Why not Just Clone a Skywalker?

[Spartan]

We know that Sidious has wanted to make Anakin his apprentice for a long time. Then bam Anakin is gravely injured after his duel with Kenobi. Why didn't the he just clone himself a new golden boy? Later he's all hot to turn Luke who even more powerful to the darkside. Why didn't he just clone Luke after TESB. I mean seriously unless he was keeping it as a momento, he must have had some plan for Luke's lost hand. We know it's possible, Luuke Skywalker, Jorrus Cyboth, himself, etc.

[Elheru Aran]

As mentioned in the clone-limb thread, there is obviously a reason, aside from perhaps being less convenient, that the Jedi attach cybernetic limbs instead of cloning replacement limbs, and this is most likely related to the Force. By extension, then, a clone of the Skywalker would have the same difficulties/flaws in their use of the Force.

[Solauren]

Clone Insanity.

Remember, Clones in the force resonate off each other.
Imagine the resonation level between a Jedi Knight and a clone....

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Because clones suck compared to originals with the Force.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Clone Insanity.

That only happens when you grow them for less than a year.

[Stark]

How bout... Anakin is magic, and has been using magic his whole life without knowing it, and THAT's why his count is so high, not genetics. Indeed, since its all magic, he doesn't HAVE a father.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Force sensitivity is larger than simply warming up a genetic clone. Palpatine's clones were probably as powerful as him only because he also inhabited them with his original spirit.

[Spartan]

As mentioned in the clone-limb thread, there is obviously a reason, aside from perhaps being less convenient, that the Jedi attach cybernetic limbs instead of cloning replacement limbs, and this is most likely related to the Force. By extension, then, a clone of the Skywalker would have the same difficulties/flaws in their use of the Force.

While, true wouldn't those Skywalker clones still be more effective than, the mooks he used in DE? Sedriss and the other Dark Jedi were pathetic. They got owned by Luke's half assed trainees. Sovereign Protectors, indeed.

If the cloning is good enough for Palp's, why not some high powered cannon fodder. Luuke Skywalker, seemed to function pretty well, and was not under powered compared to the original.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Sedriss wasn't exactly a Dark Jedi. He was more just a Force-sensitive with some training, IIRC.

[Civil War Man]

Four words: The Boys from Brazil.

Genetics can only determine so much. A person's general body makeup and a few basic facets of their personality are determined in such a way. The rest is up to the person's upbringing. So you clone a new Anakin, and then what? Without copying his upbringing completely (and even if you did it's a little sketchy), you can not guarantee that the clone you get will be an exact copy of the person you want. Many of Anakin's mental problems stem from his attachment to his mother. Clone Anakin would have no mother. How would that change the way Clone Anakin acts? Would he be as susceptible to the darkside? Moreso? Less?

And then there's training, which opens up a whole new set of problems. Anakin was very Force sensitive, but beyond being a decent podracer he could do jack shit until he was trained. Clone Anakin would not be receiving Obi-Wan's tutelage. I suppose Palpatine could train Clone Anakin himself, but a) that would take years, and b) just like stated in the previous point, there's little to no guarantee that Clone Anakin will ever end up as powerful as Anakin rebuilt as Vader.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You forget about flash programming.

[Civil War Man]

Flash programming can only go so far. IIRC, even the clone troopers have live instructors.

[Praxis]

Clone Insanity.

Remember, Clones in the force resonate off each other.
Imagine the resonation level between a Jedi Knight and a clone....

Thats EXACTLY what happened between Luke and his clone in The Last Command.

[Spartan]

Genetics can only determine so much. A person's general body makeup and a few basic facets of their personality are determined in such a way. The rest is up to the person's upbringing.

I don't see a problem, an exact copy of Anakin is not needed. Anakins experiences need not be replicated. Indeed, why would you want to.

So you clone a new Anakin, and then what? Without copying his upbringing completely (and even if you did it's a little sketchy), you can not guarantee that the clone you get will be an exact copy of the person you want.

Again an exact copy of the person is not necessary or even desirable. An infant Anakin can be raised and trained from birth just as Palpatine did with Darth Maul.

Many of Anakin's mental problems stem from his attachment to his mother. Clone Anakin would have no mother. How would that change the way Clone Anakin acts? Would he be as susceptible to the darkside? Moreso? Less?

