn't really care about the training of his troops and commanders in battle tactics. It was a war he had designed to win.

i know the games arent as high cannon as the movies but in Republic Commando we learn that there were a few groups of Commando Squads that were put behind the lines to sabatouge some of the Trade Federation ships and such
plus the book Republic Commando has Darman recalling some of the fights that we see in the game

I think they're trying to show Clonetroopers/Stormtroopers as fearless (stupid fearless though) and in those situations the advantage was already known and they were kind of just plowing through the droids. We didn't see that many Clone loses, and later on they were advancing on a retreating army. The extraction of the Jedi in the arena started off well and I think they had air superiority since that point, could be a reason to all out advance with air cover. We see heavy weapons and air cover take out anything dangerous to a vehicle and Clone artillery didn't even have to deal with any counter artillery so I'm just guessing that it was a rout from the get go. But yeah the Clones could've taken cover and let the big and mobile guns take everything out while just laying down fire to stop advances and take minimal loses.

Its slim, but perhaps when Droids lose their controlling computer and have to become autonomous, they revert back to basic programming or instructions, such as kill anything not a droid, and they lose their sense of fine tactics. The Clonetroopers lack of tactics in the Clonewars cartoons I imagine has to be because the creators were intrested in action, rather than accuracy. AOTC has no such excuse IMHO. Once a colum of Clones lost their Jedi shield, they really should have practiced fire and manuever tactics. I could understand green troops, but the Clones had been through exercises and should at least understand the basics. The battlefield is the ultimate test, either you pass or fail. I'll give it to the Clones, they have some hard disiciplne to advance under fire in a line wihtout going prone or seeking cover.

"aggressive shooting", aka advancing while firing, works well against enemies who want to live, because it forces them to take cover or die. Unfortunately, the battle droids probably don't have a "will to live" thingy programmed into them, and neither do clonetroopers probably.

Stravo wrote: The Clone Troopers in particular irk me because they don't seem to use their LAATs the way they'r obviously designed for, rapid insertions and fire support. We should have seen clone troops dropped in off in clusters all throughout and behind enemy lines. We should not have seen them advancing - at a slow pace - into enemy fire and simply firing back.

Actually, we do "see" this happening in the novelisation, ITW and other secondary data like the games. The Clone apparently sent surgical strikes at defence installations across the planet and there appears to be secondary battles occuring at other places other than the landing field where Anakin/Obiwan was. This is backed up by Padme just so happening to pick up a clone trooper after she fell off the LAAT.

Frankly, the less said about tactics for movies, the better. Just look at ROTJ.

This is backed up by Padme just so happening to pick up a clone trooper after she fell off the LAAT.

She didn´t find him, he fell out of the gunship when she did.

As for tactics in AOTC, didn´t the first tanks in WW I go behind the advancing troops much like we see the AT-TE's doing? Could be another RL parallell, with the Republic not knowing how to utilize new hardware properly.

SW and tactics. (insert: I fell off my chair laughing and hurt my head.)

TPM.

The droids had the gungans standing in the middle of a field inside a shield.

Step 1: Surround them with tanks and cut off their supplies.
Step 2: Issue ultimatum: Gungans surrender or starve.
Step 3: Wait.

Now the gungans can attack and get blown to pieces or hide inside their shield and starve.
Oh, and the droids can keep up a constant bombardment, just to cause stress to the gungans. Droids don't really need rest, gungans do.
For extra fun, droids employ probing attacks to which the gungans have to respond.

I rest my case.

-Gunhead

According to Hard Contact the clones go through a grueling training regimen overseen by some of the best veteran fighters in the galaxy, as selected by Jango.

Of course, this isn't reflected in their on-screen tactics, unless Jango was actually getting jobs for all his in-laws by claiming they were military professionals.

"But... but... I'm just a used speeder salesman."

"So you put down 'vehicle combat specialist' on your application. Trust me, they never check."

Petrosjko wrote:According to Hard Contact the clones go through a grueling training regimen overseen by some of the best veteran fighters in the galaxy, as selected by Jango.

Of course, this isn't reflected in their on-screen tactics, unless Jango was actually getting jobs for all his in-laws by claiming they were military professionals.

"But... but... I'm just a used speeder salesman."

"So you put down 'vehicle combat specialist' on your application. Trust me, they never check."

That was just the Commandos and ARC troopers, IIRC.

Manus Celer Dei wrote:

Petrosjko wrote:According to Hard Contact the clones go through a grueling training regimen overseen by some of the best veteran fighters in the galaxy, as selected by Jango.

Of course, this isn't reflected in their on-screen tactics, unless Jango was actually getting jobs for all his in-laws by claiming they were military professionals.

"But... but... I'm just a used speeder salesman."

"So you put down 'vehicle combat specialist' on your application. Trust me, they never check."

