Are the members of the Jedi Council the most powerful Jedi?

[Rommie2006]

As usual no spoilers for Ep 3 ROTS please. Much appreciated.



I've been wondering for some time if ALL the members sitting on the Jedi Council are among like the "top 10" most powerful(and wise) Jedi at any point in time.

Clearly Mace and Yoda qualify as such uber Jedi, but after seeing the Clone Wars cartoon, I found Ki-Adi Mundi and Shaak Ti to be well.. lacking in power. In the grevious scene, Shaak Ti got her butt kicked in seconds (and she was a member of the Jedi council right?), while Ki-Adi managed to hold his own barely (if not for the ARC troopers reinforcement I doubt he'll win). Also in the Clone Wars cartoon, Obi-wan was sitting with the Jedi Council. Had he been promoted to become a full member of the Jedi Council? Cos I always figured that he was just some run-the-mill Jedi, with nothing exceptional about him.

[SylasGaunt]

Clearly Mace and Yoda qualify as such uber Jedi, but after seeing the Clone Wars cartoon, I found Ki-Adi Mundi and Shaak Ti to be well.. lacking in power.

Shaak Ti as I recall has quite a reputation. As for lacking in power look how she did against those IG-100s, high-end battledroids built to fight Jedi. Problem is that Grievous is a seriously nasty customer, not that the Jedi in question are weak.

In the grevious scene, Shaak Ti got her butt kicked in seconds (and she was a member of the Jedi council right?), while Ki-Adi managed to hold his own barely (if not for the ARC troopers reinforcement I doubt he'll win).

Ki-Adi was pretty much toast. But then as you say he gets rescued by a gunship load of the best non-force sensitive troops in the Republic who came loaded down with heavy weaponry (and even then they needed the gunship to force Grievous back enough for them to get away).

Again the problem is not weakness on the Jedi's part but strength on Grievous'. As I recall he's referred to as one of hte most prolific Jedi killers in quite some time.

Also in the Clone Wars cartoon, Obi-wan was sitting with the Jedi Council. Had he been promoted to become a full member of the Jedi Council? Cos I always figured that he was just some run-the-mill Jedi, with nothing exceptional about him.

So did I, but the ROTS novelization makes it clear that my image of him as a 'typical' Jedi was waaaaaay off the mark. And yes, he's on the council.

[Rommie2006]

Clearly Mace and Yoda qualify as such uber Jedi, but after seeing the Clone Wars cartoon, I found Ki-Adi Mundi and Shaak Ti to be well.. lacking in power.

Shaak Ti as I recall has quite a reputation. As for lacking in power look how she did against those IG-100s, high-end battledroids built to fight Jedi. Problem is that Grievous is a seriously nasty customer, not that the Jedi in question are weak.

In the grevious scene, Shaak Ti got her butt kicked in seconds (and she was a member of the Jedi council right?), while Ki-Adi managed to hold his own barely (if not for the ARC troopers reinforcement I doubt he'll win).

Ki-Adi was pretty much toast. But then as you say he gets rescued by a gunship load of the best non-force sensitive troops in the Republic who came loaded down with heavy weaponry (and even then they needed the gunship to force Grievous back enough for them to get away).

Again the problem is not weakness on the Jedi's part but strength on Grievous'. As I recall he's referred to as one of hte most prolific Jedi killers in quite some time.

Also in the Clone Wars cartoon, Obi-wan was sitting with the Jedi Council. Had he been promoted to become a full member of the Jedi Council? Cos I always figured that he was just some run-the-mill Jedi, with nothing exceptional about him.

Ok point taken. But Mace kicked the hell out of grevious in the first few seconds of seeing him at the end of Clone Wars cartoon. What I'm thinking is that there seems to be a great disparity in power between Mace/Yoda and the other members of the Jedi council, and so I wondered is this normal and to be expected?

So did I, but the ROTS novelization makes it clear that my image of him as a 'typical' Jedi was waaaaaay off the mark. And yes, he's on the council.