All of Anakins hang ups are irrelevant. The clone will be indoctrinated either by Palpatine himself or his adepts on Byss. Even, flash learning is not necessary. It's not like the Emperor was effectively immortal, he has plenty of time.

And then there's training, which opens up a whole new set of problems. Anakin was very Force sensitive, but beyond being a decent podracer he could do jack shit until he was trained. Clone Anakin would not be receiving Obi-Wan's tutelage. I suppose Palpatine could train Clone Anakin himself, but a) that would take years, and b) just like stated in the previous point, there's little to no guarantee that Clone Anakin will ever end up as powerful as Anakin rebuilt as Vader.

First off Palapatine has a whole planet full of Darkside underlings to handle the initial training, if need be. Given the advanced nature of cloning in SW; please give evidence that a cloned Anakin would be substantially weaker that the rebuilt Vader. Luke's Clone was not weaker than him, and C'both was quite possible as well. Regardless mechanical Vader would still be weaker given his cybornetics as per the ROTS: VD.

[Kurgan]

EU authors take note... retreive the severed forearm of Anakin's that he lost to Dooku, and create Aanakin Skywalker (or Anakiin Skywalker, or Anaakin...)


Also, give those Clonetroopers names, dangit! Jaaaaaaaaaango Fett, reporting for duty, sir!

[Praxis]

J(a^31)ngo Fett reporting for duty, sir!

[Civil War Man]

I don't see a problem, an exact copy of Anakin is not needed. Anakins experiences need not be replicated. Indeed, why would you want to.

All of Anakins hang ups are irrelevant. The clone will be indoctrinated either by Palpatine himself or his adepts on Byss. Even, flash learning is not necessary. It's not like the Emperor was effectively immortal, he has plenty of time.

Anakin's hangups constitute a large part of Anakin's identity, and a large part of his motivation to excel in the areas he did. To call it trivial is basically calling all of his Jedi training trivial. An Anakin indoctrinated by Palpatine from birth is going to be fundamentally different from the Anakin who becomes Darth Vader, and such a difference can affect how powerful he is.

First off Palapatine has a whole planet full of Darkside underlings to handle the initial training, if need be. Given the advanced nature of cloning in SW; please give evidence that a cloned Anakin would be substantially weaker that the rebuilt Vader. Luke's Clone was not weaker than him, and C'both was quite possible as well. Regardless mechanical Vader would still be weaker given his cybornetics as per the ROTS: VD.

For starters, I was not implying that a cloned Anakin would automatically be weaker. I was saying there is no guarantee that he would be just as powerful, or more powerful. As for both Luuke and Joruus, I'd go so far as to say their potential was probably on par with their originals, but the clone madness they both had would seriously hinder their ability to realize it (addendum: during the battle, Luuke was also being controlled by Joruus, when Joruus was distracted, Luuke was quickly taken down by Mara Jade, who had neither original Luke's power nor his training).

With the exception of Maul (who seemed to be trained more as a weapon than an apprentice), Palpatine has had a tendency to leave the training of his underlings incomplete, in order to prevent them from eventually being a threat to them (I would argue that he rebuilt Anakin into Vader precisely for this reason, to leave him handicapped and therefore much less of a threat). His most powerful apprentices (Dooku and Anakin) received training from the Jedi (and two of the most powerful Jedi of that day). Who's to say that Palpatine training a clone Anakin wouldn't do precisely what he has done with pretty much every single apprentice he has had beforehand?

On the other hand, his "whole planet full of Darkside underlings" would be poorly equipped towards training Anakin, even in initial stages (heck, in order to make better Knights, the Jedi Order uses Yoda, easily one of the wisest and most powerful Jedi ever, as a preschool teacher). Many Sovereign Protectors, Darktroopers, Emperor's Hands, etc, have little more than a basic understanding of the Force themselves. Most of their understanding (using Mara Jade as an example) is centered on increasing fighting capability and receiving orders telepathically. Educating a clone Anakin that way would leave him with little more depth in Force ability, which could seriously detrament the further development of his powers, as it would not provide him an adequate foundation to build upon.

[His Divine Shadow]

Force sensitivity is larger than simply warming up a genetic clone. Palpatine's clones were probably as powerful as him only because he also inhabited them with his original spirit.