That was just the Commandos and ARC troopers, IIRC.

Could've swore it was all the Clones who got that, and the Commandos and ARCs just got more specialized training.

Anybody got the book closer to hand than I do to answer that one?

Another possible explanation for the strange tactics on both sides is that it's due to Sidious. If you want the war to drag on for as long as possible so as to consolidate your power-base and to create such wide-spread devestation that the people will willingly embrace an era of New Order, then shitty tactics are one way to go.

Now, this works in the overall context of the war, but as for the battle sequences of AOTC and the micro-series -- well, let's just blame it on the animators.

Stravo wrote:Its as if the Clones learned to fight in the Napoleanic era.

That is partly intentional. The Republic has been peaceful so long that this is all new to them remember. We've combat tried our infantry tactics continously, they haven't. And for all the Kaminoan training, they have no real experience either. The same is true of the Trade Federation.

Their tactics may look amateurish to us, but we've fought wars in living memory. They haven't. Even Yoda was born 200 years after the last galactic war.

NecronLord wrote:

Stravo wrote:Its as if the Clones learned to fight in the Napoleanic era.

That is partly intentional. The Republic has been peaceful so long that this is all new to them remember. We've combat tried our infantry tactics continously, they haven't. And for all the Kaminoan training, they have no real experience either. The same is true of the Trade Federation.

Their tactics may look amateurish to us, but we've fought wars in living memory. They haven't. Even Yoda was born 200 years after the last galactic war.

That's bullshit. The Stark Hyperspace War was fought less than a decade before Naboo. There have been many bush wars and other conflicts described in a multitude of sources describing the Prequel Era. The Naboo security forces showed more prowess in MOUT than the clones or droids showed in the open field.

And for the record, they didn't fight like that in the Napoleanic era for no reason: that really was suited toward the weapons and equipment then fielded in battle.

There is quite simply little to no logical reason to fight like that with longarms that can achieve an effective range of 10 kilometers with a perfectly flat trajectory when tripod-mounted. Its totally absurd.

I can understand the droids were mostly for security and for show than real hardened combat, but the clones really ought to be done better in most of the sources we've seen.

NecronLord wrote:

Stravo wrote:Its as if the Clones learned to fight in the Napoleanic era.

That is partly intentional. The Republic has been peaceful so long that this is all new to them remember. We've combat tried our infantry tactics continously, they haven't. And for all the Kaminoan training, they have no real experience either. The same is true of the Trade Federation.

Their tactics may look amateurish to us, but we've fought wars in living memory. They haven't.

Doesn't quite explain how Naboo peace keepers know to keep to cover and lay down suppressing fire and advance from a base of fire throughout the assualt on Theed. Are Naboo cops better than clone troops trained by a Mandalorian commando? Troops that are intentionally being trained and prepared for war as opposed to Naboo Peace Officers?

The battle droids also utilize shoot and scoot manuevers in TPM yet are extremely dumbed down in AOTC.

And Tactics usually link up with technology. One of the reasons people fought the way they did in Napoleonic era was the technlogy aviable to them, their rifles andc the volume of fire needed to overcome the enemy lines forceing people to stand there in lines and shoot into each other. By the time of the American Civil War rifle technology and the like had advanced to the point where such tactics were making casulaties mount at incredible rates. They were figthing using out dated tactics.

In WW II the soldiers had to move because unlike WWI they couldn't just hunkerdown and wait out the assaults behind trenches and fortifications. Mechanized warfare demanded movement, fire supression and assaults based on base of fire.

Star Wars technology would assume you don't want to stand out in the open and fire into each other like that especially with gigaton and megaton level weapons yields.

Stravo, great minds think alike.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo, great minds think alike.

I read your post after mine was posted and I thought the exact same thing. Great minds baby. Always good to be on your side in an argument on these things.

While I agree that the tactics are remarkably dumb and straight out of WW1, they aren't terribly surprising. Look who they came from. Jango is just a seriously bad fighter in the movies. The man stands on top of a building and puts a dart in some guy in full view of his enemies. If they'd have had rifles he'd have been picked outta the sky with ease. (look at how easily the bounty hunter he killed shot that droid that was bobing and weaving through the air thanks to the targeting system she used) Further, his primary weapons are pistols for god sake and to fight jedi, who are well known for parrying such things, he gets in close with'em anyway. Thats just dumb.

So its no surprise that his clones would fight the exact same way. They too get in close and shoot until the other guy falls over.

xammer99 wrote: So its no surprise that his clones would fight the exact same way. They too get in close and shoot until the other guy falls over.

How does that explain the ARC Commandoes and special troopers that we see fighting in the clonewars? They were personally trained by Jango and they sneak around, they fire from behind cover, they utilize covering fire, etc.

Better writing?