Oh ok... I see. Well cant argue with novelization then, but at least they could make him a bit stronger in saber battles, look how Dooku played with him like a rag doll... lol. Perhaps it's obi's wisdom that granted him a seat on the Jedi council.

[Master of Ossus]

All of them have mad skillz, but they are not necessarily the 10 most powerful Jedi in existence.

[SylasGaunt]

Ok point taken. But Mace kicked the hell out of grevious in the first few seconds of seeing him at the end of Clone Wars cartoon. What I'm thinking is that there seems to be a great disparity in power between Mace/Yoda and the other members of the Jedi council, and so I wondered is this normal and to be expected?

That would be because Mace is not only a powerful Jedi but also one of the most offensively oriented. And I imagine it's the case just as there can be massive disparities in ability with any skill or profession.

Oh ok... I see. Well cant argue with novelization then, but at least they could make him a bit stronger in saber battles, look how Dooku played with him like a rag doll... lol. Perhaps it's obi's wisdom that granted him a seat on the Jedi council.

Again, his opponent's strenght not his weakness.

Dooku is far more experienced. Further Obi-Wan's style of lightsaber fighting is the basic Jedi style, oriented towards deflection and optimized for fighting opponents with blasters like most of the Jedi out there. Dooku on the other hand uses a fencing style more suited to fighting someone with a lightsaber.

Obi-wan is also considered THE master of his particular lightsaber form (3 I think but I'm not sure) in the order, as well as a shining example of what a jedi is supposed to be.

Anakin is repeatedly stated to be one of the most powerful Jedi of all time yet they refuse to put him on the council for a number of reasons. Raw power isn't what tends to get you on there (makes sense considering you can be the greatest swordsman ever and still be a shitty leader).

[Rommie2006]

Ok point taken. But Mace kicked the hell out of grevious in the first few seconds of seeing him at the end of Clone Wars cartoon. What I'm thinking is that there seems to be a great disparity in power between Mace/Yoda and the other members of the Jedi council, and so I wondered is this normal and to be expected?

That would be because Mace is not only a powerful Jedi but also one of the most offensively oriented. And I imagine it's the case just as there can be massive disparities in ability with any skill or profession.

Oh ok... I see. Well cant argue with novelization then, but at least they could make him a bit stronger in saber battles, look how Dooku played with him like a rag doll... lol. Perhaps it's obi's wisdom that granted him a seat on the Jedi council.

Again, his opponent's strenght not his weakness.

Dooku is far more experienced. Further Obi-Wan's style of lightsaber fighting is the basic Jedi style, oriented towards deflection and optimized for fighting opponents with blasters like most of the Jedi out there. Dooku on the other hand uses a fencing style more suited to fighting someone with a lightsaber.

Obi-wan is also considered THE master of his particular lightsaber form (3 I think but I'm not sure) in the order, as well as a shining example of what a jedi is supposed to be.

Anakin is repeatedly stated to be one of the most powerful Jedi of all time yet they refuse to put him on the council for a number of reasons. Raw power isn't what tends to get you on there (makes sense considering you can be the greatest swordsman ever and still be a shitty leader).

Ok point taken. I take this is from AOTC novelisation or from some EU, that part on Obi being the shining example of form 3 saber style?
So I guess if we put Dooku and Obi each in one room with dozens of droidekas and they start deflecting, Dooku should theoratically fall first cos he's specialised in anti-jedi combat?

[VT-16]

and so I wondered is this normal and to be expected?

I don´t think there is any requirement for Council members to be powerful, you certainly don´t need to be good with a lightsabre if most of your job involves debating/analyzing/deep thinking.

[SylasGaunt]

Ok point taken. I take this is from AOTC novelisation or from some EU, that part on Obi being the shining example of form 3 saber style?
So I guess if we put Dooku and Obi each in one room with dozens of droidekas and they start deflecting, Dooku should theoratically fall first cos he's specialised in anti-jedi combat?

The ROTS novelization, something stated by Mace Windu at that.

And theoretically yes, because that's what Kenobi's sword style focuses on defense manuevers.