I am suddenly reminded of the fact that Joruus C'baoth didn't seem to suffer from any darkside problems nor any clone related degenerative problems, and he was powerfull too, so was Luuke Skywalker.

[Praxis]

Force sensitivity is larger than simply warming up a genetic clone. Palpatine's clones were probably as powerful as him only because he also inhabited them with his original spirit.

I am suddenly reminded of the fact that Joruus C'baoth didn't seem to suffer from any darkside problems nor any clone related degenerative problems, and he was powerfull too, so was Luuke Skywalker.

Although the original Jorus C'baoth was dead. Had the original been anywhere nearby it would have likely severely detracted at least one of them.

And Joruus WAS insane.

[His Divine Shadow]

Although the original Jorus C'baoth was dead. Had the original been anywhere nearby it would have likely severely detracted at least one of them.

And Joruus WAS insane.

Well Joruus was insane but that was the cloning process, and the fact remains that even though Joruus is supposedly one step removed from natural life he isn't degenerating like the emperors clone bodies did.

[Crown]

Although the original Jorus C'baoth was dead. Had the original been anywhere nearby it would have likely severely detracted at least one of them.

And Joruus WAS insane.

Well Joruus was insane but that was the cloning process, and the fact remains that even though Joruus is supposedly one step removed from natural life he isn't degenerating like the emperors clone bodies did.

I think if we introduce the concept of 'spirit' or 'soul' we can explain why the Emperor's clones carcked it so rapidly, and explain why Joruus C'boath didn't suffer from the same illness. In essense the Reborn Emperor was a body snatcher, and the bodies rebelled/whatever, while Joruus C'boath was a different 'soul', 'spirit', whatever than Jorus C'boath, explaining why his body didn't carck it so quickly.

On the insanity note, it was due to him being grown too fast. We know before Thrawn descovered the Force resonance, the min was one year, but from the duel between Luke and Luuke it is quite possible that for Force sensitives, you'd need a longer gestation time to stop the warping of the clone's mind - which is what Thrawn theorised in TLC for his ultimate plan for 10's of cloned Joruus' running around the place.

[Spartan]

For starters, I was not implying that a cloned Anakin would automatically be weaker. I was saying there is no guarantee that he would be just as powerful, or more powerful.

I disagree, there's no reason for him to be substancially weaker than borg-Vader. Given canon statements and GL' commentary that borg-Vader is far weaker than his original potential. The ROTS novelization says he's lost so much power its as if he were blinded. That sound like he's seriously handicaped, compared to his old self.

As for both Luuke and Joruus, I'd go so far as to say their potential was probably on par with their originals, but the clone madness they both had would seriously hinder their ability to realize it (addendum: during the battle, Luuke was also being controlled by Joruus, when Joruus was distracted, Luuke was quickly taken down by Mara Jade, who had neither original Luke's power nor his training).

No surprise there, as Joruus undoubtedly corrupted (and probably damaged) Luukes mind. Remember what he did to General Corvell, remember what he did to the Chimera's bridge crew. Joruus was not sane, how he used Luuke, is in no way representative of what Palpatine could do or is capable.

With the exception of Maul (who seemed to be trained more as a weapon than an apprentice), Palpatine has had a tendency to leave the training of his underlings incomplete, in order to prevent them from eventually being a threat to them (I would argue that he rebuilt Anakin into Vader precisely for this reason, to leave him handicapped and therefore much less of a threat). His most powerful apprentices (Dooku and Anakin) received training from the Jedi (and two of the most powerful Jedi of that day). Who's to say that Palpatine training a clone Anakin wouldn't do precisely what he has done with pretty much every single apprentice he has had beforehand?

You can not be serious. Surely you are not implying that Palapatine, a fully trained Sith Lord is incapable of training an apprentice as well as the Jedi.

Spoiler:

Palpatine did not want Anakin damaged in fact he was furious when he found out. So know he did not intentionally neuter Vader. In fact he tells Yoda that Vader will be more powerful that the both of them.

Palpatine at the time of the prequels was not immortal. He needed to have a powerful, successor. He wanted someone who was powerful and yet young enough to mold as his replacement. Maul was never intended to be that replacement (alien - and probably the best he could get), nor Tyrannus (far to old), nor Syfo-Dias (for what ever reason). Which is why he wanted Anakin, and later Luke. The ones you mention don't matter, because they were tools he didn't care about them. Anakin he genuinely cared about, and in his twisted way had affection for.