[Spartan]

Ki-Adi was on was made a council member before, he was ever a master. In TPM novelization it was stated that he had a special incite into the force, because of his species unique brain structure. Opi Raciss <spelling> was on the council because he was a master stategist. Yaddle was on the council and she never even learned to use a lightsabre, or completed her formal training. The impression I get is that the Masters on the coucil are chosen for wisdon, experience and unique abilities. They lead and guide the order, no need for them to all be super warriors. Indeed, several get killed or best very easily in the years between TPM and ATOC.

[Petrosjko]

The Council is a political body like any other, and it is skill in politics and following the prevailing winds of Jedi groupthink that earns one a seat. Witness Obi-Wan's mention to Qui-Gonn that he could be on the Council if he just learned to keep his mouth shut.

While their seniority and experience would make any member of the Council formidable, it in no way reflects their raw ability as Jedi.

[Crazedwraith]

Ok point taken. But Mace kicked the hell out of grevious in the first few seconds of seeing him at the end of Clone Wars cartoon. What I'm thinking is that there seems to be a great disparity in power between Mace/Yoda and the other members of the Jedi council, and so I wondered is this normal and to be expected?

Witness, the Dooku/Greivous spar in chapter 22. Besides Mace actually didn't fight Grevious he simply got there when Grevious was doing a runner.

Greivous goes: Wah! 4 sabres ph3ar me!

And mace bitch slaps him with a TK crush. Becuase he wasn't on close quarters being attacked with four sabers at once. All the other Jedi grevious faced had actively to defend themselves as he rushed them so they had no time to choke, crush etc.

[Stravo]

On the wisdom trait for Masters - especially in regards to Mace I just don't see it. Geonosis was a fucking disaster and its all on Mace's head. He walked into the arena wihtout proper recon, intel, or troops. He had a pouporri of Masters, Knights, padawans (one was clearly 14 yo) who never worked together before as a unit and just expected Dooku - A Jedi Master and his CIS allies to simply hand over Obi Wan and Anakin.

Clearly if they were making sport of killing these two Jedi, one a very reputable Jedi whom they KNEW the Council had sent to Geonosis and the other a darling of the Supreme Chancellor's - they were not afriad of letting it be known that they were killing Jedi and as a consequence not afriad of the Jedi Response.

Mace knew going in that the foundries were in the midst of creating a droid army. (Obi Wan's report)

Yet his master plan is to walk up to Dooku alone and confront him on a balcony with a Mandalorian super commando, several trade federation representatives who are never far from a contingent of battle droids and a Jedi Master who is considered one of the greatest duelist in the order.

Then his only real threat of force is a handful of Jedi who are outnumbered by the spectators alone on an order of a 1,000 to one?

Mace Windu deserved the spanking he got and worse. That's not wisdom at all. Frankly I don't see someone like Qui Gon (not on the council) making a move like that. Obi Wan never makes a move like that either. He knows when to be quiet, when to be cautious, when to fight and when to run. (witness his insertion into Geonosis, his pentration of the Death Star) All Mace knows how to do is glower and swing his lightsaber with all the beauty and grace of a retarded badger. (Let's not discuss his rep as a great deulist because from what I've seen it looks like he's having an epileptic fit when he swings his blade.)

Frankly Obi Wan and Anakin were not worth the lives lost in the arena on a strictly numbers basis. Wisom is about making those hard choices.

[SylasGaunt]

On the wisdom trait for Masters - especially in regards to Mace I just don't see it. Geonosis was a fucking disaster and its all on Mace's head. He walked into the arena wihtout proper recon, intel, or troops. He had a pouporri of Masters, Knights, padawans (one was clearly 14 yo) who never worked together before as a unit and just expected Dooku - A Jedi Master and his CIS allies to simply hand over Obi Wan and Anakin.

To be perfectly fair to Mace, look who he was there with. A huge number of Jedi, against (as far as he knew) the Geonosians (who we plainly saw weren't about to stick around and fight for the most part), Dooku (powerful but he can't stand alone against that many Jedi), Jango (pwned), and the heads of the Trade Federation.. and hey we've been told they're cowards from the start.

Problem was that Dooku had a better trump card in reserve in the form of a triple-wide assload of droids (1,000,000+ B1s deployed during the battle for Geonosis). That said he should have just cut off Dooku's head there and ended it, and their tactics in the Arena were fucking stupid.

Mace knew going in that the foundries were in the midst of creating a droid army. (Obi Wan's report)

If I remember right from the novel, what he didn't count on was just how damn many droids Dooku had on hand.

Yet his master plan is to walk up to Dooku alone and confront him on a balcony with a Mandalorian super commando, several trade federation representatives who are never far from a contingent of battle droids and a Jedi Master who is considered one of the greatest duelist in the order.

Mace is also one of the greatest swordsmen in the order, and without the timely arrival of the SBDs I don't doubt that the Trade Fed guys would have surrendered on the spot if pressured. Hell, they needed a sith lord to prod them along in TPM.

Then his only real threat of force is a handful of Jedi who are outnumbered by the spectators alone on an order of a 1,000 to one?

They knew the spectators weren't a factor.. aside from a few warriors pretty much all the Geonosians high-tailed it out of there as soon as the lightsabers came on.

Frankly Obi Wan and Anakin were not worth the lives lost in the arena on a strictly numbers basis. Wisom is about making those hard choices.

Certainly not going to disagree with you there. Particularly when you consider that most of the Jedi present were users of the 'diplomat's' form.. i.e. not all that combat oriented and had no business being in amidst that kind of firepower (in fact as I recall most of that form's users got killed off in the arena).

[Crown]

To answer the orginal question;

<Yoda, TESB>War doesn't make one great.</Yoda, TESB>

This was obviously a retort to Luke's assertation that he was looking for a great 'warrior'.

[Stravo]

To answer the orginal question;

<Yoda, TESB>War doesn't make one great.</Yoda, TESB>

This was obviously a retort to Luke's assertation that he was looking for a great 'warrior'.

Could also be Yoda lamenting that they all got caught up in the Clone Wars and didn't realize a 15 inch dildo was on the way towards the Jedi's collective virgin ass. The war was hardly the Jedi's finest hour.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Bet there are a few mostly political nominations.

[Crown]

To answer the orginal question;

<Yoda, TESB>War doesn't make one great.</Yoda, TESB>

This was obviously a retort to Luke's assertation that he was looking for a great 'warrior'.

Could also be Yoda lamenting that they all got caught up in the Clone Wars and didn't realize a 15 inch dildo was on the way towards the Jedi's collective virgin ass. The war was hardly the Jedi's finest hour.

No. That would imply a different point of view than mine situation when analysing Star Wars, which is clearly wrong.

[Kurgan]

Ki-Adi was on was made a council member before, he was ever a master. In TPM novelization it was stated that he had a special incite into the force, because of his species unique brain structure. Opi Raciss <spelling> was on the council because he was a master stategist. Yaddle was on the council and she never even learned to use a lightsabre, or completed her formal training. The impression I get is that the Masters on the coucil are chosen for wisdon, experience and unique abilities. They lead and guide the order, no need for them to all be super warriors. Indeed, several get killed or best very easily in the years between TPM and ATOC.

Yaddle never learned to use a lightsaber... what???

So a "Jedi Master" who didn't know how to use a saber.. interesting. If she didn't complete her training, wouldn't she be a Padawan? Honorary Master then? So many questions... (did she sleep her way to the top?)

[SylasGaunt]

*resists urge to make a joke involving that and Ki-adi's head*

[Spartan]

Yaddle never learned to use a lightsaber... what???

So a "Jedi Master" who didn't know how to use a saber.. interesting. If she didn't complete her training, wouldn't she be a Padawan? Honorary Master then? So many questions... (did she sleep her way to the top?)

Yes...its quite the retarded story actually, from Jedi Council comics post-TPM. You see Yaddle while still a padawan like 200-300 year before TPM, acompanied her master - who was human and apparently a idiot to a war torn planet. They promptly are attacked. He uses his sabre, while Yaddle uses...well a quarter staff...I mean seriously a simple wooden staff. They get owned, her master loses his head and she is imprisoned for like a hundred years on the planet. Eventually, she gives up her anger toward the natives and gains enlightenment...or some shit. She escapes and manages to safe the people from themselves. Finally, she makes it back to Courscant. The rest of the Jedi Council wants to make her a Master and put her on the council, due to her enlighten state...blah-blah-blah..... Yoda ofcourse is like fuck no! She ain't trained...she's still a padawan. Of course the council then over rules Yoda...they seem to do that a lot, don't they?

Did she sleep her way to the top...well Yoda eventually did except her on the council. We don't she her anymore after TPM, maybe they're was a little green love child involved.

[Kurgan]

Sounds like they took some of the former (fanon?) backstory for Yoda and foisted it conveniently on this "dead" character. Maybe I'm cynical, but after hearing about Jango's grandpa taking on Fett's old bio, it makes me wonder...

I remember when we thought (before the prequels) that it was meaningful that Yoda didn't have a lightsaber in the OT... that he'd become so wise in the force that he'd "transcended the need for weapons." Then AOTC comes along and we see he's the jumping dervish of a fighter with the best of them and he's got a nice green saber (his hilt appeared in the TPM VD, but I don't remember ever seeing it in the movie.. I thought I recalled hearing that the prop they used in the book was created specifically for that source, but it must have been Lucas's intention as early as 1999 in any case). Granted, the Jedi Knight novelisation (circa 1997) said Yoda had a lightsaber in the old republic era (and it was green too IIRC), so it must have been a fanon thing that Yoda "didn't need a lightsaber because he was so strong in the force."

Ditto with Palpatine (though Dark Empire showed us "young palpaclone" using one, even if he got owned by Luke). Turns out he had a saber and was good with it "all along."


It's interesting that Jedi Academy (the game) had plans to include "lightsaber less Uber Jedi Masters" (on both Dark and Light Sides of the Force) you could play as that were nixed at the last minute (you can see view them in the game's source files). There were some enemies that were that way though, in the single player campaign.

[Spartan]

Actually isn't that a Thrawn trilogy invention. Remember Jorrus C'boath never used a light sabre, he tossed stuff around with the with the force.

ITW: OT said that Yoda still had his lightsabre during the OT, he kept it in storage but apparently did not need to use it.

[Kurgan]

I always associated the notion with Yoda, but I could be wrong. Maybe the notion rubbed off on him, another powerful force user we never saw with a lightsaber (until the prequels)?

[FireNexus]

Frankly Obi Wan and Anakin were not worth the lives lost in the arena on a strictly numbers basis. Wisom is about making those hard choices.

Anakin was the chosen one, who would bring balance to the force. These are a highly religious folk. He is basically Christ to them, and the vast majority of them believe. *spoiler*Even though Windu acts as if he doesn't think Anakin is the chosen one (for the most part) he definitely references his position in the novelization.*spoiler* To let him die is unacceptable to the jedi at that point (though they'd have been better off if they did, it seems).

[Jim Raynor]

Actually isn't that a Thrawn trilogy invention. Remember Jorrus C'boath never used a light sabre, he tossed stuff around with the with the force.

ITW: OT said that Yoda still had his lightsabre during the OT, he kept it in storage but apparently did not need to use it.

Giving up your lightsaber as a requirement to become a Master was never stated in any official or canon source, to the best of my knowledge. It was a huge brainbug that a lot of people got from watching the movies, in which neither Yoda or the Emperor used lightsabers. Of course, Yoda was never in a situation where he needed to fight, and the Emperor never intended to duel either, but most people never seemed to understand that. My friends, who were more casual fans who probably never even saw any of the "fanon," believed in this too. My guess is that Zahn either got the brainbug as well, or patterned C'Baoth after the Emperor when he was writing the Thrawn Trilogy.