On the other hand, his "whole planet full of Darkside underlings" would be poorly equipped towards training Anakin, even in initial stages (heck, in order to make better Knights, the Jedi Order uses Yoda, easily one of the wisest and most powerful Jedi ever, as a preschool teacher). Many Sovereign Protectors, Darktroopers, Emperor's Hands, etc, have little more than a basic understanding of the Force themselves. Most of their understanding (using Mara Jade as an example) is centered on increasing fighting capability and receiving orders telepathically. Educating a clone Anakin that way would leave him with little more depth in Force ability, which could seriously detriment the further development of his powers, as it would not provide him an adequate foundation to build upon.

I can't disagree with most of that. But, while your correct about most of the darksiders being worthless. Palpatine did have powerful darksiders as well. Lord Hethor (trained by Vader), Lady Lumia (who was Sith trained), Jerec (fallen Jedi knight), Seriss (fallen Jedi knight), Joruus (cloned jedi master), any of the Royal Inquisitors (all were at least as capable as typical old republic Jedi knights they were intended to convert/kill). Any other mentioned fallen Jedi (the Sepratists had several). Their would be ample teachers, if the Emperor so chose.

Any difficulties with training Maul, could have simply come from the fact that at the time of his training. Palpatine was already in politics and could only train him in seclusion.

[Civil War Man]

Points taken, except I was not saying Palpatine was incapable of training an apprentice. I was saying that he was intentionally leaving the training of his apprentices incomplete.

Not spoilers, but a response to the spoilers:
Palpatine wanting a successor might be another reason why he does not clone Anakin. Anakin as Vader would have been powerful enough as a successor, while cloning Anakin and training him from scratch would not be guaranteed. If something were to happen to Palpatine before clone Anakin was fully trained and ready for the job, then the Empire probably goes down the shitter.

And finally, with the potential of other Darksiders as a teacher, I think our discussion in that area might have been a little unnecessary, since even if they were qualified to teach a clone Anakin, I doubt Palpatine would have trusted them with the job. He'd probably do it himself to a) make sure it is done right, and b) make sure the other darksider doesn't train clone Anakin to turn on him.

[Connor MacLeod]

We know that Sidious has wanted to make Anakin his apprentice for a long time. Then bam Anakin is gravely injured after his duel with Kenobi. Why didn't the he just clone himself a new golden boy? Later he's all hot to turn Luke who even more powerful to the darkside. Why didn't he just clone Luke after TESB. I mean seriously unless he was keeping it as a momento, he must have had some plan for Luke's lost hand. We know it's possible, Luuke Skywalker, Jorrus Cyboth, himself, etc.

Consider the situation. Palpy has just fished his prized pupil (and one of the major targets of his ambitions for over a decade) out of a lava pit after getting his ass kicked by someone who is supposed to be weaker than he is. I imagine Palpy was none too pleased (even given his intentions with Anakin).

Given that, he would likely have "punished" Anakin by disallowing cloned limb replacements or by turning him into that machine/monster (possibly by the time Anakin realizes what has happened, its too late to remove the machines and regrow his limbs without killing him.) In fact, Anakin's failure might very well have signaled a change of heart (and plans) for Palpy where Anakin was concerned - he became simply another puppet or tool, rather than the desired and hoped-for "apprentice." (Which in turn leads to Palpy's "body snatcher" tactics.) Hell, he WAS going to drop Anakin for Luke after all.

Of course, ,we know Palpy could probably have transferred Anakin's spirt to a new clone body (out of the old), but again, Anakin fucked up so why should he be rewarded? But he probably would have told Anakin about it and held it out as a reward for faithful service (and as another way ot keep Anakin from betraying and killing him.)

[Junghalli]

I disagree, there's no reason for him to be substancially weaker than borg-Vader. Given canon statements and GL' commentary that borg-Vader is far weaker than his original potential. The ROTS novelization says he's lost so much power its as if he were blinded. That sound like he's seriously handicaped, compared to his old self.

Palpatine wanted his servants to be weak, because that way they wouldn't be a threat to him. Full-power Anakin might have been too strong for him to be completely confident in his ability to control